8606 - maintenance train - October 2018

 
  Bevan Wall Deputy Commissioner

Recently re-activated electric loco 8606 hauled its first train tonight, no.E702 works train from Clyde into Sydney. It was scheduled to run through the City Circle, but when I checked around midnight it was at North Sydney, so obviously must have run over the Harbour Bridge!
If anyone had said to me forty years ago that I would be loitering around a suburban station at 10.30pm just to point a camera at an electric loco I would have told them "it will never happen"!
BW



https://youtu.be/WWdKEz-ebX8

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  simstrain Chief Commissioner

great to see it working again
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

If they could get a second one it would be great for the AK cars around sydney.
  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
Still running around with both Pans raised which is 'Overkill' unless its a necessity and how come the Diesel 'behind'?
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

Still running around with both Pans raised which is 'Overkill' unless its a necessity and how come the Diesel 'behind'?
gordon_s1942
To run as a push - pull would be my thinking
  catchpoint Assistant Commissioner

Location: At the end of a loop
Still running around with both Pans raised which is 'Overkill' unless its a necessity and how come the Diesel 'behind'?
To run as a push - pull would be my thinking
theanimal
Perhaps it was / is a trial until a 2nd electric locomotive is available

I thought the whole reasoning for reactivating the 86  class / electric locomotive was to avoid diesels in the underground on work trains - willing to stand corrected.

Wonder where are all those bean counters who thought selling off these public owned assets was a good idea back then are now...

regards

Catchpoint
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
Wonder where are all those bean counters who thought selling off these public owned assets was a good idea back then are now...
catchpoint
Probably enjoying their government guaranteed defined benefit super scheme...
  fzr560 Chief Train Controller

Still running around with both Pans raised which is 'Overkill' unless its a necessity and how come the Diesel 'behind'?
gordon_s1942
A guess. In the configuration on the video, the 86 is in the way for rail unloading, so it is likely that they unloaded on the return trip, with the 86 leading a dead 81. The 81 along for insurance purposes. ie, if the 86 can't do the job, fire her up and get the hell outta there.
        In reference to the pantographs, what harm and what cost? I imagine after prolly five years, everybody would be happy with new rail in the underground and if 2 pantos were used to get it there, so be it.
  aussiealco Station Master

Location: Bathurst NSW
G'day,
With only one pan raised, the No Volt Relay can trip out when passing under section insulators and air gaps.
Yes, during the good ole days, only one pan per loco was permitted in the inner Metrop, due to the contact wire and catenary.
Friction on the contact wire by multiple pans could cause the overhead to drop.
Harking back to the Parramatta incident when some 46'ers shoved the contact down onto a stationary emu.
The NVR alarm was fairly regular when running through the inner Metrop, one or more units suffering the fault.
Two pans could be raised when working to the west of Penrith.
A NVR trip was definitely NOT desired while attempting to climb the Blue Mountains.
The train would stall.
Today, most overhead contact wire and catenary has been upgraded.
Steve.
  fzr560 Chief Train Controller

G'day,
With only one pan raised, the No Volt Relay can trip out when passing under section insulators and air gaps.
Yes, during the good ole days, only one pan per loco was permitted in the inner Metrop, due to the contact wire and catenary.
Friction on the contact wire by multiple pans could cause the overhead to drop.
Harking back to the Parramatta incident when some 46'ers shoved the contact down onto a stationary emu.
The NVR alarm was fairly regular when running through the inner Metrop, one or more units suffering the fault.
Two pans could be raised when working to the west of Penrith.
A NVR trip was definitely NOT desired while attempting to climb the Blue Mountains.
The train would stall.
Today, most overhead contact wire and catenary has been upgraded.
Steve.
aussiealco
Thanks for your detailed response, Steve. Going slightly off topic, I suspect that I've seen photos of  quad 86s with all pantos raised, on Illawarra Coal. Did a single raised panto limit the performance the 86's where the overhead was not an issue?
  c3526blue Deputy Commissioner

Location: in the cuckoos nest
Still running around with both Pans raised which is 'Overkill' unless its a necessity and how come the Diesel 'behind'?
gordon_s1942
….. in case of a blackout!  

Looks as though they are transporting replacement rails.

