B set introduction set back?

 
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
Perhaps it's time to start a pinned thread called "what if?" as a lure to keep the actual topics clear for relevant discussions.

Just for information, tram technology has progressed to the extent that sections of high floor are no longer necessary and pretty-much all new trams nowadays are fully stepless low floor (at least in the gangway, i.e. aisle and doorways, which is the accepted definition). There are some market pockets still with part high-floor (e.g. USA) but they're fading.

Fully low floor (by the same definition) diesel/gas buses have been around for more than two decades now, predominantly in Europe where they are the majority of new citybuses nowadays, but some are finding their way into Australia. This didn't have to wait for electrification. It was accomplished by the simple expedient of mounting the engine vertically across the rear of the bus so that the aisle can be stepless all the way to the rear seat row which is typically on a step-up over the engine.

The Europeans are particularly into having spaces for mobility devices near doors. In trams and buses, the entry for these is not typically the front door, but the next door along so that one can wheel into a dedicated space on the offside directly opposite the door. In Australia, with our trams being double-ended, the space is offset from the door but still adjacent. In our buses, the preference is to have the ramp at the front door, but the aisle is widened as far back as the dedicated space just to the rear of the front axle. In our trains, whether single or double deck, the dedicated space is typically adjacent to a door.

There is simply no demand to take wheeled devices further into the vehicle when there is adequate provision near a door. The impetus for having stepless gangways from front to back of public transport vehicles of any mode is simply that steps impede passenger flow and even distribution of a load, slow down passenger exchange and create a safety issue. Wheelchairs and prams aside, stepless gangways do also have a benefit for mobility-impaired passengers who are on their feet but have difficulty mounting steps or are sight-impaired.

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  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Just for information, tram technology has progressed to the extent that sections of high floor are no longer necessary and pretty-much all new trams nowadays are fully stepless low floor (at least in the gangway, i.e. aisle and doorways, which is the accepted definition). There are some market pockets still with part high-floor (e.g. USA) but they're fading.
tonyp
Well yes but there are still some advantages of high floor that advances in tram and bus technology won't change. There are even a few market pockets with high floor which is still my preferred option if high platforms are possible and quite acceptable in all locations. Think of light rail systems able to avoid the very problem that low floor trams were originally designed to solve.

Fully low floor (by the same definition) diesel/gas buses have been around for more than two decades now, predominantly in Europe where they are the majority of new citybuses nowadays, but some are finding their way into Australia. This didn't have to wait for electrification. It was accomplished by the simple expedient of mounting the engine vertically across the rear of the bus so that the aisle can be stepless all the way to the rear seat row which is typically on a step-up over the engine.
tonyp
There is also still a market for high floor buses in some places, either where level boarding isn't important or where level boarding to high floor buses is possible in all locations.

The Europeans are particularly into having spaces for mobility devices near doors. In trams and buses, the entry for these is not typically the front door, but the next door along so that one can wheel into a dedicated space on the offside directly opposite the door. In Australia, with our trams being double-ended, the space is offset from the door but still adjacent. In our buses, the preference is to have the ramp at the front door, but the aisle is widened as far back as the dedicated space just to the rear of the front axle. In our trains, whether single or double deck, the dedicated space is typically adjacent to a door.
tonyp
If there is level entrance at all doors, then how about spaces for mobility devices near every door.

There is simply no demand to take wheeled devices further into the vehicle when there is adequate provision near a door. The impetus for having stepless gangways from front to back of public transport vehicles of any mode is simply that steps impede passenger flow and even distribution of a load, slow down passenger exchange and create a safety issue. Wheelchairs and prams aside, stepless gangways do also have a benefit for mobility-impaired passengers who are on their feet but have difficulty mounting steps or are sight-impaired.
tonyp
I respectfully disagree, there may be people unable to walk who would really like to go futher into the vehicle but can't. There didn't used to be a demand to take wheeled devices on board any street transit apart from community buses that had hoists to lift wheelchairs onto them. Now that's changed, who says this thing you are stating won't ever change?
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
I suspect this is actually just whatabouttery, but I'll indulge the question.
Our Dubai resident answered or at least tried to, but was inconsistant with the fact that some low floor trams and especially most low floor buses do have part high floor.

Different approaches are taken on trams (total length 20-40 metres) and trains (total length can be 200+ metres) because the different situation demands a different method of balancing priorities.
How about someone bother to explain this in as much detail as they can.

Nuance is a bit of a blind spot for you. I hope that as you mature (perhaps when you approach the second half of your teen years?) you will begin to appreciate this and develop effective strategies for investigating the reasons behind different approaches being taken in different situations.
I am an adult and have been posting here since 2007. This is pathetcially rude.

Really? The only examples I can find are machine-operated hoists for entry/exit where there is a large difference in height between the platform and the train.
See below.

Even the new Russian intercity sleeper cars you mentioned don't have them, a quick bit of research revealed that the lift in the dining car is only for a catering trolley, and that their approach to accomodating passengers with disabilities is to have one car set up to provide appropriate accomodation.
This blog mentions the idea and does claim the Russian double deckers have them.

