New Intercity Trains have FIXED Seating?

 
  Transtopic Train Controller

On the matter of the relative seating capacities of the Oscars, V-sets and NIF sets, we shouldn't get too hung up on the latter providing less seating, particularly compared with the Oscars.  The Oscars after all have 3+2 seating, which is not ideal for longer distance Intercity travel, for which they were never intended.  Without getting into the debate about specific numbers, a 10 car NIF set will have close to the same seating capacity as an 8 car V-set, which I suspect was the original design intent.  Comfortable 2+2 seating is more appropriate for long distance travel and maximising the seating capacity should not be the priority.
Having seen photos of the mockup, it is odd that the fixed seats are shown as all facing the centre of the car, the opposite of the Tangara arrangement where the seats face outward from the centre. This means the majority of passengers will be facing eachother which is likely to be unpopular.

As well as having two plus two seating, losing one seat per row, the revised steps reduce the number of rows in both decks of the double deck section by one.

I cannot imagine what the operator and designers were thinking. When the spin is removed, we are ending up with a train with fewer seats per car with unpopular fixed seating.

If these trains are to replace H sets on the peak hour Gosford and Wyong services, which stop at many stations on the North Shore line (I frequently catch these trains in both the morning and afternoon) there will be many more people standing. Ten car trains can't be used because of platform lengths.

I can predict now the reaction of North Shore passengers finding far fewer seats on their usual train….

Peter
M636C
Sorry, disagree.  Comfort on long distance trains should be the priority.  Seating capacity on the shorter Intercity services can be addressed by providing a higher frequency.

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  simstrain Chief Commissioner

How many platforms at Central can currently accommodate a 10 car NIF set? or is that another ($cost) elephant not yet in the room....

Regards,

Catchpoint
catchpoint

Every platform at central terminal can accommodate a 10 car NIF.

Extra frequency from central coast is a possibility once metro is operational as that will free up at least 4 services through the north shore. It is also possible that central coast services will no longer go in or out via the north shore post metro conversion of the ECRL.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Sorry, disagree.  Comfort on long distance trains should be the priority.  Seating capacity on the shorter Intercity services can be addressed by providing a higher frequency.

That problem is best addressed by keeping H sets on those peak hour Gosford and Wyong trains.

Greater frequency on the North Shore is being addressed but there isn't much scope.

The great majority of passengers on Sydney-Newcastle services only travel between one third and one half of the total journey.
Commuting from Gosford would be pretty much the average.

The new intercity trains are wider than they need to be for no possible gain.

They have fewer "comfortable" seats than a V set, because they have longitudinal seats in the end sections which make up a greater proportion of the train because there are fewer shorter cars. Just because the fixed seats have high backs doesn't mean they will be comfortable.

Passengers will be horrified by all the seats in the double deck sections facing the centre of the car.

If someone was trying to make these trains unpopular, there are very few additional things they could do.

Little more than half the seating will be "comfortable", the rest only to suburban standard.

Peter
  a6et Minister for Railways

On the matter of the relative seating capacities of the Oscars, V-sets and NIF sets, we shouldn't get too hung up on the latter providing less seating, particularly compared with the Oscars.  The Oscars after all have 3+2 seating, which is not ideal for longer distance Intercity travel, for which they were never intended.  Without getting into the debate about specific numbers, a 10 car NIF set will have close to the same seating capacity as an 8 car V-set, which I suspect was the original design intent.  Comfortable 2+2 seating is more appropriate for long distance travel and maximising the seating capacity should not be the priority.
Having seen photos of the mockup, it is odd that the fixed seats are shown as all facing the centre of the car, the opposite of the Tangara arrangement where the seats face outward from the centre. This means the majority of passengers will be facing eachother which is likely to be unpopular.

As well as having two plus two seating, losing one seat per row, the revised steps reduce the number of rows in both decks of the double deck section by one.

I cannot imagine what the operator and designers were thinking. When the spin is removed, we are ending up with a train with fewer seats per car with unpopular fixed seating.

If these trains are to replace H sets on the peak hour Gosford and Wyong services, which stop at many stations on the North Shore line (I frequently catch these trains in both the morning and afternoon) there will be many more people standing. Ten car trains can't be used because of platform lengths.

I can predict now the reaction of North Shore passengers finding far fewer seats on their usual train….

