Murray Basin standardisation

 
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Or we just get the ol' Double Saw Bye happening... Razz

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  Bonzel Locomotive Driver

Loop lengths are Emu 840m , Sutherland 1000m , Donald 734m , Watchem 970m , Birchip 825m , Woomelang 640m , Speed 800m , Ouyen 800m no.2 rd , Carwarp not listed.
  Bonzel Locomotive Driver

Loop lengths are Emu 840m , Sutherland 1000m , Donald 734m , Watchem 970m , Birchip 825m , Woomelang 640m , Speed 800m , Ouyen 800m no.2 rd , Carwarp not listed.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Loop lengths are Emu 840m , Sutherland 1000m , Donald 734m , Watchem 970m , Birchip 825m , Woomelang 640m , Speed 800m , Ouyen 800m no.2 rd , Carwarp not listed.
Bonzel
If these lengths are correct and, sadly, I have no reason to doubt them. all they have done is regauge a 1950s BG steam railway. Perhaps someone measured 60 x GYs rather than 60 x VQCXs ? None of these loops will fit a 60 wagon container train or a 60 wagon grain train.
If road was designing a railway with which it was intending to compete it could not have done better although this could not have been a conspiracy - clearly we are not smart enough to organise a conspiracy.
Who set the design standards for this project? Who approved them and did the Feds even look at what was intended before tipping in their bucket of money?
A 'one engine in steam' railway.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Worth mentioning at this juncture that the business case does not even mention passing loops save for when it claims the costs can’t be compared to the NE line job.

In other words, someone told the transport Sir Humphries that a standardisation was required, and a standardisation was delivered...
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
I have been a critic of this project of late as I am sure you all know but with the loops I think we just have to wait and see what happens down the track.

ATM most grain trains run in 40 wagon blocks not 60 and with the increase in axle load you will see more grain on each train that what was able to be carried before. This in itself is one of the cost benefits stated in the business case.

Should demand for rail ramp up to the point where operators are crying out for loops able to accommodate 60 car trains then moving a set of points after you have done the earthworks and laid rail for an extension of a loop is not a difficult task.

As it stands you will be able to cross a grainie with a 60 flatbed Fruity as long as the grain train will fit into the loop.

Also if you read the business case they talk about the possible / probable need post 2025 for the mythical Trans Continental Link from Mildura up to somewhere near Broken Hill and how that would require yet another upgrade of the line to a higher axle load.

I wouldn't mind betting that V/Line / VicGov are hedging their bets with the Yelta line that it will be handed over to the ARTC at a later date and so are not over capitalizing on it at this stage because they can get someone else to pay for it then.

BG
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
With Grain Trains, consideration also needs to be given to the length of the sidings at the loading points too. Not knowing the Safeworking rules, do overlength grain trains need to be split, locos put on either end etc in some cases now?
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
I have been a critic of this project of late as I am sure you all know but with the loops I think we just have to wait and see what happens down the track.

ATM most grain trains run in 40 wagon blocks not 60 and with the increase in axle load you will see more grain on each train that what was able to be carried before. This in itself is one of the cost benefits stated in the business case.

Should demand for rail ramp up to the point where operators are crying out for loops able to accommodate 60 car trains then moving a set of points after you have done the earthworks and laid rail for an extension of a loop is not a difficult task.

As it stands you will be able to cross a grainie with a 60 flatbed Fruity as long as the grain train will fit into the loop.

Also if you read the business case they talk about the possible / probable need post 2025 for the mythical Trans Continental Link from Mildura up to somewhere near Broken Hill and how that would require yet another upgrade of the line to a higher axle load.

I wouldn't mind betting that V/Line / VicGov are hedging their bets with the Yelta line that it will be handed over to the ARTC at a later date and so are not over capitalizing on it at this stage because they can get someone else to pay for it then.

BG
BrentonGolding

Well done BG, an optimistic post, Top Effort.

Yes, 40ish grain wagons seems to be the number, think I've seen 47 somewhere, a fair few 45's, SSR had a big consist sometime ago. Your right there should be definite move to a 60 wagon consist and this would certainly pump their cost benifit ratio. Trainplanner did some measurement on that and cannot remember the length of loop required, doesn't matter much, it may depend on the Fruity, and the length they want to run, so possibly 1500m maybe the target.

BigShunter.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
With Grain Trains, consideration also needs to be given to the length of the sidings at the loading points too. Not knowing the Safeworking rules, do overlength grain trains need to be split, locos put on either end etc in some cases now?
mikesyd
Probably yet another field that needs to be re-vamped, out of the 1950's, either a very long siding or if there is sufficient room a decent balloon loop and I reckon a radius of 400m is about the tightest curve, you can get away with.
Dimboola has a reasonable siding, the other GrainFlow sites balloon loop, which makes for very easy loading.