Far better to design new trains and stations for level entry additional aids such as wheelchair lifts are unnecessary - not least because access is impaired if the lift is out of service. Where level entry is not possible, the next-best option is a small enough difference in height that a manually deployed ramp can be used rather than a machine-operated hoist which will need regular maintenance.
And wherever possible, there will be level entry through all doors, so wheelchairs can go through any of them.

Yes, but actual people who use wheelchairs don't actually use them. They prefer to enter at the door closest to the accommodation which has been specified to suit their needs (so as to minimise the need to fight through a crowd to get to their accommodation) and which will usually have external markings to indicate the best point to board.
Maybe things will change as wheelchair accommodation is provided more widely onboard.

I note that the photo you supplied does not have any grab bars or railings at the appropriate height for a person in a wheelchair to use, so they couldn't move along the aisle while the train is in motion.
Maybe new trains should have them.

A wide aisle is specified on certain rolling stock to facilitate extra standing space, not to facilitate wheelchair movement.
Whatever the reason it is specified, it could be useful for those in wheelchairs if the handrails are at the appropriate height.

It is not the term. You have been corrected on this multiple times and still refuse to accept the correction, which is not an endearing reflection on you as a person.
You are the only one who corrected me, you only did so once, yet you claim I have been corrected multiple times.

If you actually did some research before making a reply (a quite consistent theme), you would have found that actual people who use wheelchairs prefer that this outdated term not be used.
All people who use wheelchairs? Also, some can walk limited distances, others not at all and I am observing the distinction.

Deliberately using offensive language despite being firmly corrected multiple times is called “being a jerk.”
I didn't deliberately use offensive language, I used language I didn't know was offensive, and I was only corrected once and responded to the correction. Can you accept I didn't know that and not tell me it's my fault?

By the way, I am aware of why most low floor buses have part high floor, I just pointed that out because it proves that buses and trams can't be too short to have steps in the aisles as our Dubai resident implied.
Myrtone
I said buses, not trams. Trams don't have to jam in a large diesel engine and transmission.

A long distance sleeper train is hardly a suitable bench mark of what should happen in commuter services in Sydney nor by the sounds of it is it actually normal through the whole Russian train, rather just localised around dinning car.

So back to some sort of topic on disabled access

- Buses have low floor heights usually between front and middle doors on ridge buses for DAA
- Trams have through low floor heights with DAA access typically limited to near driver unless the tram technology forces this to next door.
- DD commuter and IU trains have DAA access to a platform level area usually near the guard/driver and limited to usually 1 or 2 doors per train. On IU trains then same area as the toilet.
- SD commuter, typically nominated areas are DAA access as there the train has had seating changed to better accommodate the    wheel chairs and again it easier for  staff to assist in a known area. Often I've seen wheel chairs parked on a marked location on the station as train comes in and staff member walks straight up to assist. Imagine helping a wheel chair on a 160m crowded platform if you don't know they are there.

Do mobility limited people want full access to the train? maybe some! Are they going to get it? No Why? Trains are there for mass transit and the masses have a good pair of legs, however the various state govts are doing the right thing to enable people with mobility limitations to move around in the community, although converting 19th century infrastructure will take some time.

Back to B-sets?
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
I suspect this is actually just whatabouttery, but I'll indulge the question.
Our Dubai resident answered or at least tried to, but was inconsistant with the fact that some low floor trams and especially most low floor buses do have part high floor.

Different approaches are taken on trams (total length 20-40 metres) and trains (total length can be 200+ metres) because the different situation demands a different method of balancing priorities.
How about someone bother to explain this in as much detail as they can.

Nuance is a bit of a blind spot for you. I hope that as you mature (perhaps when you approach the second half of your teen years?) you will begin to appreciate this and develop effective strategies for investigating the reasons behind different approaches being taken in different situations.
I am an adult and have been posting here since 2007. This is pathetcially rude.

Really? The only examples I can find are machine-operated hoists for entry/exit where there is a large difference in height between the platform and the train.
See below.

Even the new Russian intercity sleeper cars you mentioned don't have them, a quick bit of research revealed that the lift in the dining car is only for a catering trolley, and that their approach to accomodating passengers with disabilities is to have one car set up to provide appropriate accomodation.
This blog mentions the idea and does claim the Russian double deckers have them.

Far better to design new trains and stations for level entry additional aids such as wheelchair lifts are unnecessary - not least because access is impaired if the lift is out of service. Where level entry is not possible, the next-best option is a small enough difference in height that a manually deployed ramp can be used rather than a machine-operated hoist which will need regular maintenance.
And wherever possible, there will be level entry through all doors, so wheelchairs can go through any of them.

Yes, but actual people who use wheelchairs don't actually use them. They prefer to enter at the door closest to the accommodation which has been specified to suit their needs (so as to minimise the need to fight through a crowd to get to their accommodation) and which will usually have external markings to indicate the best point to board.
Maybe things will change as wheelchair accommodation is provided more widely onboard.

