Suburban Rail Loop (Election promise)

 
  mm42 Chief Train Controller

One of the keys to a successful Suburban Rail Loop will be closely spaced stations in the few areas where areas can be developed at much higher density, but high speeds between these areas. For example, the Monash Clayton area has a commercial office/industrial area between the university and the Monash Freeway, which could accept much higher height limits without NIMBY opposition. This "developable area" stretches 2.5 km north from the current campus bus interchange, and would need perhaps 3 stations so the developable area is within a 400 m walk from the nearest station entrance.

Another key is getting the cost of tunnelling down. While MM1 is costing about $1b per kilometer, Perth is currently building an underground railway for $200 m per kilometer, at much lower cost because it is being built beneath low-density suburbs and the airport. The 3 stations on this line are simple box structures built without needing to maintain operating roadways above, which means construction cranes can be used to lower costs. One station will be beneath a roadway, but the road is diverted during construction. Melbourne Central was built this way, with Latrobe St diverted south into where the Melbourne Central shopping centre has since been built.

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  northbritish Chief Train Controller

Spudchomper. Yes these projects are good, trains that are incompatible with the rest of the network, a rail tunnel that misses a major interchange point, the others are good but not enough. What I am referring to is the plethora of “little ticket” projects that would improve the system, for example extending the East Malvern Darling Road tram to East Malvern station making the line double ended.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

One of the keys to a successful Suburban Rail Loop will be closely spaced stations in the few areas where areas can be developed at much higher density, but high speeds between these areas. For example, the Monash Clayton area has a commercial office/industrial area between the university and the Monash Freeway, which could accept much higher height limits without NIMBY opposition. This "developable area" stretches 2.5 km north from the current campus bus interchange, and would need perhaps 3 stations so the developable area is within a 400 m walk from the nearest station entrance.
mm42

Disagree. Closely spaced stations are incompatible with the rapid transit goals of the SRL. Bus networks will have to fill in the gaps.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
One of the keys to a successful Suburban Rail Loop will be closely spaced stations in the few areas where areas can be developed at much higher density, but high speeds between these areas. For example, the Monash Clayton area has a commercial office/industrial area between the university and the Monash Freeway, which could accept much higher height limits without NIMBY opposition. This "developable area" stretches 2.5 km north from the current campus bus interchange, and would need perhaps 3 stations so the developable area is within a 400 m walk from the nearest station entrance.

Disagree. Closely spaced stations are incompatible with the rapid transit goals of the SRL. Bus networks will have to fill in the gaps.
potatoinmymouth
Agreed, closely spaced stations are a relic of a bygone era when everyone walked to the nearest station. The advent of the motor car removed the need for this style of service which is slow in both speed and time.

The future is rapid rail links with stations spaced further apart and other modes operating as feeders into the network.

The game changer will be self driving EVs which you will not own, instead you will book a pick up at your house or business and it will take you to the nearest station and vice versa. (hence Google maps, Uber etc doing so much work in the self driving EV sector)

The purpose of the heavy rail rapid transit network will then be purely as a congestion buster providing a faster way to move large volumes of pax to the nearest station to their destination. The attraction will be that it is better than sitting in traffic which will otherwise expand as people who are currently unable to drive will hit the roads adding to the already bad traffic as Melbourne adds more and more cars to it's groaning road network.

BG
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
One of the keys to a successful Suburban Rail Loop will be closely spaced stations in the few areas where areas can be developed at much higher density, but high speeds between these areas. For example, the Monash Clayton area has a commercial office/industrial area between the university and the Monash Freeway, which could accept much higher height limits without NIMBY opposition. This "developable area" stretches 2.5 km north from the current campus bus interchange, and would need perhaps 3 stations so the developable area is within a 400 m walk from the nearest station entrance.

Disagree. Closely spaced stations are incompatible with the rapid transit goals of the SRL. Bus networks will have to fill in the gaps.
potatoinmymouth
Sort of agree with mm42.

For Monash Uni, really 3 entrances to the loop are needed.
1. Wellington Rd/Bus Loop
2. Campus Central.
3. Normanby Rd - CSIRO, Residences, Industrial park.

