Every Caulfield To Dandenong Level Crossing Gone

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 25 Jun 2018 09:58
  jakar Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
@jakar The maximum number of possible trains that the current signalling allows on double track is 20 per hour or a little more. That's a train every three minutes, at least approximately.
Myrtone
Excellent, now all YOU need to do is find out a few more figures and you'll have your answer.

And I'm not expecting anyone to work anything out for me, just hoping that someone who already knows will say something.
Myrtone
If you're not expecting anyone else to work it out for you then stop complaining and saying that you're sick and tired of no-one responding or not giving you the precise answers you seek! This really is a pretty niche subject that I highly doubt many people have given much thought or give two hoots about.

If these two ped crossings concern you so much then lobby to have them closed, i'm sure the locals who use them will love you for it.

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  LeroyW Junior Train Controller

Location: Awaiting MM2
True or false? If too many trains cross a footpath on the same level within an hour, the pedestrian gates will be closed (and the alarm sounding) for that whole hour.
Myrtone
I'll say what people seem to have been dancing around for a while (it will probably make the conversation keep going but oh well, there's already a whole page in this thread discussion pedestrian crossings)...

The above is theoretically True. If too many trains cross a footpath within the hour, the pedestrian gates will stay closed for the entire hour.

However, as others have stated, it would seem that this is not taken into account when imposing limits on train frequency, meaning the above is a theoretical possibility.

Does it matter? I don't know. Maybe write a concerned letter to Metro about it.
  stooge spark Train Controller

Second one is between Clayton and Westall
The second should be between Huntingdale and Clayton. Its at the end of Prince Charles St.
jakar
Is this one still there? If it still is then you are correct, that's actually supposed to be the second one.
But still there are three pedestrian crossings, which probably don't get too much use in the area.
Also Myrtone you are not making it clear what you want from us, you say we don't answer the question or give unhelpful answers, well if we can't help you or be clear when we answer your questions, maybe you should be more clear about what exactly you want from us.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Does it matter? I don't know. Maybe write a concerned letter to Metro about it.
LeroyW
Dear Mr. Metro, there are too many pedestrian level crossings these days. Please eliminate three. I am NOT a crackpot.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5dmxBUbzBU


BG
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
All Caulfield to Dandenong road crossings gone. Good, now it's time for Glenhuntly before Matthew Guy &c. spends exty billion dollars on yet another tollway.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
There are three road overpasses that cross that railway, each of which replaced a level crossing much earlier. But the area was already built up by that time and there was building demolition. They have been criticised for what they did to the amenity of the area.
Had the railway been elevated at that time, there could have been one long viaduct from Caulfield to Dandenong, and all that building demolition would have been avoided.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

There are three road overpasses that cross that railway, each of which replaced a level crossing much earlier. But the area was already built up by that time and there was building demolition. They have been criticised for what they did to the amenity of the area. Had the railway been elevated at that time, there could have been one long viaduct from Caulfield to Dandenong, and all that building demolition would have been avoided.
Myrtone


The usual lack of resources issue. Also worth remembering that until relatively recently a good section of that railway ran through paddocks.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
So then again; Had grade separation been carried out back then, this being before the area was built up, a lot of it could have just been a simple road over, at much less cost and with less disruption. Unfortunately, we waited until well after the area was built up before grade separation.
  AndyChee Station Master

So then again; Had grade separation been carried out back then, this being before the area was built up, a lot of it could have just been a simple road over, at much less cost and with less disruption. Unfortunately, we waited until well after the area was built up before grade separation.
Myrtone
So what would you like to do? Go back in a time machine and fix it?  There's no point in dwelling on mistakes that can't be undone.

....unless of course you're suggesting history is being repeated.  In which case please specify which area should be reserved for a future rail corridor expansion but is currently being built up, much to the chagrin of yourself.
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
"AndyChee
...unless of course you're suggesting history is being repeated.  In which case please specify which area should be reserved for a future rail corridor expansion but is currently being built up, much to the chagrin of yourself."

I can think of a few future proofing ideas that need reservation.
Clyde to Officer
Airport to Clarkefield
Airport to Wallan (should have been Craigeburn, but that's too far gone)
Access to Avalon airport
Access to Tooradin airport (whichever site/s down there are in favour)
Straight line thru (under ?) Baccus Marsh, cutting out the long way around the racecourse.
Keep room clear along all the existing corridors, including those out of service.

Cheers
John
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
One thing I am wondering is why the none of the new stations are directly above streets. For example, why is Carnegie station still east of Koornang road rather than directly above it.
  Lockie91 Train Controller

Why does matter?

My first guess would be safety, humans like to throw objects as well as themselves.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Well, can you visualise a station directly above the street? Think about how one would get to and from such a station.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
One thing I am wondering is why the none of the new stations are directly above streets. For example, why is Carnegie station still east of Koornang road rather than directly above it.
Myrtone
Cost $$
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
With an exit at both ends of the platform? Never mind, we don't do that in Melbourne.
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
With an exit at both ends of the platform? Never mind, we don't do that in Melbourne.
Heihachi_73
Actually, I believe Carnegie & Murrumbeena will have exits at both ends of the platforms. Not sure about Hughesdale, Clayton or Noble Park.

