Malcolm Turncoat's imploding act

 
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
I don't think our defense force is every going to keep the Chinese at bay and nor do they intend to try. More aimed at our Northern closer neighbors me thinks.
Wrong again - the specific purpose of those submarines is supposedly to keep our sea-lanes open during crisis or war so that we don't get completely cut off again as we did in WWII. Who (in our region) has the capacity to cut off our sea-lanes? Think about it.
Wait until China hits the export market!
China and Thailand have very high barriers to importing foreign vehicles; whereas we dropped our barriers almost completely. Did it ever occur to you that unfair trade practice is the core reason behind the demise of the car industry? Our industry was not operating on a level playing field - if it was we would have maintained reciprocal barriers against Thailand (for a start) but Howard refused to do that after he signed the Thai-Australia free trade deal; they refused to allow Ford to export cars to Thailand under the same arrangement that Ford imported cars into Australia from Thailand so that was the death knell for manufacturing in Australia. The government would not go in to bat for it.

We simply can't compete against a nation with no unions, superannuation, workers compensation and OH&S while they pay their workers $4 an hour, not with our average metro house prices being as high as they are.
OFFS Don, if you think its a forced majure with China then why bother having a defense force at all? It will be economically impossible for a country of 25m to fend off a country of 1.5B if they so choose to want to blockade you. I was in China two weeks ago, things are not what they appear from the outside.

The purpose of the ADF is to defend against local aggression, in the event of the major conflict with China Australia will require the assistance of the USA and other allies to protect it self and will contribute its own resources to that defense.  

Actually China doesn't have high trade barriers on cars and they announced recently to drop to 15% this year and as low as 8% on some imported parts. Chinese govt is readying its domestic makers for large scale export and they are doing this by progressively making them more competitive through less protection and as they improve their quality and safety.

Totally agree with you that there is and was unfair trade barriers and if you look back into your memory cells I have previously stated Australia needs to wise up and match like for like. Free trade is free provided its free in both directions.

Total cost of employment in developing countries is frequently under reported in Australian Media and as someone who has worked in both India and UAE I can assure you things are rarely what they seem. Australian employers have little accountability for employee welfare outside their salary, bonus and Super. Developing countries also have to deal with lower productivity and fatter Supervisory workforce as Managers are less multi skilled and usual one man one job BS. On coal face again its one man one job. So it takes four people to change a light bulb etc and its neigh impossible to have workers work alone without supervision if you want something done. Indian productivity is rated as low as 10% vs Canadian in some construction projects I have been close with, but usually around 30%. That means they need 10 x the workforce to as low as 3 x the workforce.  

As I audit potential suppliers in other countries, here's some info for you

India,
- employees pay 12.5% and employers pay 12.5% to their super funds
- Medical is covered by company
- Accommodation, all food, transport is covered by company, senior staff they will make the pay something
- One copper smelter, pays all education, food, accommodation, health including 2 x year check up for all workers including their extended families in the local village that supplies the labour
- It is common for employers to fund their daughters weddings or part of of male employees
- While OHS is improving, the hardest part is making them use it. If they don't want they can rarely be forced or they go on strike.
- Sacking someone, god they'd just about have to kill the CEO for that to happen!
- Annual leave when added all up is often equal to or more than Australia
- Factory safety standards are improving, but not as bad as many think overall.
- Productivity is very low

China, was there last month
- safety standards in many factories we went too would be equal too or often better than Australia, especially public infrastructure projects. New factories have higher standards than old, but they are all exposed to a monthly govt audit for safety and env. Fail, you close then and there.
- If they have migrant workers, accommodation is provided
- Food is provided as standard
- If business goes down, its not politically correct to just sack your workforce.
- The have company funded medical and pension schemes
- Productivity is still an challenge for them

UAE
- We pay $2000 starting to $4000/mth more experienced for operator salaries
- All accommodation, transport, all food, sporting facilities, medical
- Annual airfare home and 5 weeks leave
- Education allowance, airfare for wife can kick in for higher non-supervisory grades.
- 1 weeks bereavement leave for immediate family members
- Bonus is usually 1-3mths pay, depending on performance.
- Try to fire someone, hahaha!
- We are moving towards western productivity levels, but hampered by legacy management practices, mindsets, bottom of barrel contractor employment. A recent project in mid west USA we are looking at we found the smelter there would have lower manning costs than our own using so called lower cost Southern Asian labour. As such the flavor of the year is now automation.

Oh, we started to accept material, 0.5t steel bars with machining and copper inserted inside them from Luxuemberg as they are now competitive against our usual Indian Supply chain! An similar machine shop in Belgium was rejected due to poor standards, safety and equipment.