That however doesn't mean 3 stations.
Could do with one central station, and underground pedestrian travellator (400m) for the other entrances.
Pedestrian tunnel is a simple job compared to the complexity of the rest of the project.

Likewise for other proposed stations, multiple entry points for busy areas that may be a considerable distance.
eg Clayton/Monash Hospital, Heidelberg/Austin Hospital,

cheers
John
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
The bus loop at Monash will be slightly less important after the train is running (though it might become more useful in other ways, bringing non-university commuters in to the station). Bus infrastructure is rather easy to move though, so if the railway station had to be on the north side of campus, one of the current parking lots could be converted to build a new bus interchange (though making it slightly less convenient to people and bus routes from the south).
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
The bus loop at Monash will be slightly less important after the train is running (though it might become more useful in other ways, bringing non-university commuters in to the station). Bus infrastructure is rather easy to move though, so if the railway station had to be on the north side of campus, one of the current parking lots could be converted to build a new bus interchange (though making it slightly less convenient to people and bus routes from the south).
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
Why move the bus loop at all?

The SRL will be undergriund wherever the station happens to be. The bus loop area is also a convenient entry point for all the residents on the North side of Wellington Rd. It is a very busy area for many people. not just Uni.

cheers
John
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
Why move the bus loop at all?

The SRL will be undergriund wherever the station happens to be. The bus loop area is also a convenient entry point for all the residents on the North side of Wellington Rd. It is a very busy area for many people. not just Uni.

cheers
John
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/suburban-rail-loop-melbourne-s-west-north-may-get-raw-deal-says-study-20180928-p506nw.html
Good to see this being addressed in the press, though the government response is what I anticipated way back, that the western section is undercooked compared to the rest of the plan.
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/suburban-rail-loop-melbourne-s-west-north-may-get-raw-deal-says-study-20180928-p506nw.html
Good to see this being addressed in the press, though the government response is what I anticipated way back, that the western section is undercooked compared to the rest of the plan.
potatoinmymouth
mmm, now what did they say on 28-08-2018 when SRL was released
Potential other stations in the west — depending on the route selected for connecting key precincts in the west there may be potential for inclusion of additional stations. This would require further consideration in the full business case.
Suburban Rail Loop Strategic Assessment (page25)

The Premier and Minister have been saying that at each press interview on the topic.

PIIMM is one of several to point out the West is undercooked.

now we have a think tank, the opposition, and a reporter who should know better, saying inter alia
"the goverment hasn't planned enough for the west"  
WELL DERRRR

just throwing smeg. There is an election on.

cheers
John
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

I have a strong suspicion that the original idea devised by the Premier’s advisers was to extend the airport line from Southern Cross to Sunshine and the airport and thence to the south-east. There are obvious political imperatives for this version.

At some point when the public service became involved, it was suggested that a loop line - rather than an extended airport link - might be a more appropriate transport outcome. However, the Premier’s office had no political goals to fulfil per se in the west so they didn’t make any demands for station locations.

In the meantime, the state government’s secrecy was so good that an awkward situation unfolded: the federal government tried to wedge them politically with a crude airport link promise. Suddenly, keeping the whole shebang under wraps until the election was no longer viable and some hasty redrawing was done to get the airport link announcement off the ground, while the details were finalised for the SRL. Possibly there was some heat put on DV to cough up something and so there was not enough time to investigate the south-western section thoroughly.

I base this on my educated guesses and the fact that it was claimed the SRL was under development for 12 months; just before the Christmas break last year, Premier Dan told a business breakfast airport rail planning was underway. I suspect this is what he meant - the timeline is right.
  bloodied_wombat Beginner

So, I've gone through and mapped out the potential station sites in the SE and North, as I see the imperatives anyway. Would be interested to hear any feedback?

https://bloodiedwombat.blogspot.com/2018/09/melbourne-suburban-orbital-rail-mapping.html

The West is "undercooked" because it's actually had separate planning done for it already with RRL, and for mine, you actually have a separate service for integrating the west - I'm penning that blog now. So SRL runs Southland-Airport AND Southland-Footscray and integrates with some sort of grand Western Loop (although a possible Metro 2 complicates the picture ...)
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
I have a strong suspicion that the original idea devised by the Premier’s advisers was to extend the airport line from Southern Cross to Sunshine and the airport and thence to the south-east. There are obvious political imperatives for this version.

