New airport roads to streamline cars, rail at least a decade away

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 19 Oct 2018 07:05
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
We spend billions widening the Tullarmaine Freeway only to be told the trip is now 3.5 mins longer, we have $500m being spent on upgrades to the Melbourne Airport to help cars and not a single dollar is being invested by the airport in getting the railway station(s) sorted out and underway at the location.  

The mind boggles seriously.

Could this city be managed any worse for transport than it currently is?

Melbourne Airport has one of the world's biggest car parks, with 23,000 spaces for the public, and another 12,000 bays for rental cars and taxis. Last financial year it had revenue of $145 million and profit of $86 million from car parking.
Somebody

Embarassing.

New airport roads to streamline cars, rail at least a decade away

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  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

It’s not in the airport’s control when the train line gets built, and it’s a decade off anyway.

They’re perfectly entitled to improve car access in the meantime, and, in any case, car traffic will always be a substantial portion of airport access.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

It’s not in the airport’s control when the train line gets built, and it’s a decade off anyway.

They’re perfectly entitled to improve car access in the meantime, and, in any case, car traffic will always be a substantial portion of airport access.
potatoinmymouth
With all the dosh the airport owners are making why can't they stump up cash for a rail line. But oh no, these days you socialise the losses and the private company keeps the profits. And why do you think they perfectly entitled to improve car access and inconvenience the public who don't use the airport with more vehicles on the road. Sounds like a Young Liberal mantra. I don't know why people think this is OK as obviously you do.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I am in a roundabout way suggesting they should build the station as a part of these works and have it ready for access which can start sooner.
  ngarner Train Controller

Location: Seville
Considering they are already trying to get a foot in the door on the MARL contract IMHO Bevans has a point

Neil
  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner

We spend billions widening the Tullarmaine Freeway only to be told the trip is now 3.5 mins longer, we have $500m being spent on upgrades to the Melbourne Airport to help cars and not a single dollar is being invested by the airport in getting the railway station(s) sorted out and underway at the location.  

The mind boggles seriously.

Could this city be managed any worse for transport than it currently is?

Melbourne Airport has one of the world's biggest car parks, with 23,000 spaces for the public, and another 12,000 bays for rental cars and taxis. Last financial year it had revenue of $145 million and profit of $86 million from car parking.

Embarassing.

New airport roads to streamline cars, rail at least a decade away
bevans
Why does the mind boggle? This is Victoria. The State has been doing this for Decades. If we compare Melbourne's Rail Network to Sydney's, we are just so far off it it is not funny.

Victoria has NEVER been serious about its rail network. Just compare what has been built in the last 60 years in the Sydney as opposed to Melbourne Rail networks.

Sydney

Eastern Suburbs Line
Epping to Chatswood Line
Airport Line
South West Rail Link
North West Metro (fully constructed and being tested at the moment)

Melbourne

Extension from Altona to Laverton
Regional Rail Link
South Morang Extension
Mernda Extension

Not to mention that Sydney has started Tunnel boring on their second stage. All we have done in Melbourne is dig dirty great big holes, and not a cm of tunnel in god knows how many years.

Michael
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Expecting or assuming that Mel Airport should fund a railway is wishful thinking at best.

Melbourne Airport is not obliged to fund the transport systems used to access it. The airport is a monopoly, why does it need to spend one cent. Look at how much they profiteering from parking, nearly 100% on costs.

If the govt makes the airport contribute, the airport will just then add extra costs to the airport user charge added to fares. It will not cost them 1 cent and they will not loose one passenger.

Airport traffic is barely 1.5 lanes of traffic so its only a minor contributor of the traffic congestion.

At the end of the day the current rail solution is around an obsence $10B and the state has other priorities with its PT budget.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Melbourne

Extension from Altona to Laverton
Regional Rail Link
South Morang Extension
Mernda Extension
mejhammers1

Last 60 years? What about the City Loop? NE SG? Western SG? Regional Fast Rail?

I agree Melbourne lags far behind but let’s not be silly.
  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner

Melbourne

Extension from Altona to Laverton
Regional Rail Link
South Morang Extension
Mernda Extension

Last 60 years? What about the City Loop? NE SG? Western SG? Regional Fast Rail?

I agree Melbourne lags far behind but let’s not be silly.
potatoinmymouth
Sorry I forgot the City Loop. I will give you that one.

Western SG (Well for Sydney I could have included the Northern and Southern Freight Lines for Sydney)
NE SG (Is not a new alignment. Simply re-gauging existing Broad Gauge, and what an absolute piece of crap that has become)
Regional Fast Rail (You are Joking, right ?)


Michael
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Hello All,

the reality of the Airport Rail Link is the high cost of getting from Southern Cross to Tullamarine, irrespective of which route is chosen.

The current preferred option of Via Sunshine , a recognised transport hub , and making provision for V/Line services to run into Melbourne via Tullamarine is sound, as it allows regional access, and outer western suburbs access without the need for people to travel into Southern Cross first.