BigShunter.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I have been a critic of this project of late as I am sure you all know but with the loops I think we just have to wait and see what happens down the track.

ATM most grain trains run in 40 wagon blocks not 60 and with the increase in axle load you will see more grain on each train that what was able to be carried before. This in itself is one of the cost benefits stated in the business case.

Should demand for rail ramp up to the point where operators are crying out for loops able to accommodate 60 car trains then moving a set of points after you have done the earthworks and laid rail for an extension of a loop is not a difficult task.

As it stands you will be able to cross a grainie with a 60 flatbed Fruity as long as the grain train will fit into the loop.

Also if you read the business case they talk about the possible / probable need post 2025 for the mythical Trans Continental Link from Mildura up to somewhere near Broken Hill and how that would require yet another upgrade of the line to a higher axle load.

I wouldn't mind betting that V/Line / VicGov are hedging their bets with the Yelta line that it will be handed over to the ARTC at a later date and so are not over capitalizing on it at this stage because they can get someone else to pay for it then.

BG
BrentonGolding
My two bob's worth in bold:

I have been a critic of this project of late as I am sure you all know but with the loops I think we just have to wait and see what happens down the track.

ATM most grain trains run in 40 wagon blocks not 60 and with the increase in axle load you will see more grain on each train that what was able to be carried before. This in itself is one of the cost benefits stated in the business case.

Maybe so, 40 was the BG standard upon which standardisation has not improved. Do we know (ie is there any confirmation) that the old hoppers still largely in use have the cubic volume available to carry the extra grain required to take advantage of the additional axleload now theoretically possible? Will longer grain trains never be contemplated? Think single tip truck of grain compared with B double of grain!

Should demand for rail ramp up to the point where operators are crying out for loops able to accommodate 60 car trains then moving a set of points after you have done the earthworks and laid rail for an extension of a loop is not a difficult task.

Maybe not difficult but will be expensive compared with little more than a 'lunchtime job' while the standardisation gang was on the spot.

As it stands you will be able to cross a grainie with a 60 flatbed Fruity as long as the grain train will fit into the loop.

Isn't it set up that the longer train must take the loop in one direction whether there is a cross or not? Increased track wear, rolling stock wear, lost running time!

Also if you read the business case they talk about the possible / probable need post 2025 for the mythical Trans Continental Link from Mildura up to somewhere near Broken Hill and how that would require yet another upgrade of the line to a higher axle load.

A business case can produce any result desired if enough lies, half truths, spin and crap are fed in by incompetents and worse.

I wouldn't mind betting that V/Line / VicGov are hedging their bets with the Yelta line that it will be handed over to the ARTC at a later date and so are not over capitalizing on it at this stage because they can get someone else to pay for it then.

The current standardisation (rather than 'upgrade') will turn to dust long before then.
I know that there will be many who will disagree but all we have achieved is a Victorian era SG route with a one tonne axleload increase in 30 odd years.

We have paid top dollar for an inferior outcome that could have been so much better for little more in capital cost had the job been run honestly and competently.

Putting on train proof jacket, safety boots and crash hat and hiding in the humpy down the yard......
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
My two bob's worth in bold:

I have been a critic of this project of late as I am sure you all know but with the loops I think we just have to wait and see what happens down the track.

We have paid top dollar for an inferior outcome that could have been so much better for little more in capital cost had the job been run honestly and competently.

Putting on train proof jacket, safety boots and crash hat and hiding in the humpy down the yard......
YM-Mundrabilla
Well, I only just slipped into the world with decimal currency, so here's my 20 cents worth.............again

I seem to keep playing the devil's advocate, for some reason and just clear something up, won't read the Age.

YM critical of this project Shocked really, had't notice............much !!!!!!!!

As for loading of wagons, it would depend on what your loading, as in wheat is quite heavy, but other cereals aren't, from what I remember at Dimboola, some wagons would have certainly been over loaded, as in weight, but as long as the whole train fitted the load to be shifted, every thing averaged out, if you can under stand, that. So I would say no problem, fitting the extra volume, fingers crossed. If you wanted to get technical and knew the cubic volume of the wagon and googled the same per cubic tonne of grain, it could be worked out by james, I would think.

A few of your other points, regarding longer consist's and loops, axle load, plenty of that should have happened decades ago, if anybody at the top was serious about transportation of goods, by rail and as such, we can still see, no one is serious still, about developing rail, as a prime mover of anything.