Sponsored advertisement

  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Well you have a nasty habit of changing course and going off on a side track when the argument doesn't go your way, so not always easy to follow exactly what your on about.
RTT_Rules
You could be talking about yourself there.
No I don't know for sureand may I point out your argument is equally baseless, but if time prevails I may look it up, but in a recession or at least the one I live through, ex-factory workers seemed to be a bit too common especially if they sell consumer goods to the domestic market. Production falls, you lay people off, makes sense. Middle and upper Management tend to hang around a bit longer.
RTT_Rules
How is my argument "equally baseless"? You made a totally unsubstantiated claim and then don't back it up with any evidence whatsoever and then you accuse me of doing the same thing. Where did I do that?
Actually China doesn't have high trade barriers on cars and they announced recently to drop to 15% this year and as low as 8% on some imported parts.
RTT_Rules
15% is still very high and until recently it was almost impossible for companies like GM and Ford to get their products into China without a Chinese trade partner. Ditto Thailand - their now huge auto industry was built on the back of enormous trade barriers.

Free-trade is rubbish; its an illusion.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Well you have a nasty habit of changing course and going off on a side track when the argument doesn't go your way, so not always easy to follow exactly what your on about.
You could be talking about yourself there.
No I don't know for sureand may I point out your argument is equally baseless, but if time prevails I may look it up, but in a recession or at least the one I live through, ex-factory workers seemed to be a bit too common especially if they sell consumer goods to the domestic market. Production falls, you lay people off, makes sense. Middle and upper Management tend to hang around a bit longer.
How is my argument "equally baseless"? You made a totally unsubstantiated claim and then don't back it up with any evidence whatsoever and then you accuse me of doing the same thing. Where did I do that?
Actually China doesn't have high trade barriers on cars and they announced recently to drop to 15% this year and as low as 8% on some imported parts.
15% is still very high and until recently it was almost impossible for companies like GM and Ford to get their products into China without a Chinese trade partner. Ditto Thailand - their now huge auto industry was built on the back of enormous trade barriers.

Free-trade is rubbish; its an illusion.
don_dunstan
No Sim's, you are the Master side tracker, I'll leave you to wear the crown. Go back and read the Tesla debate. So many completely wrong statements, no one "my mistake", or discuss the facts, just head off another direction with another statement.

You said
When the next recession/depression arrives we won't have manufacturing to help us ride through it.
What is your basis for this?

My opinion and experience from the 1992 recession in Tasmania is that manufacturing sector closing and cut backs was the large source of job losses. My experience in the GFC and other industry cut backs is that RTA and others cut production and production based jobs, but only trimmed the leadership, higher skilled and support roles on the basis that you still need people at that end of the business to do specific roles that are not production unit related and for the rebound.

If however you are exporting to countries not in the poo as we are, then yes jobs are unaffected, but if you are making cars to sell to the local market and 5% of the population has lost its job, another 5-25% taken pay cuts and in fear of loosing their job. Well buying a car is far from their priority.

Its no secret to most that the Developing and Emerging Markets often require local partner taking 51% ownership in any foreign investment or you operate in Free Zones like the biggest in the world 10km from my house here in Dubai where 100% ownership is allowed but you pay higher company fees and taxes. No surprise there! Its a two way street in that it makes it less attractive to invest into that market and you don't have the same control of your business. On the other hand growth in these markets is often way exceeding developing countries and hence this years $1M turn over is next years $10M turn over.

China is now dropping their trade barriers on cars, shortly 15% which is at a level that basically has minimal impact on car selection by the customer. If you want an Audi you will buy an Audi and wear a few thousand dollar extra price tag. However selling into China has few restrictions apart from tariffs, ask Tesla on this. No local production, yet, but lots of Tesla's there.

And finally why do you keep trying to argue to me what I've already stated I agree with on you. Level playing fields should be well Level! The whole Ford-Thailand BS should never have been allowed to happen.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
The Australian is reporting that Georgina Downer is behind Rebekah Sharkie in two-party preferred polls in the seat of Mayo - she still has four weeks to make up the difference but given her form on refusing to answer questions perhaps the bell might be tolling for the attempt at a hereditary succession. The previous Liberal member (Jamie Briggs) managed to lose what was a relatively safe Liberal seat; I think his antics (getting drunk on a trade mission in Hong Kong and groping a staffer; telling the people of Adelaide that they'd be better off without the car industry) did not endear himself to his own constituents; he managed to lose 16% of the primary vote in the 2016 election - and the seat.
  michaelgm Assistant Commissioner

Ah, Jamie Briggs. What a gem!
A PITA when sober, imagine with a gut full of liquid courage.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Bit of comic relief from the Betoota Advocate: Albo visits parish priest to ask for forgiveness for what he's about to do to Shorten:

Witnesses report seeing Albanese enter the church for confession at approximately 11 am Friday morning at which all churchgoers were ushered outside by members of the Member for Grayndler’s entourage.

