Melbourne Metro tunnel 2

 
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Triplication and express services are incompatible with metro frequencies. Full stop. End of.

I know this isn’t an entirely serious discussion but you can’t pursue sectorisation on the one hand and build more conflict points on the other.

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  John.Z Chief Train Controller

What about Triplication from Northcote to Lalor/Epping (Where line to Wollert will branch off)
Could be done alongside the LX removal work on the line with Reservior already being removed via Skyrail
Arthurton Rd, Bell St, Cramer St, Paschke Cr, Murray Rd, Regent St, Childs Rd and Keon Pde are the only remaining LX on the line. Allows for express services on the line and would be delivered alongside future LX Removal work
ptvcommuter
Triplication should never be an option for Melbourne. We should only be building track pairs from now on.

Wollert/Epping North would be better served as a re-direction of the Upfield Line north of Gowrie. All new track in greenfields and it spaces out the Craigieburn/Upfield tracks too. (This assumes that Seymour BG will run via Airport).

Next we get working on Quadding Burnley to Box Hill and Duplicating all single track sections.
  ptvcommuter Locomotive Fireman

Triplication was just a suggestion and to be fair I’ve realised that it isn’t the right solution for implementing a Metro system
  justarider Chief Train Controller

What about Triplication from Northcote to Lalor/Epping (Where line to Wollert will branch off)
Could be done alongside the LX removal work on the line with Reservior already being removed via Skyrail
Arthurton Rd, Bell St, Cramer St, Paschke Cr, Murray Rd, Regent St, Childs Rd and Keon Pde are the only remaining LX on the line. Allows for express services on the line and would be delivered alongside future LX Removal work
Triplication should never be an option for Melbourne. We should only be building track pairs from now on.

Wollert/Epping North would be better served as a re-direction of the Upfield Line north of Gowrie. All new track in greenfields and it spaces out the Craigieburn/Upfield tracks too. (This assumes that Seymour BG will run via Airport).

Next we get working on Quadding Burnley to Box Hill and Duplicating all single track sections.
John.Z
@John.Z  "never" is a big call.  4 is nicer than 3 but costs more and needs to be justified in each case.

Extending Upfield has one major hurdle. 22 LX removals.
Until a solution for Upfield, as it currently exists, comes forward then making it even worse is crazy.

Quadding to Box Hill. Why? Is it so you can increase the morning express frequency, and run empty trains back to Ringwood for the counter-peak? A whole new track for empty trains - really!
The current time table has no trouble running revenue expresses back to Ringwood in the morning to keep the whole schedule working. Metro don't even think that extending triple to Blackburn, as provided, is worth it.

An example of where triple does work - it is only needed for the peak one way. Mernda / Wollert is in similar situation.

If there are limits on the peak frequency, then it is the Richmond/Loop end of the line. Something that the Metro Tunnel is addressing, but quadding does not.

And yes, single tracks are an abomination to be cast out.

cheers
John
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Anyways you people are getting abit off topic, so I will continue the discussion anyways like a hypocrite.

Extending the Upfield line is problematic due to the 22 LXs, but it's a long term solution to increase the Craigeburn line capacity.

Quadding to Box hill is abit excessive. I'd admit the trains do get badly delayed by 3 tracks, but not to the extent where you should do it all the way to Box hill.

I do think quadruplicating the track from Burnley to Camberwell would be enough to allow more trains on the Lilydale/Belgrave lines, but they also have single track at the terminus of their lines that probably needs to be addressed first.

But that shouldn't be a priority. Anyways to bring the topic back to Metro 2. Triplication of the Clifton corridor would help but I think a full segregation can be justified. The Wollert and Doncaster rail branches would put additional pressure on the network. And providing a connection to the west would help out segregate the Werribee line from the Laverton and Williamstown branches, reducing the amount of delays there.
  ngarner Junior Train Controller

Location: Seville
A question for those who are more up to date than me.

