Shepparton pax rail

 
  historian Deputy Commissioner

Broad gauge line from Craigieburn to Seymour is Double-line-block signalling.  Sections or 'blocks' are switched in to enable one train per line per block.  i.e. Craigieburn- Wallan, Wallan - Kilmore East, Kilmore East - Broadford, Broadford - Seymour.
The Double Line Blocks Craigieburn - Seymour are a veritable working museum.
It's a good thing that the line works fairly well as with only one refuge on the Dn at Broadford, and a trailing crossover at each block post, there are precious few opportunities to get rid of a failed train.

Are there any other examples of a block telegraph system left in Australia?
Lockspike

No; this is the last.

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  historian Deputy Commissioner

On another note, what safeworking system is in use between Dysart and Seymour? It can't be DLB as it is single track???
The DLB block ends at Dysart, from there to Seymour is part of Seymour station limits.
With the relaxed procedures for station working, I do trust the single line has been set up to prevent an opposing move. At about 3km long, there is enough time for a signaller to forget they have a train in (what is effectively) the section.
Lockspike

It's fully track circuited and part of the Seymour relay interlocking.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Well, well, well!

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/delivering-the-shepparton-rail-line-freight-upgrade/

Standardising Shepp rears its head in a government press release for the first time in a while.

(I know this thread is called “pax rail” but it has evolved to talk about the upgrades more broadly. I also know that this comment is meaningless as someone will create a new News thread to discuss it, but...)

It’s sensible policy but I’m not sure how it meshes with the promise of additional pax services. More pax services on the Seymour-Melbourne section of the NE doesn’t work well, and if you do that you end up with the ludicrous situation of a single track major corridor paralleling a double track corridor solely for Seymour locals.

It’ll be interesting to see what their options are.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Well, well, well!

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/delivering-the-shepparton-rail-line-freight-upgrade/

Standardising Shepp rears its head in a government press release for the first time in a while.

(I know this thread is called “pax rail” but it has evolved to talk about the upgrades more broadly. I also know that this comment is meaningless as someone will create a new News thread to discuss it, but...)

It’s sensible policy but I’m not sure how it meshes with the promise of additional pax services. More pax services on the Seymour-Melbourne section of the NE doesn’t work well, and if you do that you end up with the ludicrous situation of a single track major corridor paralleling a double track corridor solely for Seymour locals.

It’ll be interesting to see what their options are.
potatoinmymouth
Part of this is making sure that the increased passenger services dont make the freight services hard to deliver.  Legislatively passenger always gets priority over freight so some more planning to separate the two so the legislation doesnt need to be used to freight's disadvantage.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
the Block telegraph system is to be apparently replaced as part of the Signaling upgrades to happen in the near future.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

And probably replaced with something far less reliable (unless it's CTC which isn't too bad IMO).
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

And probably replaced with something far less reliable (unless it's CTC which isn't too bad IMO).
Carnot

What are the inherent unreliabilities with other "modern" systems? As usual, not trying to antagonise, just trying to understand Smile
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/shepparton-station-stabling-construction-underway/
Hold onto your hats folks - V/Line are managing construction of the new stabling road.

Oh well, it’s only 300m of track. How wrong can they get it? (...)
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/shepparton-station-stabling-construction-underway/
Hold onto your hats folks - V/Line are managing construction of the new stabling road.

Oh well, it’s only 300m of track. How wrong can they get it? (...)
potatoinmymouth
They're not subcontracting it so i think they'll be ok.  This is also something they've done plenty of before Wink
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/shepparton-station-stabling-construction-underway/
Hold onto your hats folks - V/Line are managing construction of the new stabling road.

Oh well, it’s only 300m of track. How wrong can they get it? (...)
potatoinmymouth
Non gauge convertible for a start?
Timber sleepers?
Sufficient for a ~ 12 car train?
  woodford Chief Commissioner

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/shepparton-station-stabling-construction-underway/
Hold onto your hats folks - V/Line are managing construction of the new stabling road.