Peter
Sorry, disagree.  Comfort on long distance trains should be the priority.  Seating capacity on the shorter Intercity services can be addressed by providing a higher frequency.
Transtopic
Comfort on long distance trains should be priorities, but so should any train where people have to travel more than 1 1/2 hours at worst or better still over an hour.  As for providing services at higher frequencies in cases such as the peak hours in Sydney that is the biggest problem that faces governments to provide more services owing to the squeeze from the old Illawarra Junction amalgamation of the various lines.  Goodness knows how bad it would be if the trains from Cronulla & Waterfall were not diverted to the Eastern Suburbs and had to also mix with the Circle trains.

The I/U services often get blocked and therefore are late owing to early freight services break downs, also slow movements into the CBD areas, some of the CC services go via the North Shore which helps some commuters but means others have to change trains at Hornsby for other destinations.  That makes what is maybe a 1 1/2 hour journey much longer, at least it allows for leg stretching at Hornsby, once the Macquarie park line closes that means months where commuters have to file out on to buses, meaning longer overall journey times.

To travel from the SC, Mountains and from Newcastle, CC each have issues with the level of comfort and the like.  These new trains won't provide the comfort needed, and already the overall costs of them are blowing out with the work needed on the mountains, how many stations can take the 10carriages will determine how far they will go and at what stops, unless they introduce a means like many stations have and that is passengers must travel in set carriages if they want to alight, some stations if someone wants to get off have to notify the guard, no guard on these trains?

I can well imagine a large commuter backlash over these trains and could mean a lot of later costs in modifying them. Thing is that there is still the Country train contracts to come out, and I would not be surprised if they also are targeted once again to have fixed seats in them.

When I worked on the etr as a driver, the best normal suburban service we had for time travel was the old heron service from Emu plains to the City and then to Hornsby, it had an 8carDD set with limited stops Penrith, St Mary's, Mt Druitt, Blacktown, Parramatta, Redfern, Central - All to Hornsby.  The time was 1hour Emu to Central the train was standing room only from Blacktown and congestion on/off at Parramatta, those two stations times could be extended meaning a fast run between them to maintain the tt.

While such trains were great for the tt and commuters to get good services, only those who could get seats had comfort, and standing room only from Blacktown was often uncomfortable, especially the need to have hand grips. Track may be a bit smoother these days and trains do not seem to run to the same speeds, and in the whole mix seating and comfort levels should be what commuters are wanting not what arrogant politicians force onto the general public and do so by saying they listen, but never seen, also the current toy features of usb and power points, how much extra money has that put onto the cost of the trains, and if they fail what cost to fix them or more likely another dream idea is dumped but the general tax payers have to foot the bill and often do not get what they need let alone want.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Has anybody ever considered that what if the seats are actually comfortable?  
The tangara backlash occurred because they were average suburban seats that couldn't be flipped.  Not some higher level of comfort.
  spamus Beginner

Having seen photos of the mockup, it is odd that the fixed seats are shown as all facing the centre of the car, the opposite of the Tangara arrangement where the seats face outward from the centre. This means the majority of passengers will be facing eachother which is likely to be unpopular.

As well as having two plus two seating, losing one seat per row, the revised steps reduce the number of rows in both decks of the double deck section by one.

I cannot imagine what the operator and designers were thinking. When the spin is removed, we are ending up with a train with fewer seats per car with unpopular fixed seating.

If these trains are to replace H sets on the peak hour Gosford and Wyong services, which stop at many stations on the North Shore line (I frequently catch these trains in both the morning and afternoon) there will be many more people standing. Ten car trains can't be used because of platform lengths.

I can predict now the reaction of North Shore passengers finding far fewer seats on their usual train….

Peter
M636C
Oddly enough, from the mockup photos the upper deck looks like it has one less row but the lower deck doesn't. Then again I'm not sure if they're showing seats from a different carriage or not.

I'm also not sure what mockup you were looking at, as this video clearly shows the seats facing away from the centre:


  M636C Minister for Railways

Has anybody ever considered that what if the seats are actually comfortable?  
The tangara backlash occurred because they were average suburban seats that couldn't be flipped.  Not some higher level of comfort.
tazzer96
As I indicated, even if the seats are comfortable, Sydney passengers avoid looking at eachother.

With all the seats facing the centre of the car passengers will be forced to look at eachother.