I was at the Spring St end of Bourke St recently with friends who live in the Geelong area, late on a Sunday night. They needed to get back to Southern Cross for their train. Another friend suggested they go to Parliament and train it. Instead they waited for a tram as I commented it would be the more direct way as, to my (dated) knowledge, all trains leaving Flinders St on Sunday evening go through their loop before heading out to their destination.

That made me think about the City Circle Loop was closed by Kennett, with the support of the, then, ARU, in the 1990s. If it was still in use then they wouldn't have had to wait for a tram to arrive to take them to Southern Cross, they could have done the same for a train!

With all the comments about the Clifton Hill line being full along the shared inner section until MM2 is built I assume that there is no way the City Circle Lop could be restored until MM2 is complete (if that ever happens!?) without re-directing some trains directly into Flinders St to open up some capacity?

Comments?

Neil
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

The simpler answer is to just reverse the Clifton Hill Loop at the times when there is currently a lack of connectivity. There’s no rational reason for the timetables to go the way they do.
  TOQ-1 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Or reverse the Burnley Loop so it always runs in the opposite direction of the Clifton Hill group.

The Clifton Hill group running consistently all day helps people who are unfamiliar with Melbourne get around, and all 4 loops should also be consistent. Running clockwise also means there is a conflict avoided between Jolimont and Flinders St where Up trains would otherwise have to cross the down line.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

The simpler answer is to just reverse the Clifton Hill Loop at the times when there is currently a lack of connectivity. There’s no rational reason for the timetables to go the way they do.
potatoinmymouth
The rational reason for Clifton Hill running the direction it does for every train is thus

Running Jolimont - Parliament would induce another conflict path which would add to the one at Clifton Hill, further limiting the number of trains which can be run.

Ideally, the Burnley Group would run in the opposite direction of the Caulfield Group, and the Western Group via Loop after Flinders.

This would provide:
Richmond to Parliament
Richmond to Flinders
Flinders to Parliament
Flinders to Richmond
Southern to Flagstaff
Flagstaff to Southern
Flagstaff to North Melbourne

Provides a train in each direction on each level.
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

A question for those who are more up to date than me.

I was at the Spring St end of Bourke St recently with friends who live in the Geelong area, late on a Sunday night. They needed to get back to Southern Cross for their train. Another friend suggested they go to Parliament and train it. Instead they waited for a tram as I commented it would be the more direct way as, to my (dated) knowledge, all trains leaving Flinders St on Sunday evening go through their loop before heading out to their destination.

That made me think about the City Circle Loop was closed by Kennett, with the support of the, then, ARU, in the 1990s. If it was still in use then they wouldn't have had to wait for a tram to arrive to take them to Southern Cross, they could have done the same for a train!

With all the comments about the Clifton Hill line being full along the shared inner section until MM2 is built I assume that there is no way the City Circle Lop could be restored until MM2 is complete (if that ever happens!?) without re-directing some trains directly into Flinders St to open up some capacity?

Comments?

Neil
ngarner
Hello All,

this is not correct as there is still one City Circle Loop / CCL train in the current time table.

Initially when there were a lot of CCL trains , this was primarily a train balancing measure to keep the spacing between the Eltham and Epping Line trains , as it quickly became apparent that few people actually used a City Circle train as it was no quicker than either walking or in some cases, catching a tram. The problem being the time taken to enter and exit the desired city circle stations.

It was Metro trains that abandoned the turning of the Clifton Hill Loop / CHL Loop Line so as to eliminate crossing trains at Jolimont. The down side of that decision is that the operation of the CCL / CHL loop in the opposite direction cannot now be guaranteed as it has not run opposite to its current flow for nearly a decade now.

When Connex decided to only run the CCL / CHL in one direction for an entire week end , it was brought to their attention of the increased risk of possible signalling system failure due to the lack of turning the CHL / CCL Loop around for an extended period. As a result the non turning of the CHL / CCL Loop was quickly abandoned.