Happy relaying,

John
  Bevan Wall Deputy Commissioner

Still running around with both Pans raised which is 'Overkill' unless its a necessity and how come the Diesel 'behind'?
gordon_s1942
I think the 81 was there mainly to move the consist around in the unwired areas in Clyde. I'm not sure if the 86 ran around the train to lead it back from North Sydney in the early hours of this morning, or if it pushed the train back to Clyde with a crew up front in the 81 but the diesel shut down for the section through the underground.
BW
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
Like the Freight Corp stickers, would like to see a few more electrics re activated.
  catchpoint Assistant Commissioner

Location: At the end of a loop
Still running around with both Pans raised which is 'Overkill' unless its a necessity and how come the Diesel 'behind'?
I think the 81 was there mainly to move the consist around in the unwired areas in Clyde. I'm not sure if the 86 ran around the train to lead it back from North Sydney in the early hours of this morning, or if it pushed the train back to Clyde with a crew up front in the 81 but the diesel shut down for the section through the underground.
BW
Bevan Wall

Passing Clyde UP yard yesterday evening on 'The FISH' - 8606 was stabled just about opposite the PN office on the only wired siding left in the UP yard (which is the one closest to the running lines).

The 86 was at the DOWN or country end of the rail set wagons and as such, was at the opposite end of the train from what was seen in your video which seems to indicate that it may have runaround at Nth Sydney.

There was no 81 attached at the other end of the train or stabled on the same siding (although there were plenty about in the yard).

Regards,

Catchpoint
  Bevan Wall Deputy Commissioner

Still running around with both Pans raised which is 'Overkill' unless its a necessity and how come the Diesel 'behind'?
I think the 81 was there mainly to move the consist around in the unwired areas in Clyde. I'm not sure if the 86 ran around the train to lead it back from North Sydney in the early hours of this morning, or if it pushed the train back to Clyde with a crew up front in the 81 but the diesel shut down for the section through the underground.
BW

Passing Clyde UP yard yesterday evening on 'The FISH' - 8606 was stabled just about opposite the PN office on the only wired siding left in the UP yard (which is the one closest to the running lines).

The 86 was at the DOWN or country end of the rail set wagons and as such, was at the opposite end of the train from what was seen in your video which seems to indicate that it may have runaround at Nth Sydney.

There was no 81 attached at the other end of the train or stabled on the same siding (although there were plenty about in the yard).

Regards,

Catchpoint
catchpoint
I'm told that the 81 was left at Central, with 8606 running around at North Sydney. It then led the train back south, but doing so via the down as far as Central.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Someone posts a feel good video and within seconds the RP faithful turn it into another smeg fight about how they know so much better than the railways - without even checking their facts first Evil or Very Mad
  catchpoint Assistant Commissioner

Location: At the end of a loop
I'm told that the 81 was left at Central, with 8606 running around at North Sydney. It then led the train back south, but doing so via the down as far as Central.
Bevan Wall

Noted Bevan,

There is a good photo with an informative description of the working here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/raichase/45576430432/in/dateposted/