At some point when the public service became involved, it was suggested that a loop line - rather than an extended airport link - might be a more appropriate transport outcome. However, the Premier’s office had no political goals to fulfil per se in the west so they didn’t make any demands for station locations.

In the meantime, the state government’s secrecy was so good that an awkward situation unfolded: the federal government tried to wedge them politically with a crude airport link promise. Suddenly, keeping the whole shebang under wraps until the election was no longer viable and some hasty redrawing was done to get the airport link announcement off the ground, while the details were finalised for the SRL. Possibly there was some heat put on DV to cough up something and so there was not enough time to investigate the south-western section thoroughly.

I base this on my educated guesses and the fact that it was claimed the SRL was under development for 12 months; just before the Christmas break last year, Premier Dan told a business breakfast airport rail planning was underway. I suspect this is what he meant - the timeline is right.
potatoinmymouth
interesting theory PIMM, only one major hole.

If as you suggest, most of the plan re-shape was done on the fly to do a bit of politicking,
then
a bunch of western suburb nonsense could be thrown in will some veil of pseudo credibility.
Hey I can throw a dart at the board and get get an viable route that could stand scrutiny for about a year.

No one would have noticed much and the political flack (the point of your theory) avoided.

cheers
John
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

The west, once more, has been shafted due to its safe seats and undesirable stigma.

The SRL west of the Airport should really be running to Watergardens, Caroline Springs, before running to Werribee via Tarneit. Otherwise it serves no purpose to those west of the Airport which would be a shame, especially considering the cheap greenfields at the moment in which it could be constructed.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
The west, once more, has been shafted due to its safe seats and undesirable stigma.

The SRL west of the Airport should really be running to Watergardens, Caroline Springs, before running to Werribee via Tarneit. Otherwise it serves no purpose to those west of the Airport which would be a shame, especially considering the cheap greenfields at the moment in which it could be constructed.
John.Z

Are you referring to this article https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/suburban-rail-loop-melbournes-west-north-may-get-raw-deal-says-study

if so then the West gets a connection from Werribee to the RRL delivered which cannot be a bad thing?
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
The west, once more, has been shafted due to its safe seats and undesirable stigma.

The SRL west of the Airport should really be running to Watergardens, Caroline Springs, before running to Werribee via Tarneit. Otherwise it serves no purpose to those west of the Airport which would be a shame, especially considering the cheap greenfields at the moment in which it could be constructed.
John.Z
@John.Z try not to get nickers in a twist.

Where nothing specific has been planned yet, saying that plan is a "shaft" is way too premature. The exact government plan is

"Potential other stations in the west — depending on the route selected for connecting key precincts in the west there may be potential for inclusion of additional stations. This would require further consideration in the full business case.
Suburban Rail Loop Strategic Assessment (page25)

The stations you mention are a fairly logical group to fit within that business case.
The difficult issue is Watergardens instead of Sunshine , a hard sell. Sunshine is a major precinct, WG is not.

The rest of SRL crosses the radial lines about half way out. Watergardens is nearly the end of the road.
Somewhere closer in (St Albans ?) would be more strategic.

cheers
John
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

If the MARL is going via Sunshine, I don't see the need to duplicate. Maybe Watergardens is too far out, but it's a far cry from a Sunshine-Newport-Werribee that is most likely the front runner.
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
If the MARL is going via Sunshine, I don't see the need to duplicate. Maybe Watergardens is too far out, but it's a far cry from a Sunshine-Newport-Werribee that is most likely the front runner.
John.Z
@john.Z  Sunshine is still a front-runner. it is the connect hub to all the regionals.
Should SRL skip Sunshine, then for those passengers that do need to use it, it might force
1. change train at the Airport
2. pay a toll/surcharge for the privilege  (just like a plane change at Sydney Airport)
3. or change train(s) somewhere really inconvenient.

Sunshine-Newport-Werribee : hasn't really got anything going for it, it should be at the back of the pack.
Today I can just as well do Sunshine-Footscray-Newport-Werribee.

also related MARL and the non-decisions  - isn't it always.
Sending Bendigo & Albury via Airport reduces the SRL dependency on Sunshine.
Oh the dreams we have.