And these trains will have the lowest proportion of "comfortable" seats of any train since the introduction of double deck trains in Sydney. With 2+2 seats and one less row, there are 14 fewer seats on each deck on each car compared to an Oscar, 28 fewer seats per car, meaning 28 more passengers standing per car in peak hour. But the same number of spartan longitudinal seats in the end saloons, making up a greater proportion of seating than in an Oscar (or Millennium or Waratah).

What if the fixed seats end up being less comfortable than those in an Oscar?

Peter
  a6et Minister for Railways

Has anybody ever considered that what if the seats are actually comfortable?  
The tangara backlash occurred because they were average suburban seats that couldn't be flipped.  Not some higher level of comfort.
As I indicated, even if the seats are comfortable, Sydney passengers avoid looking at eachother.

With all the seats facing the centre of the car passengers will be forced to look at eachother.

And these trains will have the lowest proportion of "comfortable" seats of any train since the introduction of double deck trains in Sydney. With 2+2 seats and one less row, there are 14 fewer seats on each deck on each car compared to an Oscar, 28 fewer seats per car, meaning 28 more passengers standing per car in peak hour. But the same number of spartan longitudinal seats in the end saloons, making up a greater proportion of seating than in an Oscar (or Millennium or Waratah).

What if the fixed seats end up being less comfortable than those in an Oscar?

Peter
M636C
Not forgetting Peter that the middle seating positions are facing each other, travel on any of the IU trains now, & in the upper deck there are two rows that face each other depending on the direction of travel at the end of each car, meaning those in them play knees games and very little leg and feet room, I rarely see those seats full with the seats on the wall usually only having one person sitting in them although on one side that has 3 seats, the one on the aisle side will at least be able to stretch their legs out, but when people come up the steps they have to move.

What I often see even in the peak times is passengers coming up the steps looking to see if there are any seats vacant. & if those end ones are the only ones they turn around and often sit on the steps instead.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Oddly enough, from the mockup photos the upper deck looks like it has one less row but the lower deck doesn't. Then again I'm not sure if they're showing seats from a different carriage or not.

I'm also not sure what mockup you were looking at, as this video clearly shows the seats facing away from the centre:


I was looking at a photograph of the mockup of two cars, viewed from the outside.
This clearly showed the seats on the upper deck facing the centre.
Of course, this could have been changed after the photo was taken.

It also showed that there were only four double windows on each deck, compared to four double and one single window on the Oscar trains. I understand that the angle of the steps has been reduced, meaning that the steps occupy more space lengthwise. There may be seats without windows, as there are on other trains, and these might be confined to the lower deck.

But there will be one fewer row in the double deck section than in the Oscar. This was confirmed to me by a senior engineer working on the project. He was absolutely scathing about the trains and the management of the project.

You could have had a larger number of 2+2 fixed seats in an electric version of the Hunter railcar, all on a single deck, in a car that already fitted the Blue Mountains and that would provide better amenities for the elderly and disabled. And you would only need eight cars instead of ten. All you would lose would be the longitudinal seats in the ends and some standing room.

There is clearly an agenda here that doesn't involve improved comfort for passengers.

Peter
  M636C Minister for Railways

Not forgetting Peter that the middle seating positions are facing each other, travel on any of the IU trains now, & in the upper deck there are two rows that face each other depending on the direction of travel at the end of each car, meaning those in them play knees games and very little leg and feet room, I rarely see those seats full with the seats on the wall usually only having one person sitting in them although on one side that has 3 seats, the one on the aisle side will at least be able to stretch their legs out, but when people come up the steps they have to move.

What I often see even in the peak times is passengers coming up the steps looking to see if there are any seats vacant. & if those end ones are the only ones they turn around and often sit on the steps instead.


It is possible that the centre facing arrangement was tested since it had only one set of seats where passengers were "knee to knee" as you describe...

If the videos supersede the photo I've seen, we are back to the Tangara arrangement.

Remember that Endeavour cars had fixed seats in the Tangara arrangement as built, but these were replaced by Oscar type reversible seating at the mid life overhaul, to the great satisfaction of passengers.

Remember that Endeavours run Inter City services on the South, West and Illawarra....

A dual power diesel and electric Hunter could run through services to Goulburn and Bathurst....

Peter
  tankengine Beginner

How many platforms at Central can currently accommodate a 10 car NIF set? or is that another ($cost) elephant not yet in the room....