Regards,

Catchpoint
  aussiealco Station Master

Location: Bathurst NSW
G'day FZR560,
The Illawarra was the first to be upgraded with double contact wire, from my vintage memory.
That permitted raising both pans on the unit.
The Blue Mountains had double catenary, maintaining the single contact wire.
But, that reduced friction on the contact wire shoving it as it was more stable.
However, the MAXIMUM number of pans raised permitted anywhere on the network was 6.
So, when we went to quad units on coalies, only single plans per unit could be raised.
The No Volt Relay problem did occur, but thankfully not on the climb to Zig Zag.
The overhead supply is not affected by the number of pans per unit raised.
But, is definitely limited to the number of units in multiple and the motor combination there fore permitted.
Some of the substations on steep sections had increased line voltage to prevent pulling the power on slow heavy freights.
But, you could still exceed the limits and pull the power.
When ever the line volts dropped down around 1000, you were in jeopardy.
The substation would trip out at 900 - 950 volts.
An 8 car interurban was regarded as the equivalent of two electrics.
So, when following another train up the Hill, a power margin was imposed to prevent the two trains entering the same overhead section.
With quad units, climbing to Zig Zag we were only permitted Series (first gear) full field (no weakfields) and a max amperage of 900.
You had to remain above 11 kph or risk going back into resistance on one or more of the units.
Through the ten tunnels to Newnes Junction, only Series with four weakfields to a max of 900 amps.
Then from Newnes to Enfield, Series Parallel (second gear) full field (no weakies) to a max of 750 amps.
You multiply the number of traction motors in circuit by the traction amps displayed on the cab load meter to achieve the full amperage.
Three units in Series showing 600 amps on the gauge is drawing a total of 1800 amps from the substation.
Three units in Parallel showing 700 amps on the gauge is attempting to draw a total of 6300 amps.
Series, all motors in circuit; Series Parallel, two banks of three motors; Parallel, three banks of two motors.
Metrop substations were generally set for a max of 4000 amps, while Mountains substations set for a max of 5000 amps.
And when going downhill, the max regen permitted was 2100 amps.
With coalies increased to 3300 tonne, the units were over the load on the climb to Zig Zag.
85/86 class load for Zig Zag 765 tonne per unit.
During winter time, it was a definite struggle.
The 85 class were slightly different to the 86'ers in that the 86'ers would automatically reduce amperage when traction motor overheat was happening.
The 85 class would just shut down and you had to wait for them to cool down and then fire them back up.
So, in multiple, the 85 class had to lead an 86 class so that the driver could notice when traction motor over amperage was gong to occur.
Another unsavory facet of having all pans raised, was during winter time.
Overhead arcing would occur regularly due to ice and water on the contact wire.
Not good during night time.
With only rear pans raised, you didn't cop the arcing flash in the cab.
I got carried away there with nostalgia.
I did enjoy working the electrics.
Steve.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Still running around with both Pans raised which is 'Overkill' unless its a necessity and how come the Diesel 'behind'?
gordon_s1942
I never set foot in an 85 or 86, but the 46cl when hauling trains had both pans up, but only one when running light, or when double the front pans were down on both engines inside the Metro border areas.

Times and working change though as does the equipment and infrastructure that allows for different working conditions and operations.
  Just The Tip Junior Train Controller

Location: Danger zone
G'day FZR560,
The Illawarra was the first to be upgraded with double contact wire, from my vintage memory.
That permitted raising both pans on the unit.
The Blue Mountains had double catenary, maintaining the single contact wire.
But, that reduced friction on the contact wire shoving it as it was more stable.
However, the MAXIMUM number of pans raised permitted anywhere on the network was 6.
So, when we went to quad units on coalies, only single plans per unit could be raised.
The No Volt Relay problem did occur, but thankfully not on the climb to Zig Zag.
The overhead supply is not affected by the number of pans per unit raised.
But, is definitely limited to the number of units in multiple and the motor combination there fore permitted.
Some of the substations on steep sections had increased line voltage to prevent pulling the power on slow heavy freights.
But, you could still exceed the limits and pull the power.
When ever the line volts dropped down around 1000, you were in jeopardy.
The substation would trip out at 900 - 950 volts.
An 8 car interurban was regarded as the equivalent of two electrics.
So, when following another train up the Hill, a power margin was imposed to prevent the two trains entering the same overhead section.
With quad units, climbing to Zig Zag we were only permitted Series (first gear) full field (no weakfields) and a max amperage of 900.
You had to remain above 11 kph or risk going back into resistance on one or more of the units.
Through the ten tunnels to Newnes Junction, only Series with four weakfields to a max of 900 amps.
Then from Newnes to Enfield, Series Parallel (second gear) full field (no weakies) to a max of 750 amps.
You multiply the number of traction motors in circuit by the traction amps displayed on the cab load meter to achieve the full amperage.
Three units in Series showing 600 amps on the gauge is drawing a total of 1800 amps from the substation.
Three units in Parallel showing 700 amps on the gauge is attempting to draw a total of 6300 amps.
Series, all motors in circuit; Series Parallel, two banks of three motors; Parallel, three banks of two motors.
Metrop substations were generally set for a max of 4000 amps, while Mountains substations set for a max of 5000 amps.
And when going downhill, the max regen permitted was 2100 amps.
With coalies increased to 3300 tonne, the units were over the load on the climb to Zig Zag.
85/86 class load for Zig Zag 765 tonne per unit.
During winter time, it was a definite struggle.
The 85 class were slightly different to the 86'ers in that the 86'ers would automatically reduce amperage when traction motor overheat was happening.
The 85 class would just shut down and you had to wait for them to cool down and then fire them back up.
So, in multiple, the 85 class had to lead an 86 class so that the driver could notice when traction motor over amperage was gong to occur.
Another unsavory facet of having all pans raised, was during winter time.
Overhead arcing would occur regularly due to ice and water on the contact wire.
Not good during night time.
With only rear pans raised, you didn't cop the arcing flash in the cab.
I got carried away there with nostalgia.
I did enjoy working the electrics.
Steve.
aussiealco
This is one of the best posts on Railpage this year. Maybe longer? Thanks for the informative recollection.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I'd have to look at my old notes but if memory serves me correctly 86s were good for 800T/unit on 1 in 40 grades .
Zig Zag is different because of the tight reverse curves and poor rail conditions . We often had 2 86s up there on coalies with 2 more banking out of Lithgow , also Lithgow valley was famous for frost or drizzle which didn't help .  
I think I remember the high load areas having twin contact wires , reason being less resistance and heat with big demands like 4 units on the 31 hopper coal trains .
Sometimes overnight some brave individuals used to run up Como with 3 of their 4 86s in parallel and both pans up . The 4th unit had both pans down . It had to be dry of course .
  aussiealco Station Master

