Train top speeds?

 
  42101 Banned

Location: Banned
Ok stupid_girl you make a compelling case for your point of view. In the end it all comes back to an incompetent labor government run by union heavyweights that have no interest outside spin and getting themselves elected every 3 years. The end result is billions of dollars of money made from selling income generating assets + stamp duty and GST has been blown away on waste and failed projects and we are left 30 years behind on railway infrastructure. I suppose we should be thankful that they actually spent some money on the clearways program and attempting to build a dedicated freight link in Sydney's South.
"Redaxe"

However, some people keep saying that the K2RQ should be the top priority.
To rank something as the top priority, the project needs to be not only beneficial but also more beneficial than other projects.
All their arguments shows that constructing K2RQ is better than doing nothing but none of them jsutify that K2RQ is more beneficial than a new Westmead-City and Chatswood-city corridor.

Currently in the AM peak, there are:
19tph from Redfern towards North Sydney
18tph from Redfern towards Martin Place
18tph from North Sydney towards Redfern
12tph from Revesby towards Beverly Hills

It's clear that the existing tracks between Revesby and Beverly Hills are nowhere near capacity and K2RQ should not be ranked in the top.
"stupid_girl"


God you are brain dead. Rolling Eyes

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  stupid_girl Assistant Commissioner

Ok stupid_girl you make a compelling case for your point of view. In the end it all comes back to an incompetent labor government run by union heavyweights that have no interest outside spin and getting themselves elected every 3 years. The end result is billions of dollars of money made from selling income generating assets + stamp duty and GST has been blown away on waste and failed projects and we are left 30 years behind on railway infrastructure. I suppose we should be thankful that they actually spent some money on the clearways program and attempting to build a dedicated freight link in Sydney's South.
"Redaxe"

However, some people keep saying that the K2RQ should be the top priority.
To rank something as the top priority, the project needs to be not only beneficial but also more beneficial than other projects.
All their arguments shows that constructing K2RQ is better than doing nothing but none of them jsutify that K2RQ is more beneficial than a new Westmead-City and Chatswood-city corridor.

Currently in the AM peak, there are:
19tph from Redfern towards North Sydney
18tph from Redfern towards Martin Place
18tph from North Sydney towards Redfern
12tph from Revesby towards Beverly Hills

It's clear that the existing tracks between Revesby and Beverly Hills are nowhere near capacity and K2RQ should not be ranked in the top.
"stupid_girl"


God you are brain dead. Rolling Eyes
"42101"

This is clearly a personal attack.
  lsrailfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere you're not
WRONG WRONG WRONG, that is what you are Stupid_Girl-  Clearly there WILL be more trains on the East Hills corridor when the K2RQ Project is complete , Just becasuse there are 12 trains per hour in the peak does not mean that it is not important- As I have said before- Have you even bothered to come west of the Bridge- The Sou-West is Booming my dear, The K2RQ Alliance project needs to be completed ASAP- Just as much as the Glenfield to Leppingtion project

Kind Regards
  stupid_girl Assistant Commissioner

WRONG WRONG WRONG, that is what you are Stupid_Girl-  Clearly there WILL be more trains on the East Hills corridor when the K2RQ Project is complete , Just becasuse there are 12 trains per hour in the peak does not mean that it is not important- As I have said before- Have you even bothered to come west of the Bridge- The Sou-West is Booming my dear, The K2RQ Alliance project needs to be completed ASAP- Just as much as the Glenfield to Leppingtion project

Kind Regards
"lsrailfan"

Clearly, there can be more trains on the East Hills corridor without K2RQ.

You say that 12 trains per hour in the peak does not mean that it is not important. However, does it mean that it is more important than a new Westmead-City or Chatswood-City corridor?

Also, there will be even more trains if a new Westmead-City or Chatswood-City corridor is provided. East Hills Line can get at most extra 4tph due to capacity constraint in the City Circle. A new Westmead-City or Chatswood-City corridor can provide at most extra 20tph.


If you want to justify a project is the top priority, it has to be not just important but more important than other projects.
  stupid_girl Assistant Commissioner

Regarding the booming in SW, please note that the developments are nowhere close to the SWRL corridor!!! The Chatswood-City corridor has to carry passengers from the northwest, which is booming along the NWRL corridor. The induced patronage from NWRL will far exceed the SWRL.