Regards,

Catchpoint
I don't know the exact platform lengths at Central Terminal, but from my observation, I think just about all platforms can accommodate an 8 car V-set, which is the same nominal length as a 10 car NIF (200m).  The only exception may be platforms 12 and 13, but platforms 13, 14 and 15 are now closed for the metro platforms construction.  When the metro construction is completed, it is my understanding that platforms 13 and 14 will be reinstated and lengthened along with platform 12.  There will be no platform 15 and it begs the question whether the suburban platforms will be renumbered.
Transtopic
Katoomba Station can fit an eight car V set but is to be lengthened by 30m to accommodate the new trains, which suggests that the new trains will be longer
  Transtopic Train Controller

How many platforms at Central can currently accommodate a 10 car NIF set? or is that another ($cost) elephant not yet in the room....

Regards,

Catchpoint
I don't know the exact platform lengths at Central Terminal, but from my observation, I think just about all platforms can accommodate an 8 car V-set, which is the same nominal length as a 10 car NIF (200m).  The only exception may be platforms 12 and 13, but platforms 13, 14 and 15 are now closed for the metro platforms construction.  When the metro construction is completed, it is my understanding that platforms 13 and 14 will be reinstated and lengthened along with platform 12.  There will be no platform 15 and it begs the question whether the suburban platforms will be renumbered.
Katoomba Station can fit an eight car V set but is to be lengthened by 30m to accommodate the new trains, which suggests that the new trains will be longer
tankengine
Although the exact specifications for the NIF haven't been confirmed as far as I know, they appear to be similar to the Oscars.  An 8 Oscar is approximately 163m in length and depending on the makeup of a 10 car set, the latter would be nominally around 203.5m in length.  The 30m in additional length of the 10 car NIF you're referring to may in fact be 3m.  An 8 car V-set is about 196m in length.  The NIF car doesn't look like it will be as long as a V-set car.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Oddly enough, from the mockup photos the upper deck looks like it has one less row but the lower deck doesn't. Then again I'm not sure if they're showing seats from a different carriage or not.

I'm also not sure what mockup you were looking at, as this video clearly shows the seats facing away from the centre:


I was looking at a photograph of the mockup of two cars, viewed from the outside.
This clearly showed the seats on the upper deck facing the centre.
Of course, this could have been changed after the photo was taken.

It also showed that there were only four double windows on each deck, compared to four double and one single window on the Oscar trains. I understand that the angle of the steps has been reduced, meaning that the steps occupy more space lengthwise. There may be seats without windows, as there are on other trains, and these might be confined to the lower deck.

But there will be one fewer row in the double deck section than in the Oscar. This was confirmed to me by a senior engineer working on the project. He was absolutely scathing about the trains and the management of the project.

You could have had a larger number of 2+2 fixed seats in an electric version of the Hunter railcar, all on a single deck, in a car that already fitted the Blue Mountains and that would provide better amenities for the elderly and disabled. And you would only need eight cars instead of ten. All you would lose would be the longitudinal seats in the ends and some standing room.

There is clearly an agenda here that doesn't involve improved comfort for passengers.

Peter
M636C
From what I have seen of photo's and plans all seats face the center of the carriage, meaning there are two lots of facing seats on each level, in the middle, its simply a transfer from the ends of the compartment without the ability to change the direction of travel to face forward.
  nswtrains Deputy Commissioner

How many platforms at Central can currently accommodate a 10 car NIF set? or is that another ($cost) elephant not yet in the room....

Regards,

Catchpoint
I don't know the exact platform lengths at Central Terminal, but from my observation, I think just about all platforms can accommodate an 8 car V-set, which is the same nominal length as a 10 car NIF (200m).  The only exception may be platforms 12 and 13, but platforms 13, 14 and 15 are now closed for the metro platforms construction.  When the metro construction is completed, it is my understanding that platforms 13 and 14 will be reinstated and lengthened along with platform 12.  There will be no platform 15 and it begs the question whether the suburban platforms will be renumbered.
Katoomba Station can fit an eight car V set but is to be lengthened by 30m to accommodate the new trains, which suggests that the new trains will be longer
Although the exact specifications for the NIF haven't been confirmed as far as I know, they appear to be similar to the Oscars.  An 8 Oscar is approximately 163m in length and depending on the makeup of a 10 car set, the latter would be nominally around 203.5m in length.  The 30m in additional length of the 10 car NIF you're referring to may in fact be 3m.  An 8 car V-set is about 196m in length.  The NIF car doesn't look like it will be as long as a V-set car.
Transtopic
They are the same length as an OSCAR car. In fact just modified OSCARs.
  M636C Minister for Railways

I regret that I made an error earlier:
There is one less row in the two deck sections in driving cars than in non driving cars...
So

With 2+2 seats and one less row, there are 14 fewer seats on each deck on each car compared to an Oscar, 28 fewer seats per car, meaning 28 more passengers standing per car in peak hour.