I wouldn't think anything you have identified would be specific to Victoria, the wheels have fallen of the rail system, Australia wide, in the rural sector. The items you mention, as far as I can remember, weren't within the scope of the project.

Paying top $$$$$$$$$$ and getting ripped off, for the product, seems to be par for the course, these days.

I don't think you need a suit of armor on, just to voice your opinion, stroll out in ya footy shorts, thongs and singlet.   Razz

BigShunter.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
'I don't think you need a suit of armor on, just to voice your opinion, stroll out in ya footy shorts, thongs and singlet.   https://www.railpage.com.au/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif'

I have no desire to become a Brass Monkey thank you.Smile
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Maybe so, 40 was the BG standard upon which standardisation has not improved. Do we know (ie is there any confirmation) that the old hoppers still largely in use have the cubic volume available to carry the extra grain required to take advantage of the additional axleload now theoretically possible? Will longer grain trains never be contemplated? Think single tip truck of grain compared with B double of grain!

We have paid top dollar for an inferior outcome that could have been so much better for little more in capital cost had the job been run honestly and competently.

Putting on train proof jacket, safety boots and crash hat and hiding in the humpy down the yard......
YM-Mundrabilla
On capacity of hoppers I am not sure about the PN hoppers but from what I can gather the Cargill rake(s) and some of the SSR hoppers (the type built in China by QRRS to their domestic C-35 basic design) are built for 23TAL. The wagon itself is 24T and the max load is 68T for a total of 92T.

So at 21TAL you can deduct 8T and at 19TAL you can deduct another 8T so on a 19TAL line each hopper is operated at 16 ton under capacity. So the change from 19 to 21TAL on a 40 wagon rake gives an extra 320 tons of grain transported or over 5 hoppers worth of extra product on the same train.

As for top dollar I think as is normal in this country the problem is that we haven't paid top dollar, we contracted the lowest bidder. It has been suggested previously that some of the big players in the Aus rail sector didn't bother bidding because they didn't think the job could be done properly within the project budget.

Putting on the PJs and bed socks and hiding under the quilt....... without the laptop.......

BG
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Re loop length, what is the maximum length a train can be to unload at Portland, Geelong and Appleton?
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
BG, tacked up there with your hot water bottle, your sort of half way there, in the calculations. As a rule of thumb, in the old school dept, wheat weighs in at 12 bags to the tonne, Triticale / Barley 15, and Oats 18 and have no idea about Canola, which is also a popular commodity. So the cubic volume of wheat is far less than the cubic volume of Oats, so if you filled a wagon to the top with wheat she might weigh in at 100 tonne, the same volume of Oats might be 80 tonne, if that makes some sort of sense.

Then there is Faba beans, Lupins,Peas, Chick peas, Lentils and blaaa, all would be different weights * volume.

james, Portland, the train has to be split up, so it probably doesn't matter, I seem to recall perhaps Carnot, years ago said they were running a 70 wagon consist from Murtoa to Portland, for what ever reason.

Geelong has a balloon loop so probably doesn't matter, as well and no idea ( no eye deer ) about Appleton.

BigShunter.
  K-Class Chief Train Controller

Location: Melbourne
Appleton Dock has a 550m and a 580m road leading into the unloading shed. the unloading road is 357m long with an additional 90m dead end shunt. So any train over about 300m long needs to be split. see diagram attached.
http://www.signaldiagramsandphotos.com/mywebpages/vr/Metropolitan/97'2010.pdf

Geelong balloon loop is about 2300m around as measured on Google earth but the limiting length is the length from the discharge shed back to the points to the main line which is about 1000m.

At Portland the length from the unloader to the end of the dead end siding is about 350m. From the unloading shed back to the first level crossing within the port area is 263m with another 207m back to the beginning of the grain sidings. So any train over 350m long will need to be split.
http://www.signaldiagramsandphotos.com/mywebpages/vr/Western_and_South_Western/16'2007.htm

Overall grain handling in Victoria is still very inefficient. Compare this with the outloader built in Adelaide about 15 years ago that is 2000m from the mainline points to the discharge shed and then another 1550m back to the diverging point of the balloon loop. So you could unload a 2000m long train if required; even though in practice most if not all trains that use the facility are under 1000m long.

Matt
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
BG, tacked up there with your hot water bottle, your sort of half way there, in the calculations. As a rule of thumb, in the old school dept, wheat weighs in at 12 bags to the tonne, Triticale / Barley 15, and Oats 18 and have no idea about Canola, which is also a popular commodity. So the cubic volume of wheat is far less than the cubic volume of Oats, so if you filled a wagon to the top with wheat she might weigh in at 100 tonne, the same volume of Oats might be 80 tonne, if that makes some sort of sense.