EDIT: just answered my own question about regionals.

SRL as you suggested.
Bendigo & Albury - use Airport
Ballarat - use Caroline Springs
Geelong -use Tarneit
MM1/Dandenong/Sunbury - use St Albans
now why are we going to Sunshine again ? not looking so HUBBY anymore.

cheers
John
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

If the MARL is going via Sunshine, I don't see the need to duplicate. Maybe Watergardens is too far out, but it's a far cry from a Sunshine-Newport-Werribee that is most likely the front runner.
@john.Z  Sunshine is still a front-runner. it is the connect hub to all the regionals.
Should SRL skip Sunshine, then for those passengers that do need to use it, it might force
1. change train at the Airport
2. pay a toll/surcharge for the privilege  (just like a plane change at Sydney Airport)
3. or change train(s) somewhere really inconvenient.

Sunshine-Newport-Werribee : hasn't really got anything going for it, it should be at the back of the pack.
Today I can just as well do Sunshine-Footscray-Newport-Werribee.

also related MARL and the non-decisions  - isn't it always.
Sending Bendigo & Albury via Airport reduces the SRL dependency on Sunshine.
Oh the dreams we have.

EDIT: just answered my own question about regionals.

SRL as you suggested.
Bendigo & Albury - use Airport
Ballarat - use Caroline Springs
Geelong -use Tarneit
MM1/Dandenong/Sunbury - use St Albans
now why are we going to Sunshine again ? not looking so HUBBY anymore.

cheers
John
justarider
See, makes so much more sense already. Except some trade union building is being built at Sunshine so they need to increase its value.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Did anyone hear today's news, opposition leader Bill shorten pledges 300 million for Suburban rail loop?
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

Did anyone hear today's news, opposition leader Bill shorten pledges 300 million for Suburban rail loop?
True Believers
From the 9News report, sounds like the SRL would run Werribee to Sunshine via the current RRL allignment. A win for Metro and VLine commuters (more space for Geelong passengers - plus faster trains, as well as a more frequent and adequate service for suburban customers).
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Did anyone hear today's news, opposition leader Bill shorten pledges 300 million for Suburban rail loop?
From the 9News report, sounds like the SRL would run Werribee to Sunshine via the current RRL allignment. A win for Metro and VLine commuters (more space for Geelong passengers - plus faster trains, as well as a more frequent and adequate service for suburban customers).
John.Z
No one actually knows. 9News would have just been trying to fill in the gaps like us. I don't think it's set in stone because of the whole awkward problem of reversing at Sunshine (in a "pure RRL" scenario).
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Did anyone hear today's news, opposition leader Bill shorten pledges 300 million for Suburban rail loop?
From the 9News report, sounds like the SRL would run Werribee to Sunshine via the current RRL allignment. A win for Metro and VLine commuters (more space for Geelong passengers - plus faster trains, as well as a more frequent and adequate service for suburban customers).
No one actually knows. 9News would have just been trying to fill in the gaps like us. I don't think it's set in stone because of the whole awkward problem of reversing at Sunshine (in a "pure RRL" scenario).
potatoinmymouth
It's now confirmed to use the RRL link route now?
  Crossover Train Controller

Location: St. Albans Victoria
Did anyone hear today's news, opposition leader Bill shorten pledges 300 million for Suburban rail loop?
From the 9News report, sounds like the SRL would run Werribee to Sunshine via the current RRL allignment. A win for Metro and VLine commuters (more space for Geelong passengers - plus faster trains, as well as a more frequent and adequate service for suburban customers).
No one actually knows. 9News would have just been trying to fill in the gaps like us. I don't think it's set in stone because of the whole awkward problem of reversing at Sunshine (in a "pure RRL" scenario).
It's now confirmed to use the RRL link route now?
True Believers
        If the loop is to go via Sunshine I do believe a station is needed in an area which is a  ""Black gap  for rail in the west is needed and that is in the East Keilor / Avondale Heights area . This densely populated area is bisected by the Albion / Broadmeadows section of the North East line but has no access to suburban rail or Tram transport .
          What do others think ?

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