Should have read

With 2+2 seats and one less row, there are 14 fewer seats on each deck on each intermediate car and 13 fewer seats in each deck of a driving car compared to an Oscar, 26 or 28 fewer seats per car, meaning 26 or 28 more passengers standing per car in peak hour.

Peter
  Transtopic Train Controller

I regret that I made an error earlier:
There is one less row in the two deck sections in driving cars than in non driving cars...
So

With 2+2 seats and one less row, there are 14 fewer seats on each deck on each car compared to an Oscar, 28 fewer seats per car, meaning 28 more passengers standing per car in peak hour.

Should have read

With 2+2 seats and one less row, there are 14 fewer seats on each deck on each intermediate car and 13 fewer seats in each deck of a driving car compared to an Oscar, 26 or 28 fewer seats per car, meaning 26 or 28 more passengers standing per car in peak hour.

Peter
M636C
With respect Peter, I think you're making too big an issue about the shortfall of the seating capacity of the NIF compared with the Oscars. I believe that the decision to adopt a standard 2+2 seating configuration for the NIF is the correct one.  This has all been said before, but the Oscars were never meant for longer distance Intercity travel.  From my observation on this and other sites, nobody likes them, even for the shorter Intercity commutes.  Almost universally, the more comfortable 2+2 seating configuration of the V-sets is preferred.  The longer NIF trains on some services, as well as higher frequencies where possible, will address this seating shortfall.

There's little likelihood of Oscars being retained for Intercity services, even for the shorter routes, as the intention is that as the NIF is deployed, they will gradually be cascaded down to suburban services where they belong.
  a6et Minister for Railways

I regret that I made an error earlier:
There is one less row in the two deck sections in driving cars than in non driving cars...
So

With 2+2 seats and one less row, there are 14 fewer seats on each deck on each car compared to an Oscar, 28 fewer seats per car, meaning 28 more passengers standing per car in peak hour.

Should have read

With 2+2 seats and one less row, there are 14 fewer seats on each deck on each intermediate car and 13 fewer seats in each deck of a driving car compared to an Oscar, 26 or 28 fewer seats per car, meaning 26 or 28 more passengers standing per car in peak hour.

Peter
With respect Peter, I think you're making too big an issue about the shortfall of the seating capacity of the NIF compared with the Oscars. I believe that the decision to adopt a standard 2+2 seating configuration for the NIF is the correct one.  This has all been said before, but the Oscars were never meant for longer distance Intercity travel.  From my observation on this and other sites, nobody likes them, even for the shorter Intercity commutes.  Almost universally, the more comfortable 2+2 seating configuration of the V-sets is preferred.  The longer NIF trains on some services, as well as higher frequencies where possible, will address this seating shortfall.

There's little likelihood of Oscars being retained for Intercity services, even for the shorter routes, as the intention is that as the NIF is deployed, they will gradually be cascaded down to suburban services where they belong.
Transtopic
I much prefer the 2 seat option over the 3+2. and it really makes me wonder why these new sets had to be built wider than the V sets, there is no real reason to have a contract that has to have huge dollars spent on fixing stations, tunnels and overhead owing to these trains being wider than the V sets, or at least to conform with existing gauge requirements.
  Transtopic Train Controller

Perhaps a reason why they opted for the wider stock is that the doors are more centrally located, unlike the V-sets, where they are at the ends of the cars. Narrower stock with doors positioned like the Oscars would exacerbate the gap on curved platforms with a concave interface. Just a thought.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Perhaps a reason why they opted for the wider stock is that the doors are more centrally located, unlike the V-sets, where they are at the ends of the cars. Narrower stock with doors positioned like the Oscars would exacerbate the gap on curved platforms with a concave interface. Just a thought.
Transtopic
Fair point with the doors positioning, however they could still have been built in the same way as they are coming but narrower.

Dare I suggest that the main reasoning is that it allows for more standing room on the trains, owing to the less number of seats.