In the meantime, Westmead-City corridor will likely get increased patronage as NW continues to develop. (Westmead is an interchange for NW T-way, where bus stops will be at more convenient locations than train stations.)

The problem is that the Chatswood-City and Westmead-City corridors CANNOT accomodate more trains while the Kingsgrove-Revesby corridor can. You can put extra 4th between Kingsgrove and Revesby without K2RQ but you CANNOT put extra 4tph between Chatswood/Westmead and City without a new corridor.
  jaseee Chief Train Controller

stupid_girl, you are trying to compare apples with oranges. If you really wanted to compare the "19tph from Redfern towards North Sydney", then you would do this with how many trains are entering the City Circle via Museum or Town Hall in the morning peak.

"12tph from Revesby towards Beverly Hills" is not any higher because they are constrained by train paths through the city and through the K2RQ corridor (which are taken up by other trains from other lines). The K2RQ will assist with this and probably allow more trains to enter the City Circle via Museum (assuming they still put all Bankstown trains via Town Hall). I suppose they'd have to do the same in the afternoon peak (which they currently don't).

How many trains run between Westmead and the City directly? I'm sure it's closer to that 12tph figure as well.

Is the K2RQ more important? Probably not, but it's already started and will benefit the SWRL.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that you are making the wrong comparisons.
  stupid_girl Assistant Commissioner

stupid_girl, you are trying to compare apples with oranges. If you really wanted to compare the "19tph from Redfern towards North Sydney", then you would do this with how many trains are entering the City Circle via Museum or Town Hall in the morning peak.

"12tph from Revesby towards Beverly Hills" is not any higher because they are constrained by train paths through the city and through the K2RQ corridor (which are taken up by other trains from other lines). The K2RQ will assist with this and probably allow more trains to enter the City Circle via Museum (assuming they still put all Bankstown trains via Town Hall). I suppose they'd have to do the same in the afternoon peak (which they currently don't).

How many trains run between Westmead and the City directly? I'm sure it's closer to that 12tph figure as well.

Is the K2RQ more important? Probably not, but it's already started and will benefit the SWRL.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that you are making the wrong comparisons.
"jaseee"

Regarding the number of trains running between Westmead and the City, there are actually 15tph Western Line services, which merges with 4tph Northern Line services to give 19tph across the bridge.

You are right in that are constrained by train paths through the city.

Therefore, if you want to look at the problem of the trains into "City Circle via Museum/Town Hall", the solution is a new corridor that can work independent of the City Circle.

K2RQ is not a corridor that can work independent of the City Circle.
In contrast, new Westmead-City and Chatswood-City can run on their own.

There can be at most 20tph into City Circle via Museum. Does this value suddenly increases after K2RQ?
No, so K2RQ is not allowing more trains to enter the City Circle via Museum.

You could argue that trains will be slower between Revesby and Kingsgrove without K2RQ. At worst, you could have all East Hills Line trains stopping all stations between Revesby and Kingsgrove. However, even if you increases 4tph between Revesby and Kingsgrove, it is actually still possible to skip a few stops.

Since the first day, I agree that K2RQ has the benefit to improve travelling time. Nevertheless, this is not as urgent as bringing extra 20tph of people into the city.
  djlyon Junior Train Controller

I have turned my GPS On.

Macarthur to Wolli Creek averages 45kmh with a top speed of 115kmh.
  nadnerbster Deputy Commissioner

Location: Profundo en la Mierda
I have turned my GPS On.

Macarthur to Wolli Creek averages 45kmh with a top speed of 115kmh.
"djlyon"


The average speeds can easily be worked out from the timetable and distance information posted on CityRail's site Wink

And I could've told you the speeds lol . . . But yes, 115km/h is the limit from Leumeah to Glenfield, then Glenfield Jn to Salt Pan Creek on the up. Fairly similar on the down. It's quite a fast line really. Skip a few stations and that 45km/h average would probably go up around 50-60km/h.

