Suburban Rail Loop (Election promise)

 
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
And I would like to add using words like "Stupid "in this discussion is disrespectful and counterproductive . It does nothing to add to the discussion

Add “foam” to that. There’s been a lot of evidence and rational argument for both sides in this thread and it would be a pity for it to devolve to name-calling.
potatoinmymouth

Half of you new guys won't have read ZH's blunt posts.

ZH has been in hibernation for the past year or so and is NOT given to niceties in his/her posts.

On past form, ZH will probably go back into hibernation soon.

Mike.

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  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

This information is not hard to obtain, and I have deliberately chosen not to post it in this thread to give all these buzzword spilling frothy types enough rope to hang themselves with.
ZH836301

You mean like the three sources I just provided in support of my position?

Sorry, Mike, this is ZH being “blunt”, it’s being obtuse.

Look at my posts again, supporting the need and justification for this project.
  stooge spark Train Controller

"Journey to Work census data clearly indicates most live relatively close to their place of employment"
If that is the case then why do we have a rail system at all? We should close it down because most can just walk to their employment.
  stooge spark Train Controller

And I would like to add using words like "Stupid "in this discussion is disrespectful and counterproductive . It does nothing to add to the discussion

Add “foam” to that. There’s been a lot of evidence and rational argument for both sides in this thread and it would be a pity for it to devolve to name-calling.

Half of you new guys won't have read ZH's blunt posts.

ZH has been in hibernation for the past year or so and is NOT given to niceties in his/her posts.

On past form, ZH will probably go back into hibernation soon.

Mike.
The Vinelander
It's a shame he does this Hibernation thing, his probably the most entertaining person in the forum.
  g00r Station Master

Where Melbourne sparks in the past were relatively empty during the off-peak, nowadays its common for most trains to be carrying a decent load throughout most of the day.
Unless you're completely consumed by a book/device, then you notice that people are constantly boarded/departing at stations along the way, compared to V/Line trains i.e. Geelong where 90% board at regional stations then get off at SCS.
So, if people are constantly getting on/off on UP/DOWN trains and are not all getting off in the city, then what's to say that they there isn't to be equal demand for.. Side/Side stations as well?

I.e. Clayton station: Westal or Huntingdale -  3 mins
Clayton to Cheltenham:  min 46 mins by public transport

So even if people do all work locally, it doesn't mean that their home and work is based on the UP/DOWN of existing rail track.

Then we factor in the airport...  Clayton to Broadie is ~34 kms by rail, 28 stops and 1hr 08 mins (although granted you're not yet at the airport).  With the SRL it's roughly a 44 km trip but only 10 stops.
You're now getting to where you're going quicker and you're freeing up capacity on two other services.

Disclaimer:  Clayton was the first station I picked.. It wasn't cherry-picked for the 'best argument'
  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner

Why are you and another poster who I will not mention clearly opposed to this revolutionary concept that will change the way Melbourians commute. First of all, orbital connectivity is non existent in Melbourne, you have to travel to the city to connect with another line. All of the best rail systems in the world: London, Tokyo, Athens, Stockholm, Moscow, they all have orbital connectivity and connect commuters to different areas in quick time.

Michaels, busses are under-utilised but to say that they would cater for what the SRL will do is ridiculous. Priority and more services would not cover the demand that the SRL does. To say that nobody would use it is ridiculous. Here are some examples of trips that would occur with a SRL.

Train from Ringwood to Box Hill- SRL To Monash
Train from Coburg to Fawkner - SRL To Bundoora
Train from Mordialloc to Cheltenham - SRL To Airport
Train from Eltham to Heidelberg - SRL To Werribee

Busses would not do the same for orbital travel, period. And fantasy now, come on: the Project is rough and that’s why a business case is being done, to fill the gaps in the project, nothing is concrete. Roads cannot keep getting built tell me now that we need the East West Link and intersection Removals now, come on.
ptvcommuter
You have no idea that the demand is there, no one does. A proper business case has not been done on this so I am still looking at this is a thought fantasy bubble to buy votes. You take a different view and that's fine, I do not share it and I do not see it as a priority especially when our existing system is crap.