Oh well, it’s only 300m of track. How wrong can they get it? (...)
potatoinmymouth
VLine track crews do this sort of thing VERY well. It will VERY likely be second hand timber sleepers, rail and any turnouts required,as VLine has plenty of all these lying around. This makes the job quite cheap in price.

A crew of 5 can do this in around 5 days.

woodford
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/shepparton-station-stabling-construction-underway/
Hold onto your hats folks - V/Line are managing construction of the new stabling road.

Oh well, it’s only 300m of track. How wrong can they get it? (...)
VLine track crews do this sort of thing VERY well. It will VERY likely be second hand timber sleepers, rail and any turnouts required,as VLine has plenty of all these lying around. This makes the job quite cheap in price.

A crew of 5 can do this in around 5 days.

woodford
woodford
Begs the question then why TfV makes such a big deal out of these small jobs like announced and funded years ago, business cases , re announced over and over - not rocket science just a lack of urgency on the part of TfV, PTV and VLP to get get a simple job done using surplus material .   Two years ago announced extended stabling at Ararat, still not a sod turned. Simple job, bit of earthworks to extend siding in Up direction 100m using reclaimed sleepers and serviceable rail. Extend lighting pathways bit of fencing - not rocket science . In old VR the DE would knock that up in two weeks. Today we waste more money on business cases to justify these sort of minor jobs than the job probably costs . In both the Ararat and Shepparton cases we are needlessly running MT cars to/from Seymour (for several years now) and in case of Ararat from Ballarat (since August 2017) at additional opex simply because those responsible cannot get their act together when the funds are allocated .
This latest release re Shepp talks even more weirdly about a business case to justify a 9th day return service . Now a good railway professional with marketing expertise would in past years make a decision if a ninth trip was worth it or not, or if near an election a pollie would make that decision for us and that would be it . No we take business cases to the most ridiculous degree in wasting money on a business case , that a good professional railway manager should be making at no cost to the taxpayer as part of his day to day job .
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/shepparton-station-stabling-construction-underway/
Hold onto your hats folks - V/Line are managing construction of the new stabling road.

Oh well, it’s only 300m of track. How wrong can they get it? (...)
VLine track crews do this sort of thing VERY well. It will VERY likely be second hand timber sleepers, rail and any turnouts required,as VLine has plenty of all these lying around. This makes the job quite cheap in price.

A crew of 5 can do this in around 5 days.

woodford
Begs the question then why TfV makes such a big deal out of these small jobs like announced and funded years ago, business cases , re announced over and over - not rocket science just a lack of urgency on the part of TfV, PTV and VLP to get get a simple job done using surplus material .   Two years ago announced extended stabling at Ararat, still not a sod turned. Simple job, bit of earthworks to extend siding in Up direction 100m using reclaimed sleepers and serviceable rail. Extend lighting pathways bit of fencing - not rocket science . In old VR the DE would knock that up in two weeks. Today we waste more money on business cases to justify these sort of minor jobs than the job probably costs . In both the Ararat and Shepparton cases we are needlessly running MT cars to/from Seymour (for several years now) and in case of Ararat from Ballarat (since August 2017) at additional opex simply because those responsible cannot get their act together when the funds are allocated .
This latest release re Shepp talks even more weirdly about a business case to justify a 9th day return service . Now a good railway professional with marketing expertise would in past years make a decision if a ninth trip was worth it or not, or if near an election a pollie would make that decision for us and that would be it . No we take business cases to the most ridiculous degree in wasting money on a business case , that a good professional railway manager should be making at no cost to the taxpayer as part of his day to day job .
TO be fair, the business case is not about putting in the stabling.  it is about the future of the whole line which at the moment is single track with no loops all the way from Shep to Seymour.  They need to work out where to put the loop, how to best upgrade signalling, and other works.  Standardisation might be on the cards though with 9 long distance VLo services in the future i suspect it might stay BG longer (although the business case should by rights also consider the cost of the Tottenham-SCS works needed to increase SG capacity as this is definately part of a logical option if they use the long distance model VLos and would offer consistency with the Albury fleet).  Plus they need to work out how to keep freight capacity in the line too.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/shepparton-station-stabling-construction-underway/
Hold onto your hats folks - V/Line are managing construction of the new stabling road.