At this point in time I am unsure of whether the CHL Loop is currently running at full capacity or not.

In regards to Southern Cross at Spencer Street , this privately owned station closes to all passenger traffic at midnight / last scheduled train, which is why Suburban Electric post midnight trains do not stop at Southern Cross , as the owner refuses to allow the station to remain open after midnight , even though allowance is made for late running pre midnight scheduled trains to arrive after midnight. ( I do not expect this to change any time soon. Another miracle of privatisation . )

Regards, Radioman.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

Radioman,

Last scheduled Southern Cross service is the 1.15am train to Waurn Ponds (Before it 12.15am and 11.30pm).
Last scheduled Metro train runs at 12.15am (to Hurstbridge).

Why the discrepancy I don't know.
  ngarner Junior Train Controller

Location: Seville
My question hasn't been quite answered as posted but the responses have been very informative and did give me enough to work out that, whether the Clifton Hill Loop is full or not, the Circle ain't coming back!
I'd like to thank everyone who took the time to share their ideas and knowledge

Neil
  Lockie91 Junior Train Controller

@Radioman

The contract for Southern Cross was signed well before all night trains were on the agenda. A few additional late night services have been added but when the current government went all night, Southern across said no. They sighted additional operating and security costs and were not obliged to operate outside of the current contact.

That should all change soon, Southern Cross is up for renegotiation as the owners want to upgrade the station (separate to all the MARL hype) a new contract will be drawn up and I would suspect the government  will force Southern Cross to remain open all night on weekends.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
That should all change soon, Southern Cross is up for renegotiation as the owners want to upgrade the station (separate to all the MARL hype) a new contract will be drawn up and I would suspect the government  will force Southern Cross to remain open all night on weekends.
Lockie91

I wonder...once the old....and may I say useless contractors who oversaw the stations cleanliness and maintenance for the past 13 years are gone, will the new ones be any better and CLEAN some of the stations windows that have NEVER been cleaned since the station was built and the stations interior skeleton which also has also never been cleaned.

Disgraceful, penny pinching, profit before anything else attitude towards one of the main gateways into Melbourne and a very positive verification yet again, that privatisation is cr@p.

Mike.
  Crossover Train Controller

Location: St. Albans Victoria
That should all change soon, Southern Cross is up for renegotiation as the owners want to upgrade the station (separate to all the MARL hype) a new contract will be drawn up and I would suspect the government  will force Southern Cross to remain open all night on weekends.

I wonder...once the old....and may I say useless contractors who oversaw the stations cleanliness and maintenance for the past 13 years are gone, will the new ones be any better and CLEAN some of the stations windows that have NEVER been cleaned since the station was built and the stations interior skeleton which also has also never been cleaned.

Disgraceful, penny pinching, profit before anything else attitude towards one of the main gateways into Melbourne and a very positive verification yet again, that privatisation is cr@p.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Except that I remember Flinders Street and Spencer Street in particular being VERY run down and uncared for pre- privatisation as well
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Expect some announcements from the ALP over this project in the coming days.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Expect some announcements from the ALP over this project in the coming days.
freightgate

Some details leaked by NINE NEWS and assert big changes to the Frankston Line and involve a connection via Fishermans Bend.  I can only assume that pursuant to the discussions on there the line may go from Newport to Port Melborne to Fishermans Bend then somehow into the Frankston line and not to Clifton Hill and Mernda and Seymour interconnect as the Greens have stated they want?
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Hello All,

a minor point in the scheme of things , but Southern Cross at Spencer St is the fourth iteration of a railway station at this location, and like the other three has not been completed to the much touted original proposals , though admittedly  , it has got closer to completion than its predecessors .

Whilst I generally like the overall roof design , the bits below leave a lot to be desired. Whoever thought the idea of placing lighting 15 metre or so above platform level ( 13 & 14 , 15 ) clearly did not envisage the necessity to replace a blown light , and also did not think the necessity of well lit platforms was a priority , with the result that the above platforms are still dim.