There is also the slight problem of building an optimal alignment to get the travel time from Southern Cross to Tullamarine down to around 25 minutes , this is the perceived travel time to make the project worthwhile from a passenger usage perspective. ( In the Off Peak the Airport Bus takes 25 minutes ! )

The Kennett Government decision to guarantee no competing public transport to the operators of the Tullamarine Upgraded Freeway Toll road may have delayed that process, but with the benefit of hindsight , the Airport Bus has demonstrated that it can meet demand, plus it pays the State Treasury an estimated $1m / annum. So from a Treasury perspective, what is not to like about the still current arrangement ?

I would also add that neither the Sydney Airport , nor the Brisbane Airport trains are packed with airport only passengers ; in Sydney's case , the fact that Airport trains ( T8 ) also service Cronulla ( T4 ) , Waterfall ( T4 ), and Liverpool ( T8 ) makes the service viable , it would not be anywhere near viable otherwise. ( And did not the Airport Rail Link financiers go broke ? )

I am supportive of the Airport Rail Link to Tullamarine , but lets be realistic about both its viability , its actual costs , and the revenue generated , and a realisation that the line , off itself , excluding its onward connections , will still require an annual subsidy, whereas the Airport Bus Link , which will remain in service anyhow , will still pay the Treasury an annual fee .

Regards, Radioman.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Hello All,

the reality of the Airport Rail Link is the high cost of getting from Southern Cross to Tullamarine, irrespective of which route is chosen.

The current preferred option of Via Sunshine , a recognised transport hub , and making provision for V/Line services to run into Melbourne via Tullamarine is sound, as it allows regional access, and outer western suburbs access without the need for people to travel into Southern Cross first.

Radioman

I like your post and agree however the plan is not to run V/Line services from the North East line via the Airport, it will be metro services with a change at Wallan from the looks of the leaked rail plan.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Regional Fast Rail (You are Joking, right ?)

Michael
mejhammers1
RFR / RRL for all of their faults were actually really good projects which have become victims in many ways of their own success (not forgetting of course the dumbing down of the original project and singling on the Bendy line)

The RFR turned what had been a trickle of passengers using some lines into a flood with lines like Bendigo now pretty much at capacity and in need of further upgrades. Ballarat and Geelong the same except that they are actually getting their upgrades already.


RRL may not have seen much benefit in terms of travel times (if any) but it has allowed massive capacity increases in the Sunshine > SC corridor, just go and stand on P4 at Footscray in peak hour if you want to see it in action, it is quite something. It also allowed capacity increases on the Werribee line by re-routing Geetroit services.

It doesn't matter what the colour of your politics or state I don't see how you could say those two were dud projects. Room for improvement? Certainly. I would give them a B- or C+ but certainly not an F.

BG
  penguin2233 Locomotive Driver

Location: Craigieburn, Melbourne VIC
Hello All,

the reality of the Airport Rail Link is the high cost of getting from Southern Cross to Tullamarine, irrespective of which route is chosen.

The current preferred option of Via Sunshine , a recognised transport hub , and making provision for V/Line services to run into Melbourne via Tullamarine is sound, as it allows regional access, and outer western suburbs access without the need for people to travel into Southern Cross first.

I like your post and agree however the plan is not to run V/Line services from the North East line via the Airport, it will be metro services with a change at Wallan from the looks of the leaked rail plan.
bevans
Metro to Wallan? Sounds viable to me, maybe extending Craigieburn line? But Extending Craigieburn station to 3 platofrms doesn't sound very easy to me (if they do).
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Hello All,

I would also add that neither the Sydney Airport , nor the Brisbane Airport trains are packed with airport only passengers ; in Sydney's case , the fact that Airport trains ( T8 ) also service Cronulla ( T4 ) , Waterfall ( T4 ), and Liverpool ( T8 ) makes the service viable , it would not be anywhere near viable otherwise. ( And did not the Airport Rail Link financiers go broke ? )


Regards, Radioman.
Radioman

Sorry to get off track, but why did the NSWGR change its destinations to numbers like T4 etc Question

Was it to confuse everybody...because I am..Confused

Mike.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Hello All,

I would also add that neither the Sydney Airport , nor the Brisbane Airport trains are packed with airport only passengers ; in Sydney's case , the fact that Airport trains ( T8 ) also service Cronulla ( T4 ) , Waterfall ( T4 ), and Liverpool ( T8 ) makes the service viable , it would not be anywhere near viable otherwise. ( And did not the Airport Rail Link financiers go broke ? )


Regards, Radioman.

Sorry to get off track, but why did the NSWGR change its destinations to numbers like T4 etc Question

Was it to confuse everybody...because I am..Confused

Mike.
The Vinelander
Numbers are very useful for situations where a destination may be reached by a number of routes and service patterns are sufficiently predictable that identifying the ambiguity. Melbourne tram routes are a perfect analogue. Telling someone standing on Riversdale Rd to get on a Docklands tram when their destination is Swan St is useless; telling them to take a 70 but not a 75 is perfectly descriptive.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner


Victoria has NEVER been serious about its rail network. Just compare what has been built in the last 60 years in the Sydney as opposed to Melbourne Rail networks.