Oh well, it’s only 300m of track. How wrong can they get it? (...)
VLine track crews do this sort of thing VERY well. It will VERY likely be second hand timber sleepers, rail and any turnouts required,as VLine has plenty of all these lying around. This makes the job quite cheap in price.

A crew of 5 can do this in around 5 days.

woodford
Begs the question then why TfV makes such a big deal out of these small jobs like announced and funded years ago, business cases , re announced over and over - not rocket science just a lack of urgency on the part of TfV, PTV and VLP to get get a simple job done using surplus material .   Two years ago announced extended stabling at Ararat, still not a sod turned. Simple job, bit of earthworks to extend siding in Up direction 100m using reclaimed sleepers and serviceable rail. Extend lighting pathways bit of fencing - not rocket science . In old VR the DE would knock that up in two weeks. Today we waste more money on business cases to justify these sort of minor jobs than the job probably costs . In both the Ararat and Shepparton cases we are needlessly running MT cars to/from Seymour (for several years now) and in case of Ararat from Ballarat (since August 2017) at additional opex simply because those responsible cannot get their act together when the funds are allocated .
This latest release re Shepp talks even more weirdly about a business case to justify a 9th day return service . Now a good railway professional with marketing expertise would in past years make a decision if a ninth trip was worth it or not, or if near an election a pollie would make that decision for us and that would be it . No we take business cases to the most ridiculous degree in wasting money on a business case , that a good professional railway manager should be making at no cost to the taxpayer as part of his day to day job .
kuldalai

The designs I have seen for the stabling in Ararat (via the council's plans for the precinct) seems to be adding a whole second road and not just extending the current one. If this is the design, possibly there are trackside services that need to be moved first.

Agree it is ridiculous that it has taken so long to put in about 100m of track with a new fence around it.

It is Liberal party policy to add an extra morning service to Ararat, which I could imagine would be TfV policy anyway, so perhaps a morning timetable shake up will mean a second road isn't needed beyond the next timetable change and this is why it has been held back.
  ngarner Train Controller

Location: Seville
According to Railexpress work has begun
https://www.railexpress.com.au/stabling-upgrades-underway-at-shepparton-station

Neil
  hbedriver Chief Train Controller

Just to clarify a remark within the above troika of posts from James.au, there actually is a crossing loop in the Seymour - Shep section, located at Murchison East. This is used daily (M - F) for crossing trains (evening Down against the Up MT cars), plus as required for freight (Up Deniliquin/Tocumwals, the QUBE jobs), and even occasionally for loading grain. Also used as a Block Post within the train order section.

The location is entirely manual signalled, hand operated points, and of course slow. Then again, it is also cheap and extremely reliable. Unlike modern signalling systems, which are not cheap and not reliable, although usually frustratingly slow.

The curve speeds at Nagambie station (Down end), Murchison East station (both ends) and Up end of Mooroopna could be eased, each saving probably a minute or more in running times. That could offset the extra time needed if they re-open Toolamba, which is developing into quite a decent sized (and rather nice looking) town. That's probably an argument for elsewhere.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/shepparton-station-stabling-construction-underway/
Hold onto your hats folks - V/Line are managing construction of the new stabling road.

Oh well, it’s only 300m of track. How wrong can they get it? (...)
VLine track crews do this sort of thing VERY well. It will VERY likely be second hand timber sleepers, rail and any turnouts required,as VLine has plenty of all these lying around. This makes the job quite cheap in price.

