Can a train legally travel in an Electric staff section with out an electric staff?

 
  david harvey Station Staff

Location: Eastern Victoria
If there is an ordinary electric staff section and the train normally takes an electric staff to travel the section ,legally how can a train enter that section WITHOUT an electric staff ?

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  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
To my limited knowledge NO.

There is (was?) provision for whatever safeworking system is/was in force to be suspended upon the authority of, I think, the Chief Traffic Manager. Obviously, this suspension would only apply in extreme circumstances and under the control of competent people.

I am not sure that this covers what you are specifically looking for in the event that the 'staff has gone bush' when, perhaps, Pilotman working would have been introduced.

Any such arrangement is, of course, much easier to introduce when you have trained, competent and experienced staff available.

Must see if I can find my old (1919) Rule Book one day.
  hbedriver Train Controller

Near the end of ESW on the Greensborough - Eltham section, the equipment was prone to failures. We ran Train Authority for a while. Train Authority's are issued by the Train Controller and were deliberately cumbersome, with several people involved before a train could be despatched. We feared they might close ES prematurely, but they found a signal technician who knew his stuff (fault was in the interface with Telstra; by then they were using public phone lines instead of railway, and the equipment that translated bell codes and pulses into digital format then back into bells and pulses at the opposite end had failed). Of course, original ES simply used internal wires and was designed around the old constraints; the tricky thing had been to use modern wires for pre-digital things.

The Greensborough - Eltham section had 7 minutes running time, and they were running 6 trains hourly most of the day (average 1 train every 10 minutes). Not much time to do paperwork!
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
If there is an ordinary electric staff section and the train normally takes an electric staff to travel the section ,legally how can a train enter that section WITHOUT an electric staff ?
david harvey
In NSW, you are issued a Special Proceed Authority - a paper-based form that is able to be used in a multitude of situations when the normal proceed authority (Signal/MES/Train Order) cannot be provided.

No big deal, most Driver's carry a supply of the forms and they are usually carried on each loco too. I've done it myself dozens of times. The trap for Driver's is making sure you know when you require a SPA vs Signallers Verbal Authority. In MES sections, it's easy, no staff = SPA, but in RVD it can be a bit trickier.
  aussiealco Station Master

Location: Bathurst NSW
G'day,
The original emergency paperwork for a failed ETS instrument was the Proceed Order.
SWF S4.134
No less than four forms had to be compiled to obtain the Proceed Order.
The Request for the Issue of a Proceed Order, SWF S4.131; The subsequent Authority to issue a Proceed Order, SWF S4.132
Message from Station to which a train is to proceed; SWF S4.133, and the ultimate Proceed Order.
Thankfully, I never had to work under an ETS Proceed Order.
Getting one issued was apparently like getting Rule 307 working instituted.
The SAO; Special Authority Order, and subsequently the SPA (currently still in use) Special Proceed Authority being utilized after the demise of the original Proceed Order.
I have travelled on both the SAO (but no cracker biscuits provided) and SPA under emergency working.
There was also a Pilot Working form, SWF P1.130 for ETS.
The Pilotman travelling with the train in lieu of the ETS due to instrument failure.
I never worked under that paperwork either.
The Train Failure Order (short lived and most arduous in compilation) was also an order to be avoided if possible.
Steve.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I think it was from around January 1990 that the safeworking changed and that Section Orders and Train Failure Orders were brought in to be used for all/most systems in use .
Before this I think SO and TFO were developed for what was originally called CTC (Centralised Traffic Control) , and the Bi Directional system on double lines .
  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
The old means of running a Train or LE without the Token for the section was very reliant on there being available Staff (employee's) to introduce Pilot working.
The whole system was slow in implementing but once in place, it was as good as ES.

Over time not only did they reduce the Staff numbers but many sections increased in distance as well.

At one time the instructions stated that the Pilotman 'Had to be known to the Introducing Officer' at each end of the section.
Yet at the same time, the instructions also stated that 'ANYBODY', even somebody off the Street could be engaged as a Pilotman !!!

Remember a Train/LE can only travel in ONE direction when on ANY type of token but were allowed to return to a Distant or Landmark ONLY in the event of an emergency.
Some places had the provision for shunting moves to be made OUTSIDE the Home Signal when a Train/LE was traveling AWAY from that location.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

I think it was from around January 1990 that the safeworking changed and that Section Orders and Train Failure Orders were brought in to be used for all/most systems in use .
Before this I think SO and TFO were developed for what was originally called CTC (Centralised Traffic Control) , and the Bi Directional system on double lines .
BDA
Ah yes, in NSW I assume, Circular 200 in the yellow covers.
  neillfarmer Train Controller