I note that the photo you supplied does not have any grab bars or railings at the appropriate height for a person in a wheelchair to use, so they couldn't move along the aisle while the train is in motion.
Maybe new trains should have them.

A wide aisle is specified on certain rolling stock to facilitate extra standing space, not to facilitate wheelchair movement.
Whatever the reason it is specified, it could be useful for those in wheelchairs if the handrails are at the appropriate height.

It is not the term. You have been corrected on this multiple times and still refuse to accept the correction, which is not an endearing reflection on you as a person.
You are the only one who corrected me, you only did so once, yet you claim I have been corrected multiple times.

If you actually did some research before making a reply (a quite consistent theme), you would have found that actual people who use wheelchairs prefer that this outdated term not be used.
All people who use wheelchairs? Also, some can walk limited distances, others not at all and I am observing the distinction.

Deliberately using offensive language despite being firmly corrected multiple times is called “being a jerk.”
I didn't deliberately use offensive language, I used language I didn't know was offensive, and I was only corrected once and responded to the correction. Can you accept I didn't know that and not tell me it's my fault?

By the way, I am aware of why most low floor buses have part high floor, I just pointed that out because it proves that buses and trams can't be too short to have steps in the aisles as our Dubai resident implied.
I said buses, not trams. Trams don't have to jam in a large diesel engine and transmission.

A long distance sleeper train is hardly a suitable bench mark of what should happen in commuter services in Sydney nor by the sounds of it is it actually normal through the whole Russian train, rather just localised around dinning car.

So back to some sort of topic on disabled access

- Buses have low floor heights usually between front and middle doors on ridge buses for DAA
- Trams have through low floor heights with DAA access typically limited to near driver unless the tram technology forces this to next door.
- DD commuter and IU trains have DAA access to a platform level area usually near the guard/driver and limited to usually 1 or 2 doors per train. On IU trains then same area as the toilet.
- SD commuter, typically nominated areas are DAA access as there the train has had seating changed to better accommodate the    wheel chairs and again it easier for  staff to assist in a known area. Often I've seen wheel chairs parked on a marked location on the station as train comes in and staff member walks straight up to assist. Imagine helping a wheel chair on a 160m crowded platform if you don't know they are there.

Do mobility limited people want full access to the train? maybe some! Are they going to get it? No Why? Trains are there for mass transit and the masses have a good pair of legs, however the various state govts are doing the right thing to enable people with mobility limitations to move around in the community, although converting 19th century infrastructure will take some time.

Back to B-sets?
  Nar-Nar Station Staff

That video is old and the train in that video is not a B set but an a set.
It was just published and I guarantee you it's a B set. When the A sets were unloaded they had no cabs as those were to be fitted as part of the final assembly/fitting-out at Cardiff. This time, the cabs have already been fitted and Downer Rail is playing a smaller role in the final assembly of the trains.

Thanks
I agree its an A set. Do you mean the introduction has been set back or there is a set back concerning the A set. I think you are reading too much into it. I think you will find B1 will be out and about as soon as possible and if it is OK the rest will follow late 2018, early 2019.

You may find there are significant difference with the propulsion electronics etc and care has to be taken that they do not interfere with the signaling system.
nswtrains

what possibly makes you think it's an 8yo video?

Major changes to propulsion.... interesting.... what makes you think that?
  jcouch Assistant Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a commuter train
Looks like the first few arrive within 2 weeks.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/all-aboard-first-new-passenger-trains-set-to-enter-service-in-sydney-20180712-p4zr3x.html
  Matthew Train Controller

Major changes to propulsion.... interesting.... what makes you think that?
Nar-Nar

The B set has a traction package from a different manufacturer than the A set.

Thus the signalling interference testing has to be totally redone, they can't just tick 'like an A set' and move on.
  C3765 Station Master

The Waratah in the video is a B Set although it has the same livery as the A Sets. The livery for B1 was changed after it was delivered and from B2 and onwards I’m pretty sure they came with the new livery.
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Hello All,

re Disability Access , despite additional spaces being allocated for wheelchairs in the refurbishment of Metro sparks in Melbourne , which has the added advantage of adding more capacity in the peaks , I see a problem with the increasing size and weight of mobility aids.

Some of these powered machines are approaching the size of a golf buggy and take up two spaces not one, and the current spaces are larger than the earlier versions. There is an existing space limitation that cannot be expanded , and some of these huge machines are just not suitable for public transport access,

Regards, Radioman.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Hello All,

re Disability Access , despite additional spaces being allocated for wheelchairs in the refurbishment of Metro sparks in Melbourne , which has the added advantage of adding more capacity in the peaks , I see a problem with the increasing size and weight of mobility aids.

Some of these powered machines are approaching the size of a golf buggy and take up two spaces not one, and the current spaces are larger than the earlier versions. There is an existing space limitation that cannot be expanded , and some of these huge machines are just not suitable for public transport access,

Regards, Radioman.
Radioman

Those large scooters are not in use by disabled persons and are not actually permitted to use disabled seating.

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