Removing his leather gloves, Albanese took a seat in the confessional booth where he skipped over Father Erick’s pleasantries and immediately asked for forgiveness for what he is about to do to his party leader, Bill Shorten.

Rumours state Father Erick pulled back the dividing curtain to look into the Labor MPs eyes in a desperate search for a shred of humanity but was met only by the cold black eyes of a downtrodden man who was willing to dance with the devil to get where he wants.

The confessional is reported to have lasted 55 minutes, before Albo left the booth, adjusting the silk lapels of his Armani double-breasted suit as he does...

Bill shouldn't worry too much, he's got that stupid process that Rudd instituted before the party can get rid of him. Also interesting to note that Johnny Howard was telling the Liberal faithful this weekend that internal LNP polling shows they could possibly win the next election with Turnbull. As I said earlier, trust the Labor Party to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory...
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Ah, Jamie Briggs. What a gem!
A PITA when sober, imagine with a gut full of liquid courage.
michaelgm
What a complete shock and total surprise to find he's landed on his feet at a large accounting consultancy that does heaps of work for the government - Financial Review

Former federal minister Jamie Briggs will still want to forget 2016, the annus horribilis in which he quit Malcolm Turnbull's frontbench over an incident in a Hong Kong bar, then lost his seat of Mayo, in the Adelaide Hills, to his own former staffer (and Nick Xenophon's candidate) Rebekha Sharkie at the July 2 poll...

...But things are looking up: Briggs has joined professional services firm PricewaterhouseCoopers as a director. According to a note circulated on Monday to partners, Briggs will lead an advisory push into infrastructure and cities (his former ministry) and South Australia's favourite, defence. PwC's Adelaide office now has about 200 people in it, but is just one local serial killer away from being empty.

The big four accounting firms like their ex-pollies, with KPMG heavy on Laborites – former AWU boss Paul Howes, Anna Bligh's former chief adviser and NBN executive Mike Kaiser and former trade minister Craig "Boombox" Emerson.

Poor old Jamie Briggs being sacked by his electorate - another Liberal who ended up getting totally unfairly sacked by his own constituents. It always warms my heart to hear of former politicians or union officials who can't quite cut it in the public sector and end up landing on their feet in well-paid jobs in the private sector - usually consulting or lobbying government. Isn't that wonderful?
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Malcolm Bligh Turnbull today loses his 34th Newspoll in a row but nobody seems to care any more; the LNP seem resigned to going to the next election with him anyway.

Meanwhile the Chinese Communist Party continues to buy out the Labor Party including former Prime Ministers and Premiers, this time former Victorian Premier John Brumby has gone into bat for the Chinese government saying the United States wasn't doing enough to kowtow to the Chinese (Fairfax):

Former Victorian premier John Brumby says diplomatic tensions between Canberra and Beijing need to be resolved or the Australian economy could face long-term damage, warning there is a particular danger of isolation if the United States and China ultimately settle their own economic and strategic differences.

…”I think there’s a prevailing view that, one way or another, the US and China will come to some agreement. They have to come to some agreement. They are the two biggest economies in the world and I think both their leaders understand that, for the world economy to do well, those two economies need to co-exist,” Mr Brumby told Fairfax Media.

He doesn't mention his interest in the matter; he's on the Australian board of the Chinese telecoms giant Huawei - a company banned from tendering for Australia's 5G mobile network because of previous issues with spying in the UK and USA.

Personally I can never vote for the Labor Party again - they're too hopelessly compromised by the Chinese Communist Party's soft money campaign. Hawke, Keating, Carr - there's an extensive list of Labor celebrities who've been bought out by the CCP. What a shame they weren't as enthusiastic about lobbying for the rights of poor people or the working class as they have been about a foreign government - I guess poor people don't pay.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Former Treasurer Joe Hockey spends big in his job as the US Ambassador in Washington DC. From the Daily Mail Australia:

He's the former Treasurer who once told Australia the 'age of entitlement is over'. But now firmly ensconced in his new role as the nation's Ambassador to the United States, Joe Hockey has spent $70,000 worth of taxpayer's money in just six months.

