Baxter extension

 
  John.Z Train Controller

the problem being JZ is that there is nothing simple about Baxter .

The current price tag just to get to Baxter, and not beyond, is half a BILLION dollars.
Just think about that. It's about 25 new X'trapolis 6 set trains.
No brainer which is going to be more usefull.

Taking the option of sparks all the way to Hasting or Stoney, and double it, we are getting into terrifying expense.

The battery back-up for whole of South Australia came to $100 million. OK "whole" is an exaggeration , but it is huge.

Back of envelope calculation for battery back-up on about 10 train sets would be $20 - $40 million.
That's still over the odds for Stoney Point. Never get that money back, but a lot more palatable.

cheers
John
justarider
Where are you getting $60m/km for just stringing wires from? (single track catenary) That's all I'm suggesting...

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  justarider Locomotive Driver

JZ

If the work undertaken is just a simple electrify of the existing line, then I'm all for it. And that means do NO more. That has been my contention through this thread.

BUT the simple/less expensive option is not gunna happen.

Once "electrify" is grasped as the solution, then all the other add ons get assumed as "must also have" (big monster stable, grade separate, new stations, double track,  pretty bike paths).
You name it, somebody wants it , with an UNcompromising passion.

My odd ball suggestion is to break that cycle.
Doing something the same way as we have done for 100 years, is just writing the  report recommendations to "do nothing" or "spend a billion". Nothng else enters tiny consultants brain.

PS: battery powered train has already been done. Check out byronbaytrain.com.au  Small scale but does prove the concept.

cheers
John
  62440 Deputy Commissioner


The battery back-up for whole of South Australia came to $100 million. OK "whole" is an exaggeration , but it is huge.
cheers
John
justaride
The big battery does not supply the whole state, it is mainly for current balancing as wind and solar are extreme variables. It would barely feed a small town on its own.
  justarider Locomotive Driver

Hi 62440

The point of my post was not really about how much the SA battery can supply,

but OK I'll bite.

Although the stated aim of the Horndale Power Reserve ( the correct name) was in part to cover the low tines for wind/solar it has already done much much more.

In November/December ( even before the official switch on), the Loy Yang A unit (stable coal NOT) tripped at least 5 times.
This sent the entire South East Australia into a tail spin (frequency drop).
https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-big-battery-outsmarts-lumbering-coal-units-after-loy-yang-trips-70003/

For about 5 seconds, the battery facility held NSW, VIC, SA together, until the contracted Gladstone(QLD) coal generator could fire up and get the network back to normal.  Not a bad effort for "a small town on its own".  And that was only about 7% of it's potential output.
NB "seconds" doesn't sound much, but it is a big deal in the elctricity market

The point about a battery powered train is how many of those refrigerator sized power packs would you need to power an X'trapolis for the round trip Frankston to Stoney Point. Maybe 6 that's a doddle - 60 forget it.

Never know until the maths is done - any elec engineers out there with the base info of a train power consumption?
1 Tesla power pack = 210 kWh, AC .

cheers
John
  jb17kx Assistant Commissioner

Location: Glasgow
...
BATTERIES
...
X'trapolis arriving at Frankston from Flinders St. Switch to Battery back up.  Drop the pantegraph (sp).
Off we go to Stoney (sp) Point. The technology is not that hard. South Australia just did a whole state grid. Surely one train is no harder. For develope (sp) of the idea, take out 1/2 seats of X'trapolis Motor car, and wheel in some Tesla power walls and smart switches. Later on can develope (sp) a more elegant design.
...
As for Baxter stable (sp) yard, where is the rule that a train has to get there under its own power. For those without a battery, use a tug. Crazy idea i know. But if VR engineers give the usual "can't be done", then ask Elon Musk.  His team are up for 100 day challenges. PS: if this all sounds a bit of over the top new stuff for insignificant little Stoney (sp) Point,  think potential. Wyndam (sp) Vale, Melton, MARL.
justarider

This idea of "bi-mode" trains is not actually a new concept - ÖBB has an order with Bombardier for several-hundred Talent 3 battery EMUs scheduled to enter service from next year, as do Auckland with units from CAF, and there are several experimental units in use in Japan and the UK.

Similarly electro-diesel units are not new either; the Intercity Express Programme in the UK includes an entire class of Hitachi units that draw from the wires and can then switch over to diesel power.

However I don't see them as useful solutions to the Stony Point situation, primarily because introducing specialised subfleets to a metro environment is the kiss of death to efficiency and flexibility.

Not to mention the fact that even while hack-job modifications like gutting half an X'Trap's M car are cheaper than new stock or outright electrification, they also do the least towards actually making lasting improvements.
  justarider Locomotive Driver

...

BATTERIES

...

X'trapolis arriving at Frankston from Flinders St. Switch to Battery back up.  Drop the pantegraph (sp).

Off we go to Stoney (sp) Point. The technology is not that hard. South Australia just did a whole state grid. Surely one train is no harder. For develope (sp) of the idea, take out 1/2 seats of X'trapolis Motor car, and wheel in some Tesla power walls and smart switches. Later on can develope (sp) a more elegant design.

...

As for Baxter stable (sp) yard, where is the rule that a train has to get there under its own power. For those without a battery, use a tug. Crazy idea i know. But if VR engineers give the usual "can't be done", then ask Elon Musk.  His team are up for 100 day challenges. PS: if this all sounds a bit of over the top new stuff for insignificant little Stoney (sp) Point,  think potential. Wyndam (sp) Vale, Melton, MARL.
justarider
This idea of "bi-mode" trains is not actually a new concept - ÖBB has an order with Bombardier for several-hundred Talent 3 battery EMUs scheduled to enter service from next year, as do Auckland with units from CAF, and there are several experimental units in use in Japan and the UK.

Similarly electro-diesel units are not new either; the Intercity Express Programme in the UK includes an entire class of Hitachi units that draw from the wires and can then switch over to diesel power.

However I don't see them as useful solutions to the Stony Point situation, primarily because introducing specialised subfleets to a metro environment is the kiss of death to efficiency and flexibility.

Not to mention the fact that even while hack-job modifications like gutting half an X'Trap's M car are cheaper than new stock or outright electrification, they also do the least towards actually making lasting improvements.
jb17kx


Thanks JB,
a careful examination of a thought bubble that admittedly is on the crazy side of stupid.

Don't you like my spelling? Just for you I've swapped to PC.
Damned spell check on Android creates so much gobble-d-gook, that continual fixing misses the important stuff.

"hack job modification.." fair cop. Very accurate, but that is how most prototypes of anything start out.
In any event, not needed, as you point out that real work on the concept is underway.

It's interesting to note that the technology for battery train exists with our delivery partner for regional trains (Bombardier), yet the need for a solution is with our Metro partner (Alstom). Do they ever co-operate? Something we supposedly pay our pollys to sort out.
Maybe a 4 week study tour to Austria and Germany, by 2 Ministers + 10 advisers + 1(maybe) train expert.

"specialised subfleet .... kiss of death" is what we sort of have now with the Stony Point line.
Nothing unusual for Victorian Railways and we manage to stumble through somehow.
IF (very big IF) the battery concept gets a guernsey , then the last line on my suggestion brings "subfleet" into the mainstream category.

How many Metro lines run out of sparks well before their current logical end point?
Melton/Bacchus Marsh? Wyndham Vale? Geelong? Wallan? Drouin/Warragul? Woodend? Stony Point?
All of them ridiculously expensive to electrify, and decades away. Modern rolling stock is elsewhere showing a workable alternative.

cheers
John

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