People get really hung up on average speeds - a lot of people don't realise that even in ideal circumstances, our speeds really aren't that high. My car has measured it's average speed over 36,000km as being 55km/h - it's only that high because I live outside the metro area and can do 80 in most directions almost as soon as I leave my driveway, and I'm almost never driving in peak hours. My dad's car with a similar feature managed 41km/h average over it's 4 years. Traffic lights, stops, any slowdown takes it's toll. Even bullet trains with top speeds of 300km/h can sometimes have very unimpressive average speeds.
  Thomas27 Beginner

How fast does the Waratah Sydney train go.
  exarmidale Train Controller

How fast does the Waratah Sydney train go.
Thomas27
At least Track Speed I hope.

What it is capable of Who knows??????
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
130Km/Hr in regular service per the TOC Manual. So it has probably been tested to at least 150km/hr before acceptance.
  piepants Chief Train Controller

Location: Newcastle
Yeah, official maximum is 130. Or if the eTIS display is to be believed, it's more like 160.

  james2003 Beginner

The fastest are the XPTs. One once almost reached 200kph, breaking a speed record for trains in Australia. The fastest electrics are the high speed Oscars and V Sets, which have a variable top speed of about 115kph. The blanket speed limit across Sydney however doesn’t apply to High Speed trains taking the Main Suburban or Great Northern Line. (There really is no such thing as dumbing down of train drivers, because they just follow the speed limit. However, rail unions have led to differenciate union workers though.)
  TrainLover222 Junior Train Controller

Location: ...And then all stations to Central
The fastest are the XPTs. One once almost reached 200kph, breaking a speed record for trains in Australia. The fastest electrics are the high speed Oscars and V Sets, which have a variable top speed of about 115kph. The blanket speed limit across Sydney however doesn’t apply to High Speed trains taking the Main Suburban or Great Northern Line. (There really is no such thing as dumbing down of train drivers, because they just follow the speed limit. However, rail unions have led to differenciate union workers though.)
james2003
The Waratahs, OSCARs and Millenniums all have a top speed of 130 km/h, faster than the V sets and other double-deck electrics.

Thanks
  PeeJay2 Beginner

The fastest are the XPTs. One once almost reached 200kph, breaking a speed record for trains in Australia. The fastest electrics are the high speed Oscars and V Sets, which have a variable top speed of about 115kph. The blanket speed limit across Sydney however doesn’t apply to High Speed trains taking the Main Suburban or Great Northern Line. (There really is no such thing as dumbing down of train drivers, because they just follow the speed limit. However, rail unions have led to differenciate union workers though.)
The Waratahs, OSCARs and Millenniums all have a top speed of 130 km/h, faster than the V sets and other double-deck electrics.

Thanks
TrainLover222
Not that it matters anymore - fasted speed in the metro area is 115. Would love to know why they changed it, now that we've finally got fast trains. (Well, I hear stories of V sets and U boats with "broken" speedos... Apparently top speed is limited by pantograph bounce. Who knew? Smile)
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Not that it matters anymore - fasted speed in the metro area is 115. Would love to know why they changed it, now that we've finally got fast trains. (Well, I hear stories of V sets and U boats with "broken" speedos... Apparently top speed is limited by pantograph bounce. Who knew? Smile)
PeeJay2
As a former commuter on U boats to Gosford in the 80's, I can attest to some very fast trips home from Hornsby, some making up to 10min of late running. More than a few times commuters looking around, all knowing things are moving faster than normal and quietly grateful bus connections will be made.
  Nar-Nar Station Staff

130Km/Hr in regular service per the TOC Manual. So it has probably been tested to at least 150km/hr before acceptance.
KRviator

10% above design or -10km/hr of track design speed appears to be the general rule in Sydney (and most other networks)
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Now this maybe old wives tale but a good one non the less. Came from a driver in /around Lithgow.
Shortly after the introduction of the XPT there was promotional or political exercise, on the quad track west of Sydney. Using the then new train.

PA announcement ladies and gentleman, were are now travelling on the fastest train in the country as it was slowly overtaken by  a V set. Blues goose back then.

BUNG issued?
  zordmaker Train Controller

Location: NSW
Just a point on speed;

The primary limiting factor on speed for an electric train is the speed of the motor.

Because the motors are coupled directly to the wheels, there is only one gear ratio. None of this "overdrive" like your car has. This means at high speed, the rotor / armature in the motor is spinning at some significantly high speeds indeed. The higher the speed, the higher the centrifugal force on the copper windings that make up the armature surface.