Once upon a time NSWGR had a system of Staff and Ticket working. This system entailed the first train driver sighting the staff for the section and departing on the authority of a ticket. The second train carried the staff. There were set intervals separating the departures depending on the type of trains. Goods trains were not allowed to precede passenger trains. An example of the interval is that a goods or mixed train could follow a passenger train after an interval of 10 minutes in daylight or 20 minutes at night. It was possible for more than two trains to run on a ticket ahead of the train carrying the staff.
I don't know when this system was withdrawn.
Neill Farmer
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Agreed that there could theoretically be any number of Tickets issued.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I think it was from around January 1990 that the safeworking changed and that Section Orders and Train Failure Orders were brought in to be used for all/most systems in use .
Before this I think SO and TFO were developed for what was originally called CTC (Centralised Traffic Control) , and the Bi Directional system on double lines .
Ah yes, in NSW I assume, Circular 200 in the yellow covers
theanimal
From memory Circular 200 lasted about 2 weeks and was changed to the smaller yellow book called Circular 200 Special .
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
Once upon a time NSWGR had a system of Staff and Ticket working. This system entailed the first train driver sighting the staff for the section and departing on the authority of a ticket. The second train carried the staff. There were set intervals separating the departures depending on the type of trains. Goods trains were not allowed to precede passenger trains. An example of the interval is that a goods or mixed train could follow a passenger train after an interval of 10 minutes in daylight or 20 minutes at night. It was possible for more than two trains to run on a ticket ahead of the train carrying the staff.
I don't know when this system was withdrawn.
Neill Farmer
neillfarmer
I was using Ordinary Train Staff and Ticket in the northwest in 2006, and on the Pelton line in 2010. The time-based rules for trains no longer applied though. You can still utilise ticket's under Pilot Staff Working to this day.
  GrahamH Chief Commissioner

Location: At a terminal on the www.
Once upon a time NSWGR had a system of Staff and Ticket working. This system entailed the first train driver sighting the staff for the section and departing on the authority of a ticket. The second train carried the staff. There were set intervals separating the departures depending on the type of trains. Goods trains were not allowed to precede passenger trains. An example of the interval is that a goods or mixed train could follow a passenger train after an interval of 10 minutes in daylight or 20 minutes at night. It was possible for more than two trains to run on a ticket ahead of the train carrying the staff.
I don't know when this system was withdrawn.
Neill Farmer
I was using Ordinary Train Staff and Ticket in the northwest in 2006, and on the Pelton line in 2010. The time-based rules for trains no longer applied though. You can still utilise ticket's under Pilot Staff Working to this day.
KRviator
So for example this could be used to operate under if a run is due to start but comms is lost in the JH train order system?
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
I was using Ordinary Train Staff and Ticket in the northwest in 2006, and on the Pelton line in 2010. The time-based rules for trains no longer applied though. You can still utilise ticket's under Pilot Staff Working to this day.
So for example this could be used to operate under if a run is due to start but comms is lost in the JH train order system?
GrahamH
In your example, it'd be more likely the train controller would issue a SPA. I can't recall being issued one in Train Order territory though in saying that, I probably took two or three dozen orders before transferring to Newcastle. I'm not sure if the Controller can issue an order over the commercial mobile network in terms of recording calls etc but if possible, that would be the next option.

PSW is usually, though not always, associated with worksites and planned possessions, etc. The reason for this is, in RVD territory, you'll find half-staff's at either end of the relevant section and when they are screwed together, they become the 'full' Pilot Staff.

For operations in other safeworking systems (TO is really the only other system these days though), you have actual large pilot staffs, but these are not readily available, they need to be taken to site by an ARTC representative before use.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

I think the logistics would be against implementing staff and ticket working to say replace in the short term Train Orders.

If you have no communications to issue the TO them it would seem to be fair to say you would have no communications for Staff and ticket.

Where would the supply of Staffs and tickets come from?

Where would they be secured when not in use, When S & T  work was in practice, then at either end of the section, there was a signal box of a staff hut, none of that infrastructure now exists.

As KR says above, a SPA would seem to be the default position, however the lack of comms would be your stumbling block.
  jm1941 Chief Commissioner

Location: Mount Gambier
If there is an ordinary electric staff section and the train normally takes an electric staff to travel the section ,legally how can a train enter that section WITHOUT an electric staff ?
david harvey
I worked with Electric staff working many years when at Jamestown and at Mt Gambier (both on S.A.Railways).
At very odd occasions the staff instrument would fail by not allowing a staff(s) to be withdrawn from the instrument.
Train Control would then institute "Train Order working" between the stations affected by that staff failure.  
The Train Order once issued had to be repeated back to the train controller.  Station names, Train numbers and Engine numbers on that order must be spelt out. This be exactly the same setup as being on any Train Order Territory.

I might add here that normally on Electric Staff Territory where one often had to take train orders for normal train working crossing purposes etc. These Train Orders were only repeated back to the Train Controller, nothing was spelt out as the electric staff was the authority to enter the section, not the Train Order.

jm1941
  david harvey Station Staff

Location: Eastern Victoria
The question clearly states " travel in an electric staff section with out an electric staff ".
I am surprised that the victorian crowd hasn't stated the most obvious which would be Ticket A or Ticket B of a composite staff
or a even Bank Engine Key. Someone did touch on this one, a train has left a staff station with the electric staff and has passed the distant signal and is processing on its journey and providing that it isn't foggy weather ,shunting can take place on that main line with that train travelling away from that staff station. Shunting moves can take place out side the home signal but not out of sight of the signalman or beyond the distant.When the train arrival signal is given for the train with the staff  it must be acknowledged but line clear signal must not be given to a train to come to the shunting  station until the line is clear . If shunting is to continue the signal man at the shunting station must sent to the other signal man the Blocking Back signal (2-4) which will be acknowledged  and when shunting is complete the train arrival signal (3 bells) will be sent indicating the the line is clear. A staff doesn't have to be withdrawn for this procedure.Victorian Railway Electric Staff Rule 15 Fouling the line for station work.
  I appreciate the information about the newer safe working systems as I dont know it all and is hard to keep up with every thing

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