The cash splash between July and December 2017 went on alcohol, breakfasts and childcare, Freedom of Information documents obtained by the Herald Sun reveal. There was a dinner for 44 guests ($4335), a party for a retiring public servant ($3165) and a $2535 bill for hosting a reception while Foreign Minister Julie Bishop was in town. Mr Hockey also billed taxpayers $3072 for flowers and $1521 for parking, cleaning and laundry, in addition to the bulk-alcohol spend ($2660) and $3340 charge for babysitters for his young children.

The expenses were reportedly justified as 'supporting Australian businesses abroad' and a usual tool in building contacts.

The age of entitlement is certainly not over for Joe Hockey - he's billing Aussie taxpayers for every single thing that he's entitled to.
  michaelgm Assistant Commissioner

Hockey and his lifters and leaners. It's absolutely crystal clear which camp he leans into.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Malcolm Bligh Turnbull today loses his 34th Newspoll in a row but nobody seems to care any more; the LNP seem resigned to going to the next election with him anyway.

Meanwhile the Chinese Communist Party continues to buy out the Labor Party including former Prime Ministers and Premiers, this time former Victorian Premier John Brumby has gone into bat for the Chinese government saying the United States wasn't doing enough to kowtow to the Chinese (Fairfax):

Former Victorian premier John Brumby says diplomatic tensions between Canberra and Beijing need to be resolved or the Australian economy could face long-term damage, warning there is a particular danger of isolation if the United States and China ultimately settle their own economic and strategic differences.

…”I think there’s a prevailing view that, one way or another, the US and China will come to some agreement. They have to come to some agreement. They are the two biggest economies in the world and I think both their leaders understand that, for the world economy to do well, those two economies need to co-exist,” Mr Brumby told Fairfax Media.

He doesn't mention his interest in the matter; he's on the Australian board of the Chinese telecoms giant Huawei - a company banned from tendering for Australia's 5G mobile network because of previous issues with spying in the UK and USA.

Personally I can never vote for the Labor Party again - they're too hopelessly compromised by the Chinese Communist Party's soft money campaign. Hawke, Keating, Carr - there's an extensive list of Labor celebrities who've been bought out by the CCP. What a shame they weren't as enthusiastic about lobbying for the rights of poor people or the working class as they have been about a foreign government - I guess poor people don't pay.
don_dunstan
How convenient for John Brumby to be Latrobe University's next Chancellor:
https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2018/release/john-brumby-ao-to-be-our-next-chancellor5

He's looking more and more like a sock-puppet....
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
How convenient for John Brumby to be Latrobe University's next Chancellor:
https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2018/release/john-brumby-ao-to-be-our-next-chancellor5

He's looking more and more like a sock-puppet....
Carnot
They mentioned nothing about his Chinese links but I guess that'a a positive given selling useless degrees as a residency passport is the main lobbying game. Brumby has links to both the Chinese government and the Victorian Labor Party. His new job should be a total package around the $1 million p/a mark as most VC's get now; how handy. Bet he won't give up his board memberships either - he's now making the sort of money now he could never have dreamed of as an ordinary old Victorian state MP.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Former Treasurer Joe Hockey spends big in his job as the US Ambassador in Washington DC. From the Daily Mail Australia:

He's the former Treasurer who once told Australia the 'age of entitlement is over'. But now firmly ensconced in his new role as the nation's Ambassador to the United States, Joe Hockey has spent $70,000 worth of taxpayer's money in just six months.

The cash splash between July and December 2017 went on alcohol, breakfasts and childcare, Freedom of Information documents obtained by the Herald Sun reveal. There was a dinner for 44 guests ($4335), a party for a retiring public servant ($3165) and a $2535 bill for hosting a reception while Foreign Minister Julie Bishop was in town. Mr Hockey also billed taxpayers $3072 for flowers and $1521 for parking, cleaning and laundry, in addition to the bulk-alcohol spend ($2660) and $3340 charge for babysitters for his young children.

The expenses were reportedly justified as 'supporting Australian businesses abroad' and a usual tool in building contacts.

The age of entitlement is certainly not over for Joe Hockey - he's billing Aussie taxpayers for every single thing that he's entitled to.
don_dunstan
$100/plate for I assume a fairly high end dinner doo. Thats not bad at all, especially if it includes alcohol. Go to a 5 star restaurant in Washington and see if yo can match that price. My wedding in 2000 cost $45/plate and that was considered dirt cheap for a restaurant in Qld and everyone left with a full belly. Other friends who got married in same era were hitting $100/plate then.

As for JB dinner, yeah well we have big boss come to town and do similar and when we go on business travel our hosts pay for dinner at similar rates and if you are hosting a meeting or function yes you are expected to pay/

Honestly, compared to heavy industry functions, the Aust taxpayer has got off very lightly.
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Hello All,

is it just me , but how can one justify a $1m + salary in a Public Service job , and in the next breath complain about high wages is pricing the ordinary people out of their jobs ?