Sydney

Eastern Suburbs Line
Epping to Chatswood Line
Airport Line
South West Rail Link
North West Metro (fully constructed and being tested at the moment)

Melbourne

Extension from Altona to Laverton
Regional Rail Link
South Morang Extension
Mernda Extension



mejhammers1
Wait what?  You think sydney has been at the forefront.   Eastern suburbs line took nearly 30 years to build.  Epping chatswood was envisioned by bradfield in the form of a st leonards to eastwood line.  Northern sydney freight bypass was years late, especially the underpass at north starthfield and IMO only half done.  Loops between hornsby and maitland were built too short for todays train lengths.  SSFL was 2 decades late.  
Sydneys main improvemnts have been the airport line and the east hills line.  

Perth and brisbane have been at the forefront of improvements.  Perth having electrified its railways, building new higher speed lines, new cbd underground stations.  Brisbane having doubled its cbd capacity in the 90's.  opened the gold coast line, springfield line, kippa ring line, airport line.  Along with the dual gauge freight line.  Extension of electrification to rosewood, doomben and reopening of the cleveland line along with very half arsed track amplicifcation projects
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Nothing mentioning the 59 tram, which has been serving the wrong airport for nearly fifty years.
  ngarner Train Controller

Location: Seville
I disagree that Victoria "NEVER" was serious about rail. Go back to the 1880s and the 'Octopus Act'. As commented elsewhere in these forums the only locations that were more than 40 miles (i think the figure was) were the alpine regions when the VR was at its peak; yes I won't argue against the fact that some lines were just plain stupid and a waste of money but that doesn't counter my point.
Electrification of the metro area from 1918 is another example; 100 years ago as another thread is promoting. Sir Harold Clapp was extremely serious about railways; e.g. original Spirit of Progress including streamlining the S class, all the advertising he had the VR promote to try to increase traffic, Operation Pheonix in the 1950s.

The problem is a lot more recent; I would suggest the decline began when bean counters began to move in and cause closure of branch lines, declines in maintenance of track and rolling stock and the like. The VR/Vicrail was still something of a force when I worked there in the early 1980s but the decline had definitely already begun and the 1990s (Kennett's cuts, Brack's non achievements, Brumby's slight improvement of Brack's, Napthine, et al) and subsequent years just exacerbated the problem. The premiers and their parties of the last few decades have a lot to answer for. Andrews, for the many failings that he presides over (MFB/CFA, electoral funds rorts etc), has actually done more than a little to make up some ground and for that I hope he gets the chance to continue to do so (even though I wouldn't necessarily vote for him myself).

If we look at Melbourne's trams the politicians were trying to do the same thing there but Robert Risson was strong enough to enable them to survive and look at what we have as a result - one of the largest systems in the world (not necessarily one of the best but...). If he hadn't been in charge of the MMTB Melbourne would most likely have gone the same way as all of the other tram cities of this country and imagine the problems without them. I reckon Brisbane is really regretting letting him go because they would probably still have trams there if Risson had stayed with the BCC and not moved south.

If you want to make a point I suggest use of appropriate terminology would make it in a better way, otherwise you might raise the ire a more than a few.

[Phew! - End of rant]

Edit - oh and if you were trying to get a rise out of someone I heartily congratulate you; masterful job there 'cause I took the bait and how!

Neil
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Hello All,

the VR Suburban Electrifcation was completed by 1929 , just before the Great Depression , which meant electrification places like Newport , Williamstown, St Albans, Broadmeadow, Coburg, Epping, Eltham, Mount Waverley, Lilydale, Fern tree Gully , Dandenong, Frankston and Sandringham . Most of these places were semi rural !

When I was at High School in the 1960s people rented holiday houses at places like Carrum , Chelsea and Bonbeach on the Frankston Line, all accessible by Suburban electric Train . Same goes for a country visit to Fern Tree Gully or Lilydale , all by Suburban Electric Train .

I understand that a similar situation also applied to Sydney Electric trains , and even Adelaide's Red Hens served places considered remote , such as Hallet's Cove .

Reverting back to the VR , remember the E ( E1102 - E1111 ) class electric locomotives ? They were built from spare Red Tait train components ( this was an era when keeping a stock of spare parts was considered sound management and a good idea , which it still is )

I have subsequently wondered if the Victorian Treasury had a picture of an E class on the wall with a note to the effect "...a perfect waste of taxpayers money !..."


Regards, Radioman.
  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner

@tazzer96 Even if Sydney's rail netwrok hasn't been at the forefront they have still done a lot more than Melbourne. A lot more. So it has taken 30 years to do the Eastern Suburbs Rail. Well it has been built. in the meanwhile Airport and Rowville has been mooted since 1969 and still vapourware. Melbourne's system is a toy train set compared to Sydney's.

Michael

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