As regards to Buses, the point I am making that you seem to have supreme confidence about our ability to construct a $50 Billion plus line when we cannot even get a functioning Bus Network. PT should be about all nodes not just rail lines on a map.

London does not not have a suburban loop in the scale of which Melbourne is envisaging. Indeed the new lines being built are East - West (Crossrail) and North - South (Thameslink). Even the London Overground is essential East - West lines on both sides of the Thames.

Because I am opposed to this project does not make someone who is pro road, so I do not know why you are making that particular point.  

Michael
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Still no response to the evidence I’ve presented, Michael?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
This information is not hard to obtain, and I have deliberately chosen not to post it in this thread to give all these buzzword spilling frothy types enough rope to hang themselves with.

You mean like the three sources I just provided in support of my position?

Sorry, Mike, this is ZH being “blunt”, it’s being obtuse.

Look at my posts again, supporting the need and justification for this project.
potatoinmymouth

I don't comment much about what isn't relevant to my 'patch'.

However as you and I don't see eye to eye on everything, ZH doesn't appear to see eye to eye to many posters in general. You may not be aware PIMM there are some topics you would be in furious agreement with ZH about, however the condescending opinions do turn many off reading and analysing the informative if obtuse posts.

Mike.
  kitchgp Assistant Commissioner

Hopefully some (if not all) of the $300 million will be spent on a replacement for the misnomer 'Loop'.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

However as you and I don't see eye to eye on everything, ZH doesn't appear to see eye to eye to many posters in general. You may not be aware PIMM there are some topics you would be in furious agreement with ZH about, however the condescending opinions do turn many off reading and analysing the informative if obtuse posts.
The Vinelander

Fair enough Mike. I guess I just enjoy informative argument more than I do grumpy cynicism and name-calling.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Half of you new guys won't have read ZH's blunt posts.

ZH has been in hibernation for the past year or so and is NOT given to niceties in his/her posts.

On past form, ZH will probably go back into hibernation soon.

Mike.
It's a shame he does this Hibernation thing, his probably the most entertaining person in the forum.
stooge spark
Agreed, we've missed you ZedAitch, the place just isn't the same without you Laughing

BG
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner


What contortions of logic can you guys come up with?
ZH836301


Challenge accepted! Smile (Great resources btw.)

I’m not sure exactly what point you were trying to make, but, if anything, those pages show the case for the SRL is probably stronger than the case for upgrading the radial routes to the CBD.

Of Monash residents: 23,309 work in the CBD; 5,295 work in Greater Dandenong, 4,144 work in Whitehorse, 3,893 in Stonnington and 3,820 in Kingston, making 17,152 in LGAs where the journey to work is improved by the SRL.

Of Casey residents: 36,134 work in Greater Dandenong or the CBD. 11,650 work in Monash, 8,067 in Kingston, and 2,644 work in Whitehorse, making a total of 22,361 journeys potentially improved by the SRL.

Of Frankston residents: 6, 311 work in Kingston, 3,670 in Melbourne and 865 in Glen Eira, making 10,846 along the Frankston line; 7,069 work in Greater Dandenong, 3,360 in Monash and 3,281 in Casey, making  13,710 journeys potentially improved by the SRL.

So, in the LGAs you drew attention to, there are roughly 70,000 radial work trips and 52,000 radial journeys, if the SRL opened today.  

Bearing in mind that CBD employment is close to saturated, the potential for the SRL to grow the job market in these middle suburbs by improving accessibility from nearby residential areas seems fairly obvious. In the long run, therefore, it’s fairly clear that SRL patronage has the potential to grow well past that of the radial routes. I’m sure the pattern would be repeated in LGAs like Whitehorse.
  justarider Train Controller


What contortions of logic can you guys come up with?

Challenge accepted! Smile (Great resources btw.)

I’m not sure exactly what point you were trying to make, but, if anything, those pages show the case for the SRL is probably stronger than the case for upgrading the radial routes to the CBD.

Of Monash residents: 23,309 work in the CBD; 5,295 work in Greater Dandenong, 4,144 work in Whitehorse, 3,893 in Stonnington and 3,820 in Kingston, making 17,152 in LGAs where the journey to work is improved by the SRL.