Re Ambassador positions , I would prefer that they be professional diplomats who have the necessary training and ( one hopes ) the experience to deal with foreign relation and trade matters. I do not disagree that sometimes a former politician can be helpful in these negotiations, but if that is the case , then such a person should be appointed a Special Envoy for that purpose.

Whilst I do also have some concerns with retired politicians ( in the broader sense of the word ) having on going relationships with China , it should be pointed out that such relationships also exist between retired Australian politicians and the US , UK and other countries , and those concerns should also apply in those instances as well.

In that regard many ALP and LNP retired ( and in some cases current ) politicians regularly go to the US for trips sponsored by Think Tanks and which have US State Department assistance. This is an exercise of US soft power, and with the same aim of promoting US interests.

I therefore do not necessarily see that such interactions should also be viewed negatively, and from the foreign government's perspective , advancing their interests should be an important consideration.

The difficulty comes in accessing at which point such interaction may have a negative impact on Australia's interests.In the main, I would expect most Australians in this position are aware of the potential to be compromised , and one would expect DFAT to have a quiet word with them when needed.

Best wishes and regards, Radioman
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Yeah, its a tricky one. Can the PM appoint an ambassador? After all they are a public service role.

My position, the answer is yes, the PM is likely to be on of the top 3-5 people in the country who knows who is the right person for that role and likely done with conversation with a number of others, including foreign minister.

Former Fed MP's especially senior ones also typically have lots of contacts and knowledge of our govt's position and longterm strategy even if they were on the other side of the fence.

I'm not sure if many of these have proven to be mistakes in the past. Hockey's predecessor was Kim Beasley, it appointment was widely supported by both sides of govt.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
The difficulty comes in accessing at which point such interaction may have a negative impact on Australia's interests.In the main, I would expect most Australians in this position are aware of the potential to be compromised , and one would expect DFAT to have a quiet word with them when needed.

Best wishes and regards, Radioman
Radioman
Radioman - the intelligence community has been screaming about the infiltration of soft money for a long time and ASIO has specifically identified the problems being:
  • Silencing and intimidating any anti Chinese Communist Party activities and groups on Australian university campuses.
  • Persecution of political opposition groups within the Chinese community residing in Australia.
  • Intelligence gathering, industrial and military espionage on Australian soil.
The trouble is that every time these things are discussed the Chinese accuse us of being anti-Chinese and shut the conversation down - in fact the Chinese Ambassador held a press conference this morning to do exactly this (Reuters):

China’s ambassador to Australia said on Tuesday “less bias and bigotry” was needed to repair bilateral relations amid concerns over Chinese influence in Australia and its use of loans to build leverage over poorer South Pacific island nations. “We need to see each other’s development and policy intentions from a more positive perspective with less Cold War mentality,” Cheng Jingye said in a speech to politicians and business leaders in Canberra.

What he's saying would be more believable if they'd lifted the unofficial embargo on Australian wine coming into port - apparently the wine industry is still being held up at port in China. These people don't play fair but they accuse everyone else of doing the same thing - I don't think there's any way we could actually appease them without rolling over entirely.
  Groundrelay Deputy Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
... I don't think there's any way we could actually appease them without rolling over entirely.
don_dunstan
We do it all time. In fact when haven't we appeased a foreign country Rolling Eyes

Real world Don. China is a fact and it's not going away. Trumpism will see the USA's influence in Asia diminish and guess who will fill that void.

Watch a program like Landline and there's always someone building a commercial relationship with China, investing here and employing here. Oranges for example, now doing booming trade where not so long ago they were pulling out trees.

The politics of China is reality and reflects it's history, which like Russia had no democratic institutions and concentrated wealth, property and power in a ruling class at the expense of a huge underclass.

China has gone from a plaything for foreign nations to a superpower in it's own right. They might view us as impertinent and could you blame them given their history with foreign powers. It's something we have to manage wisely.

I don't like sucking up to anyone but then again we're fed the British Royals on TV news every night Rolling Eyes
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
We do it all time. In fact when haven't we appeased a foreign country Rolling Eyes

Real world Don. China is a fact and it's not going away. Trumpism will see the USA's influence in Asia diminish and guess who will fill that void.

Watch a program like Landline and there's always someone building a commercial relationship with China, investing here and employing here. Oranges for example, now doing booming trade where not so long ago they were pulling out trees.
Groundrelay
Real world, Groundrelay. It's about empire building - that's the entire point of the "One Belt Road" project, it's about making their own empire of indebted and subservient satellites across the world in order to challenge the United States. If we don't get on board we will feel the wrath of their economic sanctions; it's not because they love us or that its necessarily a good business opportunity for them to invest here. There's other motives at play.

