Baxter extension

 
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

the problem being JZ is that there is nothing simple about Baxter .

The current price tag just to get to Baxter, and not beyond, is half a BILLION dollars.
Just think about that. It's about 25 new X'trapolis 6 set trains.
No brainer which is going to be more usefull.

Taking the option of sparks all the way to Hasting or Stoney, and double it, we are getting into terrifying expense.

The battery back-up for whole of South Australia came to $100 million. OK "whole" is an exaggeration , but it is huge.

Back of envelope calculation for battery back-up on about 10 train sets would be $20 - $40 million.
That's still over the odds for Stoney Point. Never get that money back, but a lot more palatable.

cheers
John
justarider
Where are you getting $60m/km for just stringing wires from? (single track catenary) That's all I'm suggesting...

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  justarider Chief Train Controller

JZ

If the work undertaken is just a simple electrify of the existing line, then I'm all for it. And that means do NO more. That has been my contention through this thread.

BUT the simple/less expensive option is not gunna happen.

Once "electrify" is grasped as the solution, then all the other add ons get assumed as "must also have" (big monster stable, grade separate, new stations, double track,  pretty bike paths).
You name it, somebody wants it , with an UNcompromising passion.

My odd ball suggestion is to break that cycle.
Doing something the same way as we have done for 100 years, is just writing the  report recommendations to "do nothing" or "spend a billion". Nothng else enters tiny consultants brain.

PS: battery powered train has already been done. Check out byronbaytrain.com.au  Small scale but does prove the concept.

cheers
John
  62440 Deputy Commissioner


The battery back-up for whole of South Australia came to $100 million. OK "whole" is an exaggeration , but it is huge.
cheers
John
justaride
The big battery does not supply the whole state, it is mainly for current balancing as wind and solar are extreme variables. It would barely feed a small town on its own.
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Hi 62440

The point of my post was not really about how much the SA battery can supply,

but OK I'll bite.

Although the stated aim of the Horndale Power Reserve ( the correct name) was in part to cover the low tines for wind/solar it has already done much much more.

In November/December ( even before the official switch on), the Loy Yang A unit (stable coal NOT) tripped at least 5 times.
This sent the entire South East Australia into a tail spin (frequency drop).
https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-big-battery-outsmarts-lumbering-coal-units-after-loy-yang-trips-70003/

For about 5 seconds, the battery facility held NSW, VIC, SA together, until the contracted Gladstone(QLD) coal generator could fire up and get the network back to normal.  Not a bad effort for "a small town on its own".  And that was only about 7% of it's potential output.
NB "seconds" doesn't sound much, but it is a big deal in the elctricity market

The point about a battery powered train is how many of those refrigerator sized power packs would you need to power an X'trapolis for the round trip Frankston to Stoney Point. Maybe 6 that's a doddle - 60 forget it.

Never know until the maths is done - any elec engineers out there with the base info of a train power consumption?
1 Tesla power pack = 210 kWh, AC .

cheers
John
  XAM2175 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Glasgow
...
BATTERIES
...
X'trapolis arriving at Frankston from Flinders St. Switch to Battery back up.  Drop the pantegraph (sp).
Off we go to Stoney (sp) Point. The technology is not that hard. South Australia just did a whole state grid. Surely one train is no harder. For develope (sp) of the idea, take out 1/2 seats of X'trapolis Motor car, and wheel in some Tesla power walls and smart switches. Later on can develope (sp) a more elegant design.
...
As for Baxter stable (sp) yard, where is the rule that a train has to get there under its own power. For those without a battery, use a tug. Crazy idea i know. But if VR engineers give the usual "can't be done", then ask Elon Musk.  His team are up for 100 day challenges. PS: if this all sounds a bit of over the top new stuff for insignificant little Stoney (sp) Point,  think potential. Wyndam (sp) Vale, Melton, MARL.
justarider

This idea of "bi-mode" trains is not actually a new concept - ÖBB has an order with Bombardier for several-hundred Talent 3 battery EMUs scheduled to enter service from next year, as do Auckland with units from CAF, and there are several experimental units in use in Japan and the UK.

Similarly electro-diesel units are not new either; the Intercity Express Programme in the UK includes an entire class of Hitachi units that draw from the wires and can then switch over to diesel power.

However I don't see them as useful solutions to the Stony Point situation, primarily because introducing specialised subfleets to a metro environment is the kiss of death to efficiency and flexibility.

Not to mention the fact that even while hack-job modifications like gutting half an X'Trap's M car are cheaper than new stock or outright electrification, they also do the least towards actually making lasting improvements.
  justarider Chief Train Controller

...