As to some other question re the down end junction at Caulfield, it is still in place for the moment. Overhead stanchions are ready to go when the junction is rationalised but that hasn't happened yet.  I was speaking to a train driver I met on the Caulfield platform a week or so ago and I asked him about that. The ultimate plan is for the Frankston services & Dandenong corridor services to be completely separated from each other - apparently Metro doesn't want HCMT signalling and conventional signalling mixing. This is despite the ongoing works between Caulfield - Flinders St to set up the line for HCMT services, which is including signalling, track and overhead upgrades to the Frankston tracks.

I can assume the reasoning to keep the down end points in place for the moment is to enable Frankston trains to access platforms 3 & 4 at Caulfield while the HCMT works are taking place and they need to re-route Frankston services. However this means that Frankston trains have to use platforms 2 & 3 from Moorabbin - Glenhuntly as the platform 1 track is not wired anymore to Platform 3 at Caulfield. In addition it is a well-known fact that the HCMT sets will be running at higher voltage than the rest of the fleet. Frankston trains are to be retrofitted for dual voltage operation so they can access the Westall Maintenance facility but HCMT sets will not be able to use the Frankston tracks - at least not yet.

I might add that the up end junction is to remain so there might be some crossover for V/Line trains and the Maryvale freight. The new overheads in this location look like they were built for this junction to remain.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
@Nightfire - How could it have been cost, the station had to be rebuilt to raise the railway, how could cost be a reason against putting in directly above the road, with access to the station on both sides of that road?
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
@Nightfire - How could it have been cost, the station had to be rebuilt to raise the railway, how could cost be a reason against putting in directly above the road, with access to the station on both sides of that road?
Myrtone
The cost associated with blocking off the road for extended amount of time (Weeks even Months) while the construction crews build the station.

A footbridge crossing over the road, does the same job for a fraction of the cost.
  drunkill Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Yep, building above the road would have cost way more, impacted traffic more and been a harder job.

They would have had of built a temporary bridge/deck to protect cars below, much like the platform decks protecting the stations below the new stations while they were being built.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
The cost associated with blocking off the road for extended amount of time (Weeks even Months) while the construction crews build the station.
Nightfire
Are you referring to disruption rather than the price tag, which is how "cost" is often understood?

A footbridge crossing over the road, does the same job for a fraction of the cost.
Nightfire
But alas there isn't one and I haven't heard of plans for one. While I personally wish there were more, they have been criticised for making pedestrians walk up and over, just ask @scrat.

Yep, building above the road would have cost way more, impacted traffic more and been a harder job.
drunkill
But how impactful is it in the long term? Stations directly above roads do exist elsewhere in the world, a Melbourne example is Richmond station, right above Punt Road.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Lifts at the stations still aren't in use.
  Lockie91 Train Controller

And? LXRA and Metro have both said end of September. Your point?
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

On Melbourne's rail network, not many stations are located directly above a road (eg Richmond) and not many stations are completely cut and cover (eg Box hill).

Hmm I wonder why?

More difficult job to do ->  takes longer to construct -> more disruptive -> costs more

Now in the case for the elevated stations along the Dandenong line, realigning the stations to go over the roads would of been the "perfect scenario", but not the most practical cost effective solution, since the slight benefit to have connection of both sides of the roads, would not worth the extra expense of the extra disruption, a more complex design and making it take longer to construct.

It's like the Buckley Street debacle, it's road under cause they take the most cost effective solution, not the "perfect scenario". It would be nice if they re-graded the rail bridge above, and put in a full blown trench. But is it the most practical? Nope.

As it is the Dandenong level crossing removal are actually a more "perfect scenario" already.
1) All 5 stations are now premium (escalators, toilets, staff and everything) and have huge structural piece for shelter.
2) The elevated structure doesn't dip and rise, it has long stretches of elevated rail. Yes it's possible it could have been just a 9 seperate rail bridges. How? Well if you look at the 3 Bentleigh crossings where it dip and climbs, the roads are at least the same distance apart as the ones along the Dandenong line.
3) They are the most expensive ones out of the other grade seperations (with exception to Main Road St Albans (200 million?)). Roughly 178 million each crossing. This is because they expanded the scope, to completely build open spaces, whole bike path, and build really fancy stations.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
On Melbourne's rail network, not many stations are located directly above a road (eg Richmond) and not many stations are completely cut and cover (eg Box hill).
True Believers
I think that's the same in Sydney, where level crossings are scarce.

Now in the case for the elevated stations along the Dandenong line, realigning the stations to go over the roads would of been the "perfect scenario", but not the most practical cost effective solution, since the slight benefit to have connection of both sides of the roads, would not worth the extra expense of the extra disruption, a more complex design and making it take longer to construct.
True Believers
Sure but that benefit is ongoing, while the cost and disruption aren't. And I would think the benefit of having a connection to both sides of the roads may actually be quite significant, depending on vehicular and pedestrian traffic.

It's like the Buckley Street debacle, it's road under cause they take the most cost effective solution, not the "perfect scenario". It would be nice if they re-graded the rail bridge above, and put in a full blown trench.
True Believers
According to the LXRA, lowering the tracks in that location would require property acquisition.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Boronia station, is not a good deal of this underneath the intersection of Boronia rd and Dorset rd, one of the busiest intersections in the eastern suburbs?

woodford

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