Also very interesting to see the new glamour Suburban trains out on the run yesterday with the Mac st parrots flapping about them but I see the backrests of the seats have a aisle handle that is suspiciously like the other sets that allow for through over back rests, for passengers to face direction of travel.

I travelled back from Wickham station to Victoria st yesterday and saw what could be a reason for fixed seats, and that was two school girls who got on the train and put the seats facing each other so they could talk away and compare thumbs machines with each other.  2 people taking up 4 seats, and its very very common. One advantage I guess of the fixed seats is that at least it will reduce or illuminate the bogon crowd who throw themselves down, back pack on seat next to them and feet up on the seat with shoes on against the backrests.
  M636C Minister for Railways

With respect Peter, I think you're making too big an issue about the shortfall of the seating capacity of the NIF compared with the Oscars. I believe that the decision to adopt a standard 2+2 seating configuration for the NIF is the correct one.  This has all been said before, but the Oscars were never meant for longer distance Intercity travel.  From my observation on this and other sites, nobody likes them, even for the shorter Intercity commutes.  Almost universally, the more comfortable 2+2 seating configuration of the V-sets is preferred.  The longer NIF trains on some services, as well as higher frequencies where possible, will address this seating shortfall.

There's little likelihood of Oscars being retained for Intercity services, even for the shorter routes, as the intention is that as the NIF is deployed, they will gradually be cascaded down to suburban services where they belong.
Transtopic
My concern is not the overall shortfall of seating, but the much smaller proportion of comfortable seating.

The V sets because of their end doors have the same seating on all three floor levels.

The new Inter City trains have "comfortable" seating only in the double deck section and suburban style longitudinal seats outboard of the entrances. Combined with the reduction in the number of seat rows in the two deck section, they will have the smallest proportion of "long distance" seating of any train yet purchased. The single deck interurbans and V sets had all of the seating to the same standard.

Even the Oscars had the same number of comfortable seats as the suburban sets.

I know that longitudinal seating can be arranged to assist the disabled and passengers with limited mobility.
But at least some of the end sections could have had fixed transverse seating so that the space was available for long distance passengers.

On occasion, I've travelled to Wyong on an Oscar and changed there to a V set for Newcastle. In the off peak, I could use either double or triple seats on the Oscar and neither were significantly worse than the V set seats, when there were only one or two passengers per seat. As a tall person, I think there was more knee room on the Oscar. The lack of the clumsy centre armrest on the V sets made getting to a window seat easier, and because the seats reversed, more forward facing window seats were available. While the ride on an Oscar isn't as good as a Waratah, it isn't much worse than a V set, even at speed. The passenger information on the Oscar gives a better warning to passengers of short platforms.

In the peak hour, when catching an Oscar on the North Shore, I'm happy to take advantage of the extra seating in an Oscar and I don't look forward to finding a  new train with significantly fewer seats in the eight cars that will fit the underground stations.

In case my main point was missed, these new trains provide two classes of accommodation, acceptable and very poor, for passengers paying the same fares. This is the first time this has been done and it is simply to allow the use of a car body designed for something else.

Peter
  Transtopic Train Controller

Perhaps a reason why they opted for the wider stock is that the doors are more centrally located, unlike the V-sets, where they are at the ends of the cars. Narrower stock with doors positioned like the Oscars would exacerbate the gap on curved platforms with a concave interface. Just a thought.
Fair point with the doors positioning, however they could still have been built in the same way as they are coming but narrower.

Dare I suggest that the main reasoning is that it allows for more standing room on the trains, owing to the less number of seats.
a6et
It just might have been easier to adopt the Oscar design, without having to go through the whole process of redesigning a narrower body with similar characteristics, such as door spacing.  With the 2+2 seating, it's basically a compromise between the V-sets and Oscars.  I'd be surprised if providing more standing room was a major consideration, as it may just be a by-product of the change from 3+2 to 2+2 seating, which we both agree is more appropriate and comfortable for Intercity travel.
  M636C Minister for Railways

It just might have been easier to adopt the Oscar design, without having to go through the whole process of redesigning a narrower body with similar characteristics, such as door spacing.  With the 2+2 seating, it's basically a compromise between the V-sets and Oscars.  I'd be surprised if providing more standing room was a major consideration, as it may just be a by-product of the change from 3+2 to 2+2 seating, which we both agree is more appropriate and comfortable for Intercity travel.

But since the trains aren't intended for suburban travel, why do they have so many longitudinal suburban seats?