A crew of 5 can do this in around 5 days.

woodford
Begs the question then why TfV makes such a big deal out of these small jobs like announced and funded years ago, business cases , re announced over and over - not rocket science just a lack of urgency on the part of TfV, PTV and VLP to get get a simple job done using surplus material .   Two years ago announced extended stabling at Ararat, still not a sod turned. Simple job, bit of earthworks to extend siding in Up direction 100m using reclaimed sleepers and serviceable rail. Extend lighting pathways bit of fencing - not rocket science . In old VR the DE would knock that up in two weeks. Today we waste more money on business cases to justify these sort of minor jobs than the job probably costs . In both the Ararat and Shepparton cases we are needlessly running MT cars to/from Seymour (for several years now) and in case of Ararat from Ballarat (since August 2017) at additional opex simply because those responsible cannot get their act together when the funds are allocated .
This latest release re Shepp talks even more weirdly about a business case to justify a 9th day return service . Now a good railway professional with marketing expertise would in past years make a decision if a ninth trip was worth it or not, or if near an election a pollie would make that decision for us and that would be it . No we take business cases to the most ridiculous degree in wasting money on a business case , that a good professional railway manager should be making at no cost to the taxpayer as part of his day to day job .
kuldalai
Kaldalai said...............


"Begs the question then why TfV makes such a big deal out of these small jobs..............."

Managment do not like change, it means taking a risk and of course taking the blame if it blows up in there face, as a consequnce they will try and shift/transfer the blame by having things like, a business case study, an investigation by an indepenedent body, an investigation by a consultant all these are attempts to transfer blame to someone else.

Maintenence problems are rarely an issue here is the problem is nearly always well defined and management can easily see there way ahead.

This has been going on as long as there has been management.

woodford
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Just to clarify a remark within the above troika of posts from James.au, there actually is a crossing loop in the Seymour - Shep section, located at Murchison East. This is used daily (M - F) for crossing trains (evening Down against the Up MT cars), plus as required for freight (Up Deniliquin/Tocumwals, the QUBE jobs), and even occasionally for loading grain. Also used as a Block Post within the train order section.

The location is entirely manual signalled, hand operated points, and of course slow. Then again, it is also cheap and extremely reliable. Unlike modern signalling systems, which are not cheap and not reliable, although usually frustratingly slow.

The curve speeds at Nagambie station (Down end), Murchison East station (both ends) and Up end of Mooroopna could be eased, each saving probably a minute or more in running times. That could offset the extra time needed if they re-open Toolamba, which is developing into quite a decent sized (and rather nice looking) town. That's probably an argument for elsewhere.
hbedriver
Thanks for the correction.  I was under the impression that Murchison East was not in service at all.  Ill go do some reading...

And I've deleted the troika.  Sorry, not sure what happened there nor why i didn't notice it before now.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Managment do not like change, it means taking a risk and of course taking the blame if it blows up in there face, as a consequnce they will try and shift/transfer the blame by having things like, a business case study, an investigation by an indepenedent body, an investigation by a consultant all these are attempts to transfer blame to someone else.

Maintenence problems are rarely an issue here is the problem is nearly always well defined and management can easily see there way ahead.

This has been going on as long as there has been management.
woodford
This is an example of a good thing of privatisation.  VLine management would be so scared of breathing the wrong way on some issues sometimes as they are the immediate and easy scapegoat if things dont work out politically.  If they are separate then theyre insultated from political madness and machination that is looking to deflect the blame elsewhere.

ARTC is a step in the right direction in this respect - told to act like a private sector operator and seems to attract less blame in the community (ignoring these boards of course) for its actions.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Do not mistake 'managers' for 'bureaucrats and/or bean counters'.
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
This:
http://regionalrailrevival.vic.gov.au/about/news/shepparton-stabling
says: stabling for one train at Shep station. Finish by the end of the year.