The wine industry has been feeling the brunt of their unpredictable temper recently - imagine the crisis if they cut off beef, iron ore? We aren't their only global supplier you know - Brazil has been trying to usurp the Pilbara for some time as the preferred supplier; their time might be coming.

The Chinese Communist Party will see only one alternative for us: Become a satellite client state or we won't buy anything from you. Mark my words, the time is coming when they will force us to choose between a history of liberal democracy and rule of law OR becoming a full client state with CCP infiltration and control at all levels.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
I don't like sucking up to anyone but then again we're fed the British Royals on TV news every night Rolling Eyes
Groundrelay
It's not racist to make the observation that the British Royals are like us; we speak the same language, we have the same cultural history and we share the same systems of rule of law and human rights. Australia is far from perfect when it comes to human rights but then Mao was an expert at chaos, mass starvation and destruction. Even Donald Trump has to face a system of checks and balances that would make Xi Jinping outraged - it's a totalitarian communist autocracy, he can do whatever he wants with no-one stop him.

What do we really have in common with a murderous system that kills tens of millions of people and then sweeps it under the carpet? Ordinary Chinese people aren't allowed to know about the Great Leap Forward or the Cultural Revolution because it would teach them that their beloved Maoist regime is one of the most deadly and bloodthirsty in human history. It's illegitimate - they stole power from the KMT; it's corrupt - privilege is bestowed upon people according to their position in the party hierarchy. There's no organic billionaires in China who worked their way up from the factory floor - all the oligarchs in China stole, embezzled or otherwise improperly gained their fortunes on the back of who they knew in the Party.

Other people might be happy to sleepwalk into the arms of a brutal dictatorship with no respect for our laws and values but I for one will not stand by quietly while it happens.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
I don't like sucking up to anyone but then again we're fed the British Royals on TV news every night Rolling Eyes
It's not racist to make the observation that the British Royals are like us; we speak the same language, we have the same cultural history and we share the same systems of rule of law and human rights. Australia is far from perfect when it comes to human rights but then Mao was an expert at chaos, mass starvation and destruction. Even Donald Trump has to face a system of checks and balances that would make Xi Jinping outraged - it's a totalitarian communist autocracy, he can do whatever he wants with no-one stop him.

What do we really have in common with a murderous system that kills tens of millions of people and then sweeps it under the carpet? Ordinary Chinese people aren't allowed to know about the Great Leap Forward or the Cultural Revolution because it would teach them that their beloved Maoist regime is one of the most deadly and bloodthirsty in human history. It's illegitimate - they stole power from the KMT; it's corrupt - privilege is bestowed upon people according to their position in the party hierarchy. There's no organic billionaires in China who worked their way up from the factory floor - all the oligarchs in China stole, embezzled or otherwise improperly gained their fortunes on the back of who they knew in the Party.

Other people might be happy to sleepwalk into the arms of a brutal dictatorship with no respect for our laws and values but I for one will not stand by quietly while it happens.
don_dunstan
Where to start
- Yes the Chinese do know about the Cultural Revolution, its an official mistake. YEs I spoke with Chinese about this very thing when I was in China recently
- Yes the Chinese know the Great Leap Forward was also a mistake and again, official. Mao actually resigned over this.

My view Mao should have been held accountable for the loss of 10% of the Chinese population and put on trial. I don't understand why someone who made such fundamental screwups could be revered and the Chinese told me that nearly every family lost members of their family under Mao. However Mao is currently seen as unifying and those who speak publicly against Mao are seen as anti-party and hence a threat to the stability of the country and govt (you can pick which goes first)

The Chinese people supported Xi's rise to non-fixed term because he is seen as anti-corruption and has made numerous changes to the way the party/govt is run and removed corruption. Business is getting easier under Xi as the country moves from a bribe based bureaucracy to systems and standards, more open and transparent bureaucracy. Personally I don't see why you need to remove the fixed 10yr term to do this, but by doing this they tell me its a statement to the old hands and people that times will continue to change and improve.

The current Chinese govt is one of very few that didn't steal govt. American revolution?

Sorry, there millions or self made modern day millionaires, yes there is a history of the past. Even the owner of China's version of Google I suspect has a two way back scratch. You cannot have the economic growth of that country over last 20 years without generating millionaires.

China is the growing new world power and there is not a damn thing Don, Australia or the USA can do about it. Watch Taiwan get taken back into the fold within the next 20 years (or sooner and most likely willingly) and the yanks will not do a damn thing about it.