BATTERIES

...

X'trapolis arriving at Frankston from Flinders St. Switch to Battery back up.  Drop the pantegraph (sp).

Off we go to Stoney (sp) Point. The technology is not that hard. South Australia just did a whole state grid. Surely one train is no harder. For develope (sp) of the idea, take out 1/2 seats of X'trapolis Motor car, and wheel in some Tesla power walls and smart switches. Later on can develope (sp) a more elegant design.

...

As for Baxter stable (sp) yard, where is the rule that a train has to get there under its own power. For those without a battery, use a tug. Crazy idea i know. But if VR engineers give the usual "can't be done", then ask Elon Musk.  His team are up for 100 day challenges. PS: if this all sounds a bit of over the top new stuff for insignificant little Stoney (sp) Point,  think potential. Wyndam (sp) Vale, Melton, MARL.
justarider
This idea of "bi-mode" trains is not actually a new concept - ÖBB has an order with Bombardier for several-hundred Talent 3 battery EMUs scheduled to enter service from next year, as do Auckland with units from CAF, and there are several experimental units in use in Japan and the UK.

Similarly electro-diesel units are not new either; the Intercity Express Programme in the UK includes an entire class of Hitachi units that draw from the wires and can then switch over to diesel power.

However I don't see them as useful solutions to the Stony Point situation, primarily because introducing specialised subfleets to a metro environment is the kiss of death to efficiency and flexibility.

Not to mention the fact that even while hack-job modifications like gutting half an X'Trap's M car are cheaper than new stock or outright electrification, they also do the least towards actually making lasting improvements.
jb17kx


Thanks JB,
a careful examination of a thought bubble that admittedly is on the crazy side of stupid.

Don't you like my spelling? Just for you I've swapped to PC.
Damned spell check on Android creates so much gobble-d-gook, that continual fixing misses the important stuff.

"hack job modification.." fair cop. Very accurate, but that is how most prototypes of anything start out.
In any event, not needed, as you point out that real work on the concept is underway.

It's interesting to note that the technology for battery train exists with our delivery partner for regional trains (Bombardier), yet the need for a solution is with our Metro partner (Alstom). Do they ever co-operate? Something we supposedly pay our pollys to sort out.
Maybe a 4 week study tour to Austria and Germany, by 2 Ministers + 10 advisers + 1(maybe) train expert.

"specialised subfleet .... kiss of death" is what we sort of have now with the Stony Point line.
Nothing unusual for Victorian Railways and we manage to stumble through somehow.
IF (very big IF) the battery concept gets a guernsey , then the last line on my suggestion brings "subfleet" into the mainstream category.

How many Metro lines run out of sparks well before their current logical end point?
Melton/Bacchus Marsh? Wyndham Vale? Geelong? Wallan? Drouin/Warragul? Woodend? Stony Point?
All of them ridiculously expensive to electrify, and decades away. Modern rolling stock is elsewhere showing a workable alternative.

cheers
John
  justarider Chief Train Controller

And more railway companies in the real world look for newer innovative ways.
https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/battery-electric-multipleunit-study

The technology exists to extend the boundaries of Metro without the ridiculous expense of electrifying the line.

cheers
John
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

We have a diesel operation isolated from the rest of the system running at a frequency which makes the Warnambool line look like the Jubilee line (in London).

We know that as long as Long Island Steel remains, the track up to Hastings will be in good working condition.

If we acknowledge that the status quo isn't what we want, then the obvious thing to do is to extend the Metro electric service to at least Hastings (where we know the track will be used), if not Stony Point.

To replace an isolated low frequency diesel service with an isolated low frequency battery operated service charged by coal power does nothing to improve the frequency of the service, the usefulness of the service (no change at Frankston), nor the viability of the service.

Once electrified, the cost of extending Frankston trains is minimal (Metro has a huge issue with the utilisation of its workforce, with a cap of 1 trip per day per line IIRC).

I really don't see the point of replacing the engine on the sprinter. It will cost big $$$, and not address any of the fundamental flaws of the service.
  justarider Chief Train Controller

@John.Z we keep going around in the same circle.

The point of this thread is increasing the service to Baxter and beyond - Hastings at least, might as well do Stony.

Replacing like for like - a shuttle DMU vs a shuttle battery EMU, is not what I suggested.

A battery enabled metro, can run the full distance to Melbourne. Eg every third/whatever Frankston service runs all the way Melbourne to Stony.
It uses the time under sparks for recharge.
A big improve to the service, no train change-over, and a modest cost compared to electrify the line. Normal Frankston pax wouldn't know any difference.