The placement of Passenger Information Displays ( PIDS ) is also not optimal , and signage is both haphazard and not well placed. For instance , the three main entrances could be improved by large letters above each entrance ( A for cnr of Spencer and Collins, B for Bourke , and C for Collins for example ) to enable visitors easier orientation , Victoria has a long history and bad habit of appalling signposting , this being but one of numerous examples.

The Bus Terminal has clearly been designed by someone who loathes bus travel , and I suspect some maximum security prisons are more welcoming than Southern Cross' Bus Terminal. ( This is an assertion , as I have not been in a Maximum Security facility ! )

I also agree that station cleaning is not optimal , though as they appear to have yet again cut back on the number of cleaning staff , one should not be surprised. Again, the cleaning of public places and facilities has a low priority in Australia, especially Victoria, where one often gains the distinct  impression of a reluctance to do it properly , and to begrudge the necessity both for it to be done, and for the necessity to pay people to actually do it , let alone do it properly . This is also quite noticeable at Tullamarine Airport , another place where cleaning , let alone proper cleaning , is also begrudged .

Regards, Radioman.
  Lockspike Assistant Commissioner

Some details leaked by NINE NEWS and assert big changes to the Frankston Line and involve a connection via Fishermans Bend.  I can only assume that pursuant to the discussions on there the line may go from Newport to Port Melborne to Fishermans Bend then somehow into the Frankston line and not to Clifton Hill and Mernda and Seymour interconnect as the Greens have stated they want?
bevans
And then via the reinstated Sth Geelong - Portarlington line and through the yet to be announced Portarlington - Franga tunnel, thereby creating the BCRL*. Cool
*Bay Circle Rail Link
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Good on these guys for pushing Fitzroy for a station on the Metro Tunnel 2 project.

  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Everyone, can you tell me what's the best option for Metro Tunnel 2?

Should we build the whole section in one go?

Or build it into 2 sections?

If so which section first? The western half or the eastern half of the metro project?
  Lockie91 Junior Train Controller

Depends what the government means by “built in sections” Most tunnels are bored from multi directions to speed up the process. For example MM1, with the TBM’s being dropped at two different locations.

The Government could theoretically drop two TBMS in at Newport and tunnel towards Cliftion Hill. Commissioning “Stage One” between Newport and the City while the TBM’s continue on to Clifton Hill for “Stage Two”

IMO The western section first, the frees up TPH on the Werbbie Line which is in a growth corridor while also delivering rail to the Governments redevelopment baby Fishermen’s Bend. Their is still a few more train paths to be squeezed out of the Clifton hill group now the Hurstbridge upgrade has been completed. I also remember so money being announced for Junction works at Clifton Hill, this might be an interim solution until MM2.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

Everyone, can you tell me what's the best option for Metro Tunnel 2?

Should we build the whole section in one go?

Or build it into 2 sections?

If so which section first? The western half or the eastern half of the metro project?
True Believers
I don't really see the point of building it in two stages.

Western Section in conjunction with:
*Altona Loop Duplication or
*Altona Loop Extention to Point Cook
Has massive benefits for the Wyndham Area, getting more people onto trains

Eastern Section allows decoupling of Mernda and Hurstbridge lines (ofc).

Just build it one go, the longer it drags out, the longer the benefits have a chance to outweight the costs.
  ptvcommuter Locomotive Fireman

Any chance of it being announced as part of the campaign trail for transport in Victoria ?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

I really struggle to see Labor not announcing it, given the two “leaks” showing it as part of the future rail network. Their ministers also refused to rule it out repeatedly when asked in a manner which to me at least strongly suggested they were deferring the announcement.

They seem to be waiting for something though; I wonder if that something could be a “shovels in the ground” moment for Metro 1, lending credibility to their political argument for Metro 2.

It’s very nearly digging time at Parkville, and given that’s a Metro 2 interchange, I could definitely envisage a good hi-vis press conference in the next week or so.

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