The only thing "Communist" about China is the name, even locals will tell you that. In their official policy statements "democracy" is listed a right of every Chinese. The thing is today, you cannot be a Totalitarian Govt with today's communications. the Govt listens to the people and acts, even if its not official.  ie Japan was excluded from HSR bidding because of people's outcry over Japanese failure to appologise over WW2.  

The yanks have global dominance because there is +300M with on average some of the highest incomes in the world and source for numerous forms of technology and military hardware. China's economy has already moved to No.2 on GDP and within 20 years will over take the USA and wages in China are growing at 2-3 x the rate of USA, in some cases higher. They also have a very pro-local made govt forcing industry to look at local supply of many pieces of modern technology, ie soon to be 737 class commercial plane so they can reduce the billions each year that leave the country buying aircraft. The No.1 condition of funding their HSR network was that "China will not build HSR to the sole financial benefit of foreign companies, there must be a technology transfer".
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Hello All,

it should be pointed out that the Chiang Kai-shek KMT were so corrupt that in the end FDR withdrew aid and support.The US supplied grain to the KMT in China in 1944 to relieve famine, and according to US Army General Joe Stillwell , the US go between and chief American advisor to the KMT, NOT ONE GRAIN of rice was used to relieve famine, it ALL ended up on the back market , and with significant supplies ending up with the IJA , their supposed enemy .

In 1944 USAAF airfields ,built with US money that the KMT was supposed to protect were easily overrun by the IJA , this was one ( there were others ) reason why the invasion of Formosa did not proceed.

The KMT was supplied ,at vast expense, via a India to China "over the hump" airbridge , and despite such support was consistently unwilling to take on the Japanese. In the end Joe Stillwell advised the Joint Chiefs and FDR that no matter what commitment Chiang gives, he has not and he will not deliver, and so it proved.

In the Post WW2 Civil War TWO of the KMT Armies went over to the Reds , that alone should indicate the disaster that the once proud KMT had become under Chiang Kai-shek.

Whilst I do not dispute that Mao's leadership was wanting, nor do I dispute the above comments in this regard, it could not have been possibly worse than the KMT under Chiang , whom by the way was supported by Stalin right up until the KMT fled the mainland.

( By the way Formosa / Taiwan was ceded to Japan under the 1895 Treaty of Shimonoseki after China's defeat in the Chinese Japan War of 1894. This treaty recognised Formosa as having been Chinese Sovereign Territory . The KMT, post Civil War / Liberation insisted it was still the legitimate Government of China and that Formosa was and remains a Chinese Territory , a position the current day KMT still maintains , and a position the People's Republic of China agrees with , hence the description of Taiwan as a renegade province. )

The CCP brought order out of chaos, freed China of foreign occupation, built China into an industrial power, educated millions who previously had zero opportunity for education, and restored pride to a country that for over a century had no control within its own borders. When compared to previous Chinese Empire rulers, the CCP has demonstrated a capacity for a comparable competence, unlike Chiang's KMT.

China's present, like China's past, should be considered in light of what happened previously, this is , after all, how we compare European and American histories, so why should China's history be held to a different standard and in comparison to our own ? We may not like the current regime , but then again the France's Louis XIV regime was so good that it was violently overthrown , despite which the so called Sun King still gets a good Press.

From another perspective, how many people remember "the Yangtze Incident" ? This was the incident that forced the western occupying powers to eventually realise that the had to leave China. From a Chinese perspective, the Yangtze is an internal river, not an International Waterway, despite the imposition of the Unequal Treaties that arose out of the Opium Wars and other "gunboat diplomacy" events. How would you feel if a foreign power decided that the Murray-Darling River system was an international waterway to be policed by various foreign powers over which you have no say ? How do you think the Americans would regard a similar imposition on the Mississippi River system ? Ultimately it was the Red Army / PLA that forced the foreign occupiers out of China, and for that the CCP can be proud and take credit.

( This is in no way is meant to diminish the bravery of the RN crew of HMS Amethyst and other RN ships who assisted in the recovery of Amethyst. )

Best wishes and regards, Radioman.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
The CCP brought order out of chaos, freed China of foreign occupation, built China into an industrial power, educated millions who previously had zero opportunity for education, and restored pride to a country that for over a century had no control within its own borders. When compared to previous Chinese Empire rulers, the CCP has demonstrated a capacity for a comparable competence, unlike Chiang's KMT.
Radioman
You left out the genocides. The "Great Leap Forward", the systematic and deliberate starvation of tens of millions of peasants to prevent a counter-revolutionary uprising against Mao; the Cultural Revolution where ancient scripts and objects were burnt for no other reason than Mao wanted a continuous revolution; cultural symbols destroyed, tens of thousands shot or hounded to suicide.