Then there is Faba beans, Lupins,Peas, Chick peas, Lentils and blaaa, all would be different weights * volume.

BigShunter.
BigShunter
Thanks Shunter, I should have been more clear, I was talking about wheat which is around .750 tons per cubic metre. Oats are far lighter at .450 but Maize (not applicable to Vic / NSW rail?), Soybeans, Linseed, Sorghum and Lupins are right up there around .72 / .73. Rapeseed (Canola, wonder why they changed the name of that?!?!) is around .675.

A C-35 92 hopper has a nominal capacity of 86.5 Cubes*. So a fully loaded 92 would theoretically be good for around 65 tons of wheat fully loaded, add in the 24.5 Ton for the wagon and you are at 90 Ton approx, over the 21TAL but under 23.

The C-35 100 type has a nominal capacity of 98 Cubic Metres which takes it up close to 25TAL for wheat and similar.

Happy to be corrected on any of the above, just a quick back of the envelope job.

BG

* Remember folks, there's no substitute for cubes! Applies just as much to grain hoppers as it does to V8s!
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Thanks @Kclass for the info above

Something else that needs to be 'standardised then is the port access lengths and therefore loop lengths required.   So much variation....
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Thanks @Kclass for the info above

Something else that needs to be 'standardised then is the port access lengths and therefore loop lengths required.   So much variation....
james.au
Speaking of variation, I know you are a dab hand at this grain stuff James (Angle of Repose anyone?), I have read different figures for converting Cubic size of agricultural products to weight, does bulk handling make a difference due to compaction of product in bulk storage?

I used .750 TpM3 above but have seen figures up to .82 and this would make quite a difference to train loading

BG
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

~10% variation in density seems more than plausible/statistically reasonable. Remember we are talking about a natural product here.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

.............................................

Isn't it set up that the longer train must take the loop in one direction whether there is a cross or not? Increased track wear, rolling stock wear, lost running time!

...........................................................
YM-Mundrabilla

Offset perhaps by the trailable points setup saving the cost of remote-controlled loops or both trains having to stop to manually enter and exit the loop.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
~10% variation in density seems more than plausible/statistically reasonable. Remember we are talking about a natural product here.
potatoinmymouth
Yep about right, potatoman, all grains vary somewhat in weight, according to the season, as do their nutrients, for the want of a better word, say wheat, if it's been a great season, you plenty of quantity but the protein levels may be down on average, other side of the coin, if it's been a lean year, less volume but protein levels will be up. It's the protein, as well as a few other bits, the they calculate, what grade of wheat, it's going to fit into. So in short, any grade of wheat or similar will have an average weight and depending on the season, will weigh marginally heavier or lighter.

And BG, grain certainly will compact, if you shake it around a bit, say a truck is being filled in the paddock, from a field bin or header, truck is full, they go for a bit of a drive around the paddock, all the grain settles, a bit, they pull in under the auger and top her up again and fit another couple of tonne on, then roll up at the grain site over loaded. Ha Ha not always
A train would be the same, fill her ( grain hoppers / wagon ) up at Sea Lake and arrive at Geelong and she would look only half full. ish

BigShunter.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
@brentongoulding  yes wheat (and all grains)can have different density. This is measured at silos as the test weight. And is usually kg/L. Normal range is around the 0.75-0.80. I have seen up to 0.85 which visibly takes up less of a truck than 0.75.  It can go low especially when it is weather damaged and I think 0.68 is the lowest test weight before it is rejected as milling grade and is classifed as feed.  I am not up to date with the grain specs though so could be slightly out.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Thanks @Kclass for the info above

Something else that needs to be 'standardised then is the port access lengths and therefore loop lengths required.   So much variation....
james.au
This would be the sort of investment that the government would be wanting to see from the port operators as outlined in the business case. Portland in particular, I am not sure about being able to fit a balloon loop in there but they have a big opportunity to grab a chunk of the grain export business from the Yelta, Manang and Sea Lake lines if they want it.

BG
  Jack Le Lievre Assistant Commissioner

Location: Moolap Station, Vic
This would be the sort of investment that the government would be wanting to see from the port operators as outlined in the business case. Portland in particular, I am not sure about being able to fit a balloon loop in there but they have a big opportunity to grab a chunk of the grain export business from the Yelta, Manang and Sea Lake lines if they want it.

BG
BrentonGolding
The Port of Portland can't fit/return a Balloon Loop, as the land was sold off during the Kennet years.

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