Battery has been built into EMU. No conceptual difference for X'trap.

As I wrote previously, can stretch the concept to other lines that are desperately needing electric, but the convert money is not there.
eg make Melton to Stony a combined route.

cheers
John
  Rodo Chief Commissioner

Location: Southern Riverina
A cross platform transfer at Baxter with an hourly  railcar serving a line that does not have a much greater population than Lilydale-Healesville.
I would say that is plenty, electric overhead to Mornington DOES appear to make sense, though. A much bigger dense population to service there with through trains.
.
  justarider Chief Train Controller

A cross platform transfer at Baxter with an hourly  railcar serving a line that does not have a much greater population than Lilydale-Healesville.
I would say that is plenty, electric overhead to Mornington DOES appear to make sense, though. A much bigger dense population to service there with through trains.
.
Rodo
2016 census  (just ask google)
Liliydale 16,000** + WHY ??  Healesville  6,000  + coldstream 2,000 + yarra glen 3,000 = 27,000
mornington 24,000 + mt eliza 18,000 = 42,000
tyabb 3,000 + somerville  11,000** + hastings 10,000 = 24,000

** and GROWING

All much of a muchness. They equally deserve some service, so why service any of them?
OH yeah that right, there already is a working line to Stony Point.
Lilydale is already served 5-15 minute @ peak.
The others need a complete rebuild.

If I lived in Hastings I wouldn't bother with the existing crap (100 minute wait) service either.
Drive to Frankston or Lynbrook connection is a lot quicker than waiting.
Would a 30 minute train wait change my mind, sure!

We could play my town deserves more than your town all day long. Hundreds of rural towns in VIC that miss out.
By your reasoning, don't need Belgrave it's even smaller (4,000)

Re-opening long lost lines worked fine for Mernda**, but I don't hear much noise about Mornington in the last 37 years.

cheers
John
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

A cross platform transfer at Baxter with an hourly  railcar serving a line that does not have a much greater population than Lilydale-Healesville.
I would say that is plenty, electric overhead to Mornington DOES appear to make sense, though. A much bigger dense population to service there with through trains.
.
2016 census  (just ask google)
Liliydale 16,000** + WHY ??  Healesville  6,000  + coldstream 2,000 + yarra glen 3,000 = 27,000
mornington 24,000 + mt eliza 18,000 = 42,000
tyabb 3,000 + somerville  11,000** + hastings 10,000 = 24,000

** and GROWING
justarider
What does WHY signify?
  justarider Chief Train Controller

A cross platform transfer at Baxter with an hourly  railcar serving a line that does not have a much greater population than Lilydale-Healesville.
I would say that is plenty, electric overhead to Mornington DOES appear to make sense, though. A much bigger dense population to service there with through trains.
.
2016 census  (just ask google)
Liliydale 16,000** + WHY ??  Healesville  6,000  + coldstream 2,000 + yarra glen 3,000 = 27,000
mornington 24,000 + mt eliza 18,000 = 42,000
tyabb 3,000 + somerville  11,000** + hastings 10,000 = 24,000

** and GROWING
What does WHY signify?
duttonbay
@rodo did make a comparison between the size of an existing line (Stony Point) to an NON existing Lilydale-Healesvile.

So WHY count after Lilydale ?  Maybe the outer towns are a catchment for the Lilydale train, maybe not.

I suspect not. Once already in the car, inclination is to stay that way passing Lilydale.
Suspect the same for anybody on the Peninsula w.r.t Mornington.

cheers
John
  Richard stroker Station Staff

The difference between lilydale- Healesville line and Baxter - stony point line is the two heavily loaded bluescope steel trains that travel daily to Hastings . Someone pays to use the line to the bluescope plant .
  kitchgp Assistant Commissioner

Drifting slightly, however:
Mount Evelyn 9500 + Wandin 3000 + Seville 2000 + Woori Yallock 3000 + Launching Place 2000 + Yarra Junction 2500 + Warburton 2000 = 24,000 (v Healesville line’s 11,000)

although lose all, or part of a good and successful rail trail.

The Route 683 bus seems more than adequate.
  kitchgp Assistant Commissioner

2016 census  (just ask google)
Liliydale 16,000** + WHY ??  Healesville  6,000  + coldstream 2,000 + yarra glen 3,000 = 27,000
mornington 24,000 + mt eliza 18,000 = 42,000
tyabb 3,000 + somerville  11,000** + hastings 10,000 = 24,000

** and GROWING

...............................................................
justarider

The Mornington line doesn't go through Mount Eliza.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Hi 62440

The point of my post was not really about how much the SA battery can supply,

but OK I'll bite.