Location: Bathurst NSW
G'day,
I made a memory mistake in my posting.
I should have said Resistance Overheat, the 85 class possessing a Thermal Overheat Device.
It prevents powering when it trips out due to resistance overheat, and can take up to 15 minutes to cool down to be reset.
The 86 class have the TM 800 amp warning lamp.
When ever, an 86er exceeds 800 amps for a period, I think it was 8 or 9 minutes duration, that lamp would illuminate.
You simply pressed the acknowledgement button, but did not need to reduce power.
But, for the 85 class, I think that you had to be more vigilant with the maximum TM motor amps displayed on the gauge.
It has been a gooldy 17 years since I was last on an 85 class, and about 16 years for the 86 class.
I am also pondering that the 85 class did not have the backward transition button as did the 86 class.
On an 86er you could thump that button to transition back from Parallel to Series Parallel motor combination.
I am thinking that you had to shutoff the master controller on the 85 class and then go up to Series Parallel.
The button did not work to go from Series Parallel down to Series, you had to shut off for that and re-engage Series.
That button may have been another reason that an 85 had to lead an 86'er when multipled.
I have now also recollected that with the loco hauled Red Sets (interurbans), we had both pans up on the single loco for the entire trip.
Both pans up within the inner metrop to avoid the NVR tripping out.
If the loco suddenly stopped powering, the train and "cattle" would run into it.
But, for multiple units within the inner metrop, only the one pan was raised.
It is sad that privatization saw the end of electric traction for freight.
But, unfortunately, the modern day freight train exceeds the abilities of our once magnificent electric loco fleet.
Plus, the 1500 volt DC overhead supply system.
Steve.
  fzr560 Chief Train Controller

G'day FZR560,
The Illawarra was the first to be upgraded with double contact wire, from my vintage memory.
That permitted raising both pans on the unit.
The Blue Mountains had double catenary, maintaining the single contact wire.
But, that reduced friction on the contact wire shoving it as it was more stable.
However, the MAXIMUM number of pans raised permitted anywhere on the network was 6.
So, when we went to quad units on coalies, only single plans per unit could be raised.
The No Volt Relay problem did occur, but thankfully not on the climb to Zig Zag.
The overhead supply is not affected by the number of pans per unit raised.
But, is definitely limited to the number of units in multiple and the motor combination there fore permitted.
Some of the substations on steep sections had increased line voltage to prevent pulling the power on slow heavy freights.
But, you could still exceed the limits and pull the power.
When ever the line volts dropped down around 1000, you were in jeopardy.
The substation would trip out at 900 - 950 volts.
An 8 car interurban was regarded as the equivalent of two electrics.
So, when following another train up the Hill, a power margin was imposed to prevent the two trains entering the same overhead section.
With quad units, climbing to Zig Zag we were only permitted Series (first gear) full field (no weakfields) and a max amperage of 900.
You had to remain above 11 kph or risk going back into resistance on one or more of the units.
Through the ten tunnels to Newnes Junction, only Series with four weakfields to a max of 900 amps.
Then from Newnes to Enfield, Series Parallel (second gear) full field (no weakies) to a max of 750 amps.
You multiply the number of traction motors in circuit by the traction amps displayed on the cab load meter to achieve the full amperage.
Three units in Series showing 600 amps on the gauge is drawing a total of 1800 amps from the substation.
Three units in Parallel showing 700 amps on the gauge is attempting to draw a total of 6300 amps.
Series, all motors in circuit; Series Parallel, two banks of three motors; Parallel, three banks of two motors.
Metrop substations were generally set for a max of 4000 amps, while Mountains substations set for a max of 5000 amps.
And when going downhill, the max regen permitted was 2100 amps.
With coalies increased to 3300 tonne, the units were over the load on the climb to Zig Zag.
85/86 class load for Zig Zag 765 tonne per unit.
During winter time, it was a definite struggle.
The 85 class were slightly different to the 86'ers in that the 86'ers would automatically reduce amperage when traction motor overheat was happening.
The 85 class would just shut down and you had to wait for them to cool down and then fire them back up.
So, in multiple, the 85 class had to lead an 86 class so that the driver could notice when traction motor over amperage was gong to occur.
Another unsavory facet of having all pans raised, was during winter time.
Overhead arcing would occur regularly due to ice and water on the contact wire.
Not good during night time.
With only rear pans raised, you didn't cop the arcing flash in the cab.
I got carried away there with nostalgia.
I did enjoy working the electrics.
Steve.
This is one of the best posts on Railpage this year. Maybe longer? Thanks for the informative recollection.
Just The Tip
Yep. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. If I'm quiet, it's because I'm trying to understand.
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
Sounds like the 85/86 were both advances in technology beyond their day, they were both experimental full of Mitsubishi gear with plenty of cracked chassis talk.
  aussiealco Station Master

Location: Bathurst NSW
G'day,
The 86 class had severely cracked frames due to being over the load with the 3300 tonner coalies climbing to Zig Zag.
Many of the cab doors would not stay latched shut, such was the extend of the stretch cracks.
The 85 class didn't seem to suffer as badly, but got kyboshed a year earlier.
Both the 85 and 86 class COULD NOT do something that the Metro Vickers butter boxes (46 class) could.
Motor in regen.
With a light load train and on easy grades, you could set up the 46ers in Series Parallel regenerative brake when going down the first hill.
And, then when they got to the bottom of that hill, they would drop out of regen and commence powering.
LOOK MUM, no hands.
This was only possible in Series Parallel and Series motor combos, not in Parallel.
And, you could not get weakies, just full field.
So, it was slow.
But, was fun when you had the time and could just sit there and enjoy the scenery.
Them butter boxes were naturally manual relays, where as the 85 and 86 class have pilot motor driven cam shafts for notching out of resistance, plus weakies and regen.
You could only get into regen on them by shutting off power and engaging regen.
Plus, you could not go back into resistance after having notched out with 85's or 86'ers without shutting off power.
That is unless train speed got down below the full field maintaining speed.
The old butter boxes were hideous toward the end of their use by date.
So modified that no two units were fully identical.
But, they were fun to drive.
On a slow haul up a steep grade, while in resistance, you could reinstate a bank to reduce power to the traction motors if a wheel slip or spin occurred.
The 85 and 86er controller notching was;
Notch One, starting full resistance, and step down notch.
Notch Two, holding notch.
Notch Three, step up notch.
Notch Four, full field.
Weakfield zone of equivalent of 4 weakfields.
Notch Five, motor combination transition.
So, to get going in Series, take notch one, and then notch two and up to notch three to remove a bank of resistance.
Then back to notch Two until motor amps steadies.
Then up to Notch three to remove a further bank, and back to Notch two to hold.
This being repeated until sufficient amps would hold the train after the brakes were released.
Release the train brakes and then continue to slowly notch out of resistance.
If a wheel slip occurs, the go down to Notch One to reinstate a bank of resistance to stop the slipping and return to Notch Two.
Once all resistance is notched out, it was either 9 or 10 banks of resistance, I forget, go for weakies.
On a light load train on a light grade, you could simply whip the controller around into Notch Four and let it step out automatically.
Once train speed has increased to permit transition, around 20 kph to attempt Series Parallel and around 40 - 50 kph for Parallel, go into Notch Five and return to Notch 4.
Better fun than simply whipping a diesel throttle up through the notches to get it to move.
Steve.

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