This:
http://regionalrailrevival.vic.gov.au/shepparton
says, inter-alia,
Stage two includes:

   new stabling at or north of Shepparton to house VLocity trains
   platform extensions at Shepparton, Mooroopna, Murchison East and Nagambie stations
   signalling and track upgrades to enable trains to travel at up to 130km/h
   upgrades to 54 level crossing between Seymour and Shepparton.
   (a few of these are farmgate crossings)

Well, the work site has certainly been established:



Arrival in Shepparton presents an ungaily series of piles ... of soil, spent ballast, spent sleepers and an untidy heap of pallets (wherever they come from):



The former Freight Australia depot is looking worse for the wear



We may yet see these buildings demolished as they are said to be invaded by white ants



So where is the stabling siding going to be?



Nothing appears to be marked out.



Is it a new track or an existing track with lighting and a new footpath?



This is rumour 1, a stabling site next year, rumoured to be somewhere here, Grahamvale.

  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

This:
http://regionalrailrevival.vic.gov.au/about/news/shepparton-stabling
says: stabling for one train at Shep station. Finish by the end of the year.

This:
http://regionalrailrevival.vic.gov.au/shepparton
says, inter-alia,
Stage two includes:

   new stabling at or north of Shepparton to house VLocity trains
   platform extensions at Shepparton, Mooroopna, Murchison East and Nagambie stations
   signalling and track upgrades to enable trains to travel at up to 130km/h
   upgrades to 54 level crossing between Seymour and Shepparton.
   (a few of these are farmgate crossings)

Well, the work site has certainly been established:



Arrival in Shepparton presents an ungaily series of piles ... of soil, spent ballast, spent sleepers and an untidy heap of pallets (wherever they come from):



The former Freight Australia depot is looking worse for the wear



We may yet see these buildings demolished as they are said to be invaded by white ants



So where is the stabling siding going to be?



Nothing appears to be marked out.



Is it a new track or an existing track with lighting and a new footpath?



This is rumour 1, a stabling site next year, rumoured to be somewhere here, Grahamvale.

574M
From an Operational view point the most logical site for any stabling / servicing for any passenger stock is either at the Down end of Shepparton Yard (limited area though) or potentially on a disused oil sidings site on the Down side of Shepparton station .

In the first instance the immediate need is to be able to stable a second loco hauled set at Shepp each night to avoid running MT cars in both directions to and from Seymour (which has been going on for close to 2 years now .)
So the Yard job will no doubt be a low cost short term job to cover up to 2 years till the Shepp service is converted to V/Locity operation .

At that time  Mangalore - Shepp upgraded to Class-2 track allowing 130kmh for DMU with over 40 lx all boom protected . Remote control signalling and remote loop at  Murchison East and maybe Tabilk too . Provide overrun protection at Seymour so Up & Down Shepps can cross at Seymour .  Eight return services daily, two hour trip to Melbourne. Platform extensions as required to accommodate 6 car V/Locity sets . At that time then the old oil sidings site at down end of Shepp would be the best location for a 2 - 3 road  overnight  V/Locity stabling / servicing facility .

Classic case of a rail service getting a long overdue upgrade owing to the efforts of a very pro active Independent local State Member who has been in both ears of State & Federal Governments . -  The squeaking wheel gets oiled first !!!
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

In the first instance the immediate need is to be able to stable a second loco hauled set at Shepp each night to avoid running MT cars in both directions to and from Seymour (which has been going on for close to 2 years now .)
So the Yard job will no doubt be a low cost short term job to cover up to 2 years till the Shepp service is converted to V/Locity operation .
kuldalai
If only V/Line was a more creative operator... that evening empty cars movement could have been carrying passengers and meeting the last Seymour local. The morning one would have been a bit early though!
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
Some progress at Shepparton.

The former Vline ~ Freight Australia Freight Centre has been demolished.



the task is completed:



and from this

it appears that 3 road in Shepparton is the candidate for a new stabling siding.

  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
So the goods road is being used?

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