Although the stated aim of the Horndale Power Reserve ( the correct name) was in part to cover the low tines for wind/solar it has already done much much more.

In November/December ( even before the official switch on), the Loy Yang A unit (stable coal NOT) tripped at least 5 times.
This sent the entire South East Australia into a tail spin (frequency drop).
https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-big-battery-outsmarts-lumbering-coal-units-after-loy-yang-trips-70003/

For about 5 seconds, the battery facility held NSW, VIC, SA together, until the contracted Gladstone(QLD) coal generator could fire up and get the network back to normal.  Not a bad effort for "a small town on its own".  And that was only about 7% of it's potential output.
NB "seconds" doesn't sound much, but it is a big deal in the elctricity market

The point about a battery powered train is how many of those refrigerator sized power packs would you need to power an X'trapolis for the round trip Frankston to Stoney Point. Maybe 6 that's a doddle - 60 forget it.

Never know until the maths is done - any elec engineers out there with the base info of a train power consumption?
1 Tesla power pack = 210 kWh, AC .

cheers
John
justarider
The battery packs mentioned will be using lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide cells, I believe the prefered option would be Lithium Iron Phospate cells (LiFePO4), these have a far longer life under frequent high discharge conditions as would be required for a battery powered Stony point service. One would require at least 10 LiFePO4 packs, 600 x 600 x 1800mm (600V 100AH each) for each motor car. These batteries would supply 1200 volts at 300AH (around 2000bhp for 15 minutes) which would probably be adequate for a Frankston to Stony Point service. Note: at the moment the above is only an educated guess. One would need to do a simulation of the line of the line to get accurate data, a GREAT deal depends on what speed one runs the line at.

woodford
  justarider Chief Train Controller

2016 census  (just ask google)
mornington 24,000 + mt eliza 18,000 = 42,000
tyabb 3,000 + somerville  11,000** + hastings 10,000 = 24,000

** and GROWING

...............................................................

The Mornington line doesn't go through Mount Eliza.
kitchgp
There are some that say south of the Nepean highway is not really Mt Eliza. Not so the many people that live in the new estates.
The station is where the line crosses Moorooduc Hwy and is currently used by the Preservation Society.

cheere
John
  kitchgp Assistant Commissioner

Renaming Moorooduc station doesn't put the vast majority of the 18,000 Mount Elizans any closer. Baxter and stations north would probably be just as close for most.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Proof that stony point shan't be mothballed
  thekingoffoxes Chief Train Controller

While chasing the steam train today i did notice the level crossing at Mooradoo has been rebuilt, so I don't think they plan to close the line south of Hastings just yet!
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
While chasing the steam train today i did notice the level crossing at Mooradoo has been rebuilt, so I don't think they plan to close the line south of Hastings just yet!
thekingoffoxes
get to the point?
  thekingoffoxes Chief Train Controller

While chasing the steam train today i did notice the level crossing at Mooradoo has been rebuilt, so I don't think they plan to close the line south of Hastings just yet!
get to the point?
Dangersdan707
Yes, track work appears to be in good condition the whole way with fresh ballast and concrete sleepers in a number of sections.
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Renaming Moorooduc station doesn't put the vast majority of the 18,000 Mount Elizans any closer. Baxter and stations north would probably be just as close for most.
kitchgp
equally, a large proportion of Morningtonians would find Moorooduc (or Mt Eliza) Station more accessible than the Mornington town centre.

What that means I have no idea, just thought I'd throw it in.

I suppose that the catchment for a re-opened Mornington line is unknown, and would need a full(expensive) survey to override the decision to close in 1981.

IF there was as much shouting about it, as was the case at Mernda, then might be worth a look.
Seems the only interest is the Preservation Society in preserving partially for tourists.
Otherwise Mornington line is just another pointless line of discussion.

Now back to the Stony Point line beyond Baxter which is of some real interest.

cheers
John
  justarider Chief Train Controller

While chasing the steam train today i did notice the level crossing at Mooradoo has been rebuilt, so I don't think they plan to close the line south of Hastings just yet!
thekingoffoxes
while waiting endlessly for train after footy, I thought that Metro had dragged out some really old rolling stock to get me home.

Alas, no. Just keep waiting for the boring Xtrap that goes somewhere else.

PS: I would hope the line continues to be maintained to a high level of safety.
Even empty trains can crush cars that have not been protected.

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