This force is not linear, it logarithmic-ally increases with speed, i.e. an electric train at 115kph is placing about eight times' the strain on the armature than one doing 80kph. All those windings want to do at these speeds is get out of that armature, just like the water wants to get out of your clothes in the washing machine on spin cycle.

The windings are made of heavy copper strap so the forces are huge. And all that's keeping them there are a pair of rings called "armature bandings" at each end, generally made of fibreglass rope. When these let go, the motor becomes a mess rreeaaalll quick!

The older the motor, the more these bandings become hardened just like paint that shrinks, cracks and falls off a wall. Old DC electric motors can be nasty, risky beasts for this reason. Everything looks all OK until suddenly it's not OK anymore.

It is for this reason why the maximum speed of vintage set F1 is now strictly set at 80kph when everybody knows that "back in the day", 100kph running on these sets was common with no problems. They all forget that was well over 20 years ago.

Just my $0.02.
  SydneyCider Chief Train Controller

Thanks for the detailed info zm.

There was an interview earlier this year with LVR when they took their CPH's up north on a tour and they were asked by a reporter how fast they could go and they said they limit them to 80km/h so not to push them too hard as they are older trains, despite the fact they could do more. I think I've heard that 80km/h is also the limit for steam locos during the train races they have up north at Hunter Valley and the one through the inner west with the THExpo. I'm not sure if such limits are also in place with vintage diesel locos.

I take it any future restored electrics such as W, U or electric locos would have similar speed limits on them? Although a U-boat and electric locos wouldn't have to slow down past stations like F1 (and no doubt W3) have to?
  zordmaker Train Controller

Location: NSW
Thanks for the detailed info zm.

There was an interview earlier this year with LVR when they took their CPH's up north on a tour and they were asked by a reporter how fast they could go and they said they limit them to 80km/h so not to push them too hard as they are older trains, despite the fact they could do more. I think I've heard that 80km/h is also the limit for steam locos during the train races they have up north at Hunter Valley and the one through the inner west with the THExpo. I'm not sure if such limits are also in place with vintage diesel locos.

I take it any future restored electrics such as W, U or electric locos would have similar speed limits on them? Although a U-boat and electric locos wouldn't have to slow down past stations like F1 (and no doubt W3) have to?
SydneyCider
Jury's out on what speed limit will be given to W3. Original book speed is 115 and F1 is limited to 80 so I'd be arguing for 100 for W3. The W has 1970s' vintage AEI149's under both motor cars (not the original 1955 vintage MV222's) so they're not quite as old. They also have roller tunnel bearings, as opposed to the plain bearings on the 3000 series axle hung motors under F1.

We'll have to cross the issue of the U boat when we come to it, likewise this will also depend on the motors but I would expect 100 would be appropriate.

There was actually some talk of raising F1's speed limit but that was quashed by Geoff and agreed to by myself, one of the few times I think we actually agreed on something Smile

F1 was recorded doing 85 a few times during the run to/from East Hills last month..:-{}
  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
With bigger heavier welded rail, concrete or steel sleepers, well tamped ballast, the speed of most trains possibly could be increased on long  open line sections.
That they dont push 'Vintage/Heritage' sets is understandable but remembering how the Locomotive used to shake, rattle, rock and roll on 90lb 30 foot (10 metre) sections of pre machine tamped ballast and nothing happened convinces me that they are erring on the side of not having something happen they may be held responsible for if those trains went any faster.
  ivahri Train Controller

I thought the outer pair of tracks around Riverwood & Padstow were 130km/h, as well as through Holsworthy...
  zordmaker Train Controller

Location: NSW
With bigger heavier welded rail, concrete or steel sleepers, well tamped ballast, the speed of most trains possibly could be increased on long  open line sections.
That they dont push 'Vintage/Heritage' sets is understandable but remembering how the Locomotive used to shake, rattle, rock and roll on 90lb 30 foot (10 metre) sections of pre machine tamped ballast and nothing happened convinces me that they are erring on the side of not having something happen they may be held responsible for if those trains went any faster.
gordon_s1942
Somewhere recently, there was a video of 6029 on the great train race earlier this month. You should have seen the ride! Giving the crew a shake for their lives! Probably only doing 80.

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