It would be easy enough to fit the fixed 2+2 transverse seating in those ends not required for disabled and wheelchair seating or for the large disabled toilets. You could even fit power doors between the end compartment and the entrance vestibule which would give a quieter and more consistent temperature.

After all, I'm old enough to remember when single deck suburban cars had 2+3 transverse seats in the ends above the bogies, the same as in the central saloon. They had sliding doors to the entrances too...

It would increase the number of seats a little but improve the comfort a lot.

Peter
  Transtopic Train Controller

It just might have been easier to adopt the Oscar design, without having to go through the whole process of redesigning a narrower body with similar characteristics, such as door spacing.  With the 2+2 seating, it's basically a compromise between the V-sets and Oscars.  I'd be surprised if providing more standing room was a major consideration, as it may just be a by-product of the change from 3+2 to 2+2 seating, which we both agree is more appropriate and comfortable for Intercity travel.

But since the trains aren't intended for suburban travel, why do they have so many longitudinal suburban seats?

It would be easy enough to fit the fixed 2+2 transverse seating in those ends not required for disabled and wheelchair seating or for the large disabled toilets. You could even fit power doors between the end compartment and the entrance vestibule which would give a quieter and more consistent temperature.

After all, I'm old enough to remember when single deck suburban cars had 2+3 transverse seats in the ends above the bogies, the same as in the central saloon. They had sliding doors to the entrances too...

It would increase the number of seats a little but improve the comfort a lot.

Peter
M636C
I stand to be corrected, but I can't recall seeing any artist's perspective of the seating arrangement in the end saloons of the NIF.  You shouldn't assume that it will be the same as the Oscars.  After all, the Government is presenting the NIF as a more comfortable and passenger friendly version of the Oscars for Intercity travel, so why would they retain longitudinal seating?  There's no reason why it couldn't be transverse seating similar to the SD sections of the V-sets.

The NIF is designed primarily for Intercity travel and the need to maximise seating for the limited number of suburban commuters is irrelevant.  In fact, I can see some suburban stops being phased out altogether with only the major centres and terminuses such as Hornsby, Penrith, Parramatta, Strathfield and Waterfall being retained.  On the North Shore Line, it is likely that the current CCN Intercity services will be diverted to the Northern Line from Hornsby to the CBD via Strathfield with its triple and quad sections of track allowing overtaking opportunities, which aren't available on the former. This would be particularly relevant during the interim period between the opening of the Metro Northwest terminating at Chatswood and its eventual extension to the CBD. What happens after that is open to conjecture.

As I mentioned earlier, the overcrowding on existing Intercity services could be addressed by providing a higher frequency, although I acknowledge that this isn't possible on all lines, particularly for South Coast services.  This just highlights the failure of the Government to upgrade the existing network to meet the unprecedented demand, while it takes its eyes off the ball in focussing on its metro agenda.
  a6et Minister for Railways

It just might have been easier to adopt the Oscar design, without having to go through the whole process of redesigning a narrower body with similar characteristics, such as door spacing.  With the 2+2 seating, it's basically a compromise between the V-sets and Oscars.  I'd be surprised if providing more standing room was a major consideration, as it may just be a by-product of the change from 3+2 to 2+2 seating, which we both agree is more appropriate and comfortable for Intercity travel.

But since the trains aren't intended for suburban travel, why do they have so many longitudinal suburban seats?

It would be easy enough to fit the fixed 2+2 transverse seating in those ends not required for disabled and wheelchair seating or for the large disabled toilets. You could even fit power doors between the end compartment and the entrance vestibule which would give a quieter and more consistent temperature.

After all, I'm old enough to remember when single deck suburban cars had 2+3 transverse seats in the ends above the bogies, the same as in the central saloon. They had sliding doors to the entrances too...

It would increase the number of seats a little but improve the comfort a lot.

Peter
I stand to be corrected, but I can't recall seeing any artist's perspective of the seating arrangement in the end saloons of the NIF.  You shouldn't assume that it will be the same as the Oscars.  After all, the Government is presenting the NIF as a more comfortable and passenger friendly version of the Oscars for Intercity travel, so why would they retain longitudinal seating?  There's no reason why it couldn't be transverse seating similar to the SD sections of the V-sets.