You mention the Red Army; the same Red Army that ran tanks directly over the top of unarmed protesters at Tianamen Square in 1989 squashing thousands of people to death in a horrible protracted way - a total death toll estimated at around 10,000 by British diplomatic cables issued at that time.

And the funny thing about this is that Chinese people are still not allowed to learn their true history; in this country we talk openly about what happened to the Aboriginal people during white occupation: That would not be allowed in Communist China. The Party doesn't get things wrong, it doesn't embark on mass murder - Chinese people are not permitted to know the murderous truth of their Maoist government under penalty of going to jail.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
The thing is today, you cannot be a Totalitarian Govt with today's communications. the Govt listens to the people and acts, even if its not official.
RTT_Rules

You'll have to tell all those jailed academics, union organisers and other dissidents that they don't really live in a totalitarian police state - I'm sure they'll be really surprised to hear that.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
The CCP brought order out of chaos, freed China of foreign occupation, built China into an industrial power, educated millions who previously had zero opportunity for education, and restored pride to a country that for over a century had no control within its own borders. When compared to previous Chinese Empire rulers, the CCP has demonstrated a capacity for a comparable competence, unlike Chiang's KMT.
You left out the genocides. The "Great Leap Forward", the systematic and deliberate starvation of tens of millions of peasants to prevent a counter-revolutionary uprising against Mao; the Cultural Revolution where ancient scripts and objects were burnt for no other reason than Mao wanted a continuous revolution; cultural symbols destroyed, tens of thousands shot or hounded to suicide.

You mention the Red Army; the same Red Army that ran tanks directly over the top of unarmed protesters at Tianamen Square in 1989 squashing thousands of people to death in a horrible protracted way - a total death toll estimated at around 10,000 by British diplomatic cables issued at that time.

And the funny thing about this is that Chinese people are still not allowed to learn their true history; in this country we talk openly about what happened to the Aboriginal people during white occupation: That would not be allowed in Communist China. The Party doesn't get things wrong, it doesn't embark on mass murder - Chinese people are not permitted to know the murderous truth of their Maoist government under penalty of going to jail.
don_dunstan
As you have been told Don, the Chinese communist party officially acknowledges that the "Great Leap Forward" and the "Cultural Revolution" were a mistake  Mao tried to resign over the former and then worked very hard to resolve and stop the later as it clearly got out of control and they knew it. Hence they moved the Red Army onto the farms far away from major cities. One day in the future there will be a formal apology, however it is not within Chinese cultural to admit mistakes (my inlaws are first hand experience) and that the issue is still as far as China is concerned still very much fresh and too soon. As Asian culture operates in 3 generational time frames, its unlikely you or I will see any formal apology.

China is a multi-cultural country and as we have seen in some parts of the ME, to unit such cultures takes strong hard line leadership. I don't condone what Mao or others did, but if we think it was going to be done using the Australian way of thinking, you are kidding yourself.

Yes, the govt again screwed up in Tiananmen and don't they know it, but its basically a military controlled state, these things don't end well anywhere. Go there today and see if you can find a gun in sight anywhere (I'm not stupid enough to think there are no guns at all, but at least hidin, afterall this is outside the central govt buildings). The police run the security (there is lots), the soldiers stand in certain locations with at times riot shield and a fire extinguisher in view as crowd control. The govt has also paid compensation to some of the people killed who were not part of the demonstration.

Thousands were not crushed at the square, most were actually shot and the numbers there was no where near that number, its not that big, the number quoted included all the protests across China. 10,000 is one guesstimate, the numbers vary.

How much do you think German's learn about WW2, or Japan and what they do learn is more in recent times to an event 70 years ago? You are kidding yourself if almost any country in the world will make such recent history as part of their school curriculum. The history of Tiananem, Cultural Revolution is on the non-Chinese WWW and yes you can read it in China, as I was. And yes they are taught about the revolution strengths and weaknesses as I was asking locals and asked what was taught in schools.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
The thing is today, you cannot be a Totalitarian Govt with today's communications. the Govt listens to the people and acts, even if its not official.

You'll have to tell all those jailed academics, union organisers and other dissidents that they don't really live in a totalitarian police state - I'm sure they'll be really surprised to hear that.
don_dunstan
I said it listens to the people sediment (plural), not individuals who they see as threats to the stability of the country and govt (right or wrong).

What I was inferring is that while it has a single party govt state, the days of the govt doing what it likes with no interest or concern in what the people think feel or do are long gone. Remember they are only leaders of the country because 1,440,000,000 people continue to not strongly object to their actions. Repression in the 21st century only gets you so far, especially if you want to openly trade with the world.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from: