Back to the Future with the X2000?

 

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  M636C Minister for Railways

News versus ABC Reporting....


https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/train-from-sydney-to-canberra-may-be-reduced-to-less-than-three-hours/news-story/6862034568f2658fa60b91e96fc23343


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-25/sydney-to-canberra-fast-train-corridor-focus-for-snowy-hydro/10425760

Will this be the same XPT Replacement that the Gladys govt has ordered?
ANR
And what was the relevance of the Sydney suburban train surfers?

The actual statements refer to "a new corridor", not to "new trains".
I guess News just went through their archives and up popped the X2000.

My rough estimate made some time ago was that the improvements will cost around a billion dollars to get the time down to three hours. There is no way they can do all the things promised with 4.2 billion. you aren't just realigning a couple of curves here.

The most likely and lowest cost option is to follow the High Speed study's route from Gunning to Canberra including bypassing the Cullerin range. This will avoid Queanbeyan completely, the biggest city in Barilaro's electorate. I can't see that being acceptable if the NSW Government is to pay for it....

Peter
  ANR Train Controller

So can the Queanbeyan connection to Canberra remain if the new line is built? This could be either as a branch line or as a terminal in its own right. In other words, Canberra becomes the second last stop.

There is not enough detail in these announcements. The media has to read between the lines. X2000s landing in White Bay may as well be UFO landings.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
So can the Queanbeyan connection to Canberra remain if the new line is built? This could be either as a branch line or as a terminal in its own right. In other words, Canberra becomes the second last stop.

There is not enough detail in these announcements. The media has to read between the lines. X2000s landing in White Bay may as well be UFO landings.
ANR
Why would you keep the track o Queanbeyan? No trains would use it? Maybe the ROW kept for future LR expansion or something.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

News versus ABC Reporting....


https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/train-from-sydney-to-canberra-may-be-reduced-to-less-than-three-hours/news-story/6862034568f2658fa60b91e96fc23343


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-25/sydney-to-canberra-fast-train-corridor-focus-for-snowy-hydro/10425760

Will this be the same XPT Replacement that the Gladys govt has ordered?
ANR

no and this isn't going to happen. The NSW Government is looking for a new alignment to remove all the bends but it isn't going to be vhst capable. As told to many many many of you on here. Passenger rail looses money hand over fist in Australia. It always has and always will. Any new line will need freight to make it viable.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Oh and this is more to do with macarthur to goulburn then it is goulburn to canberra. It also does not include the line to canberra airport vhst line.
  ANR Train Controller

Wasn't there going to be a new fast line connecting Canberra to Melbourne and to Sydney on a more direct route via Cooma or something like it? Whatever happened to that fantasy? I guess someone must have picked up a calculator....

Is there or will there ever be rail freight going to Canberra?

Surely the nation's capital needs a pax rail service. There are too many airport delays in Canberra from fog etc. We need some viable alternate way to get our politicians into Parliament to do important business for the nation, like rolling more PMs ....

Why not make it more viable by running tourist snow trains to Cooma in the winter...
  M636C Minister for Railways

Oh and this is more to do with macarthur to goulburn then it is goulburn to canberra. It also does not include the line to canberra airport vhst line.
simstrain
Looking at tonight's SP35 about to reach Queanbeyan as I start posting, it is allowed 4 hours 3 minutes.

Just under two hours (1 hour 58 minutes) was spent between Campbelltown and Goulburn.

To reduce this overall time to three hours by reducing the Goulburn to Campbelltown time only would involve a time of 55 minutes between Campbelltown and Goulburn, so pretty much doubling the speed on the main south.

That can't be done, even running on the alignment of the old loop line.

So substantial savings are needed between Goulburn and Canberra (and/or Sydney and Campbelltown)

These are just pre-election promises, rendered void by election.

Peter
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Oh and this is more to do with macarthur to goulburn then it is goulburn to canberra. It also does not include the line to canberra airport vhst line.
Looking at tonight's SP35 about to reach Queanbeyan as I start posting, it is allowed 4 hours 3 minutes.

Just under two hours (1 hour 58 minutes) was spent between Campbelltown and Goulburn.

To reduce this overall time to three hours by reducing the Goulburn to Campbelltown time only would involve a time of 55 minutes between Campbelltown and Goulburn, so pretty much doubling the speed on the main south.

That can't be done, even running on the alignment of the old loop line.

So substantial savings are needed between Goulburn and Canberra (and/or Sydney and Campbelltown)

These are just pre-election promises, rendered void by election.

Peter
M636C

I said new alignment and not using an old alignment. If a hume higway type alignment could be achieved then 1 hour is easy to remove between campbelltown and goulburn. For sure the track needs fixing between goulburn and canberra but it has no significant need for any re alignment.
  ANR Train Controller

So what of the tilt train? How much time could an x2000 or equivalent tilt service shave off the journey in the existing alignment run by explorers?
  M636C Minister for Railways

I said new alignment and not using an old alignment. If a hume higway type alignment could be achieved then 1 hour is easy to remove between campbelltown and goulburn. For sure the track needs fixing between goulburn and canberra but it has no significant need for any re alignment.

All the proposed alignments following the Hume Highway have much steeper gradients than could be used by freight trains.

Despite what you have said, such alignments are ONLY suitable for Very High Speed trains owing to the steep gradients.

One of the truly amazing things about the Federal Government VHST survey was that NO gradient profile was ever published. Despite all the money spent it was a completely amateur operation.

The distance between Canberra and Goulburn is substantially shorter (and slower) than the section between Campbelltown and Goulburn. It would be cheaper to reduce the time south of Goulburn than north of Goulburn.

I would be absolutely amazed if a serious realignment of the line around Picton was actually carried out.

When the Hume Highway was realigned, I recall that the deviation around Mittagong cost ten times as much as that around most other towns. That is the sort of country we are discussing. The government is talking about spending 4 billion dollars in the whole state on infrastructure.

The section around Picton to be bypassed is less than one fifth of the distance between Goulburn and Campbelltown. I doubt that an hour cold be saved on that section alone. And that would leave many of the sharp curves on the existing line which limit speeds.

I do not believe they would spend close to a billion on one rail line to reduce the travel time to a destination not in NSW.

Peter
  M636C Minister for Railways

So what of the tilt train? How much time could an x2000 or equivalent tilt service shave off the journey in the existing alignment run by explorers?
ANR
I rode the X2000 from Canberra to Moss Vale and returned on the regular Explorer service.

For the demonstration, all of the staff stations were manned which saved some time and on the main line the train was driven right up to the speed limit, with really heavy acceleration leaving the curves to get back up to speed quickly. I wasable to spend a few minutes in the X2000 can which was at the Sydney end and you could clearly see and hear the power cars thrittling up and down (as they approached curves). I think the train saved between half and one hour to Sydney on a slightly slower schedule than today. On the return, the Explorer, which was still new, was both quieter and smoother than the X2000, and of course benefited from the quick staff exchanges. I think we were 15 minutes early at Queanbeyan.

I think a tilting train, using the original Loop Line alignment could probably save half an hour between Campbelltown and Goulburn. If the train was dual system electric and diesel, it could run via the airport which would add some passengers. You might save another half hour south of Goulburn if track alignment was improved south of Crisp's Creek.

Peter
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

A few tidbits (which I hope I've got correct, some of it's from memory)

Hume Highway Deviation:
  • 36km from Douglas Park (69km marker) to Almyrton (124km marker) saves 19km (20km at a stretch)
  • Has 11 curves, min radius 2000m (vs 76 curves IIRC, mostly 400m radius, min radius 300m at Picton)
  • 1:50 ruling grade, with 2400m of 1:40 at Yananderra, ironically because of the rail bridges/overpasses

Loop Line:
  • 125km vs 131km at MJittagong Jtn 6km saving.
  • The pre-1890 alignment between at Hilltop and Colo Vale would save ~1000m more.
  • ~40 curves, min radius 320m (at Picton).
  • Min radius essentiialy 600m Picton to Colovale, (the tunnel approahces), but most curves 800m or broader.
  • At least 6 level crossings
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

A few tidbits (which I hope I've got correct, some of it's from memory)

Hume Highway Deviation:

Loop Line:
djf01

Route & Fleet Comparison:

Current vs Loop Line:

Current Fleet:
Current route: 46km @ 80kph = 35min
Hilltop route: 40km @ 100kph = 24min

Tilting Fleet:
Current route: 46km @ 90kph = 31min
Hilltop route: 40km @ 110kph = 22min

Current vs Hume Hwy:
Current Fleet:
Current route: 55km @ 80kph = 41min
Hume route:  36km @ 120kph = 18min

Tilting Fleet:
Current route: 55km @ 90kph = 37min  (35min at 95kph)
Hume route:  36km @ 160kph = 14min  (11min at 200kph)
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

what is the difference in kilometres for an entire hume alignment between macarthur and goulburn and not just the section from picton to mittagong?
  M636C Minister for Railways

what is the difference in kilometres for an entire hume alignment between macarthur and goulburn and not just the section from picton to mittagong?
simstrain
You could go to:

https://infrastructure.gov.au/rail/publications/high-speed-rail-study-reports/corridor/

and work it out yourself. Section SM1 is relevant.

In many places the tracks are side by side, with the difference being the sharp curvature on the current line.

However, there isn't enough money in the Commonwealth purchase of the Snowy Scheme to pay for a direct line. We could expect less than one billion dollars for rail throughout NSW, and less than half of that for the south. The best you could expect is some strategic upgrades at critical points.

I don't think we can expect freight trains to use a line with ruling grades as steep as 1 in 50, with 1 in 66 or 1 in 75 being the current standard. This is one of the conflicts between passenger and freight traffic.

Peter
  M636C Minister for Railways

A few tidbits (which I hope I've got correct, some of it's from memory)

Hume Highway Deviation:

Loop Line:

Route & Fleet Comparison:

Current vs Loop Line:

Current Fleet:
Current route: 46km @ 80kph = 35min
Hilltop route: 40km @ 100kph = 24min

Tilting Fleet:
Current route: 46km @ 90kph = 31min
Hilltop route: 40km @ 110kph = 22min

Current vs Hume Hwy:
Current Fleet:
Current route: 55km @ 80kph = 41min
Hume route:  36km @ 120kph = 18min

Tilting Fleet:
Current route: 55km @ 90kph = 37min  (35min at 95kph)
Hume route:  36km @ 160kph = 14min  (11min at 200kph)
djf01
Explorers are permitted to run at 145 km/h and have shown up on 4Trak at higher speeds.

Peter
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

what is the difference in kilometres for an entire hume alignment between macarthur and goulburn and not just the section from picton to mittagong?
simstrain

Based on this: (This)

I make the nearest point on the Southern Line at Almyrton at 125km, The Marulan overpass @ 193km (68km by rail, 60km by road) and the Sth Goulburn overpass at 227km (102km by rail, 92km by road).  Marulan -> Sth Goulburn (@ Hume hwy overpass) is 34km by rail and 32km by road.
  GeoffreyHansen Minister for Railways

Location: In a FAM sleeper
Could there be a way of creating a faster alignment between Goulburn and Canberra that could later be incorporated into a high speed line. Australia does need a good rail link into it's national capital.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Could there be a way of creating a faster alignment between Goulburn and Canberra that could later be incorporated into a high speed line. Australia does need a good rail link into it's national capital.
GeoffreyHansen
Go to:

https://infrastructure.gov.au/rail/publications/high-speed-rail-study-reports/corridor/sm23/goulburn_yass.aspx

Maps 1 to 11 show Goulburn to Yass (sort of) the following maps show a route to Canberra

If you ignore the station in the 3.6km tunnel and just terminate the line as the airport, things would be simpler.

This line built as single track modified to link with the main line at Joppa Junction would save an hour on current journey times.

If the south line section was continued to about Jerrawa where the new line crosses the old near Chain of Ponds Road, I'd estimate a saving of 30 minutes for XPT trains. The night XPTs could call at Canberra and not lose much on their current schedule.

Peter
  ANR Train Controller

Big on promises, light on detail. That x2000 pic keeps popping up.

So the journey time will be reduced to less than 3 hours. How? Will the wheels be rubberised?

https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/train-from-sydney-to-canberra-may-be-reduced-to-less-than-three-hours/news-story/6862034568f2658fa60b91e96fc23343

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