The NIF is designed primarily for Intercity travel and the need to maximise seating for the limited number of suburban commuters is irrelevant.  In fact, I can see some suburban stops being phased out altogether with only the major centres and terminuses such as Hornsby, Penrith, Parramatta, Strathfield and Waterfall being retained.  On the North Shore Line, it is likely that the current CCN Intercity services will be diverted to the Northern Line from Hornsby to the CBD via Strathfield with its triple and quad sections of track allowing overtaking opportunities, which aren't available on the former.
Transtopic
Thing is that there are more stops in what used to be only ones that suburban services stopped at, especially of the CC & NCLE services.  One of them being Berowra for school kids, the others being at Epping for the McQuarie Park - Chatswood line aslo at Eastwood.  The Macpark line is one that is understandable owing to the amount who alight there for work, but Eastwood?

Likewise the old Interurban stops at station within the Metro areas were for set downs only, these days, all stops by ETR type trains are both alighting and pick up stations.  When an IU gets to places like Penrith, Blacktown, Westmead and Strathfield from the west, and Hornsby Epping and Eastwood off the NCL line its a huge squeeze getting off as well as getting on at each of those stations, and even in off peak trains its standing room only from Hornsby in.

These stations are basically being used as ordinary commuter stops inside the Sydney trains area as against being outer line trains.

You have to consider that at Hornsby, the Macpark train is waiting on platform 4 for the IU to arrive and go first with it following.  At Epping there are all stations to Burwood trains waiting in the middle platform 2 while Eastwood Passengers cram into the IU set, rather than wait another 5 minutes for the other one to depart.
  Transtopic Train Controller

I stand to be corrected, but I can't recall seeing any artist's perspective of the seating arrangement in the end saloons of the NIF.  You shouldn't assume that it will be the same as the Oscars.  After all, the Government is presenting the NIF as a more comfortable and passenger friendly version of the Oscars for Intercity travel, so why would they retain longitudinal seating?  There's no reason why it couldn't be transverse seating similar to the SD sections of the V-sets.

The NIF is designed primarily for Intercity travel and the need to maximise seating for the limited number of suburban commuters is irrelevant.  In fact, I can see some suburban stops being phased out altogether with only the major centres and terminuses such as Hornsby, Penrith, Parramatta, Strathfield and Waterfall being retained.  On the North Shore Line, it is likely that the current CCN Intercity services will be diverted to the Northern Line from Hornsby to the CBD via Strathfield with its triple and quad sections of track allowing overtaking opportunities, which aren't available on the former.
Thing is that there are more stops in what used to be only ones that suburban services stopped at, especially of the CC & NCLE services.  One of them being Berowra for school kids, the others being at Epping for the McQuarie Park - Chatswood line aslo at Eastwood.  The Macpark line is one that is understandable owing to the amount who alight there for work, but Eastwood?

Likewise the old Interurban stops at station within the Metro areas were for set downs only, these days, all stops by ETR type trains are both alighting and pick up stations.  When an IU gets to places like Penrith, Blacktown, Westmead and Strathfield from the west, and Hornsby Epping and Eastwood off the NCL line its a huge squeeze getting off as well as getting on at each of those stations, and even in off peak trains its standing room only from Hornsby in.

These stations are basically being used as ordinary commuter stops inside the Sydney trains area as against being outer line trains.

You have to consider that at Hornsby, the Macpark train is waiting on platform 4 for the IU to arrive and go first with it following.  At Epping there are all stations to Burwood trains waiting in the middle platform 2 while Eastwood Passengers cram into the IU set, rather than wait another 5 minutes for the other one to depart.
a6et
Although I'm now retired, I have to admit that on my infrequent trips to the CBD these days, I prefer to catch the Intercity service from either Eastwood or Epping to Central, even though I have to interchange to reach Town Hall or Wynyard.  In fact, in my younger days when I was working, I used to catch the CC U-boats from Eastwood.  It's a psychological thing in preferring an express service, even with the then inconvenience of having to stand all the way, not so much in the off-peak, and interchange at Central.

The reason for CCN Intercity services stopping at Eastwood is that it was up until recently, the major retail/commercial centre on the Northern Line between Burwood/Strathfield and Hornsby, although Rhodes has now overtaken it in terms of office development, but retail wise it is still much larger.  It also is the hub for an extensive network of regional and local bus services.  Despite the emergence of Epping as a major rail junction and Priority Precinct, it is still a much smaller centre than Eastwood.  However, I can see the logic for CCN services skipping Eastwood, as they now do on weekends, in favour of Epping with its connection to Macquarie Park.

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