Of Casey residents: 36,134 work in Greater Dandenong or the CBD. 11,650 work in Monash, 8,067 in Kingston, and 2,644 work in Whitehorse, making a total of 22,361 journeys potentially improved by the SRL.

Of Frankston residents: 6, 311 work in Kingston, 3,670 in Melbourne and 865 in Glen Eira, making 10,846 along the Frankston line; 7,069 work in Greater Dandenong, 3,360 in Monash and 3,281 in Casey, making  13,710 journeys potentially improved by the SRL.

So, in the LGAs you drew attention to, there are roughly 70,000 radial work trips and 52,000 radial journeys, if the SRL opened today.  

Bearing in mind that CBD employment is close to saturated, the potential for the SRL to grow the job market in these middle suburbs by improving accessibility from nearby residential areas seems fairly obvious. In the long run, therefore, it’s fairly clear that SRL patronage has the potential to grow well past that of the radial routes. I’m sure the pattern would be repeated in LGAs like Whitehorse.
potatoinmymouth
good start PIMM
I was impressed by ZH selective use of 2 zones well outside the SRL, yet still the customer potential is there.

An interesting aside how many travel from Frankston(141) or Monash(369) to Hume (Airport) for work.
That's a long way each day.

I will also point out that journey to work is only 26% of all daily travel in Melbourne,
The other 74% also need to be considered.

https://transport.vic.gov.au/-/media/tfv-documents/vista/vista-2013-travel-in-metropolitan-melbourne-pdf.pdf?la=en&hash=449D8E69EBAC5E7C1485A5DA73B22493

Work reasons are the longest distance overall."The average work journey is 17km long and takes 44 minutes".
That doesn't sound like working in local/adjacent. CBD travel(24%) skews it a bit,  but 74% do not go to CBD


Education is another big reason (10%). TAFE/Uni student especially use PT when they can. An average travel distance of 19km. Definitely a catchment for SRL

let the battle of numbers continue.

cheers
John
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
I’m not sure exactly what point you were trying to make, but, if anything, those pages show the case for the SRL is probably stronger than the case for upgrading the radial routes to the CBD.
potatoinmymouth
Primarily we see that journeys to work are relatively short, as an example for Monash:

Monash > Monash: 29%
Monash > Adjacent council: 32%
Monash > CoM/Yarra/Port Phillip: 24%

Given 3.4% had no fixed address at Census, only ~10% of work trips for Monash were long, cross-suburban journeys.  One should also remember that residents close to the border of a municipality are more likely to work in the adjacent municipality than those at the centre.  

Of Monash residents: 23,309 work in the CBD; 5,295 work in Greater Dandenong, 4,144 work in Whitehorse, 3,893 in Stonnington and 3,820 in Kingston, making 17,152 in LGAs where the journey to work is improved by the SRL.

Of Casey residents: 36,134 work in Greater Dandenong or the CBD. 11,650 work in Monash, 8,067 in Kingston, and 2,644 work in Whitehorse, making a total of 22,361 journeys potentially improved by the SRL.

Of Frankston residents: 6, 311 work in Kingston, 3,670 in Melbourne and 865 in Glen Eira, making 10,846 along the Frankston line; 7,069 work in Greater Dandenong, 3,360 in Monash and 3,281 in Casey, making  13,710 journeys potentially improved by the SRL.

So, in the LGAs you drew attention to, there are roughly 70,000 radial work trips and 52,000 radial journeys, if the SRL opened today.
potatoinmymouth
And as expected, quite the contortion - you can't just claim a loop would help every suburban work journey.

I will also point out that journey to work is only 26% of all daily travel in Melbourne,
The other 74% also need to be considered.
justarider
Such trips are on average shorter, or more time-flexible.

Work reasons are the longest distance overall."The average work journey is 17km long and takes 44 minutes".
That doesn't sound like working in local/adjacent. CBD travel(24%) skews it a bit,  but 74% do not go to CBD
justarider
Work to Journey data is more relevant, as it is not skewed by long distance travel to the city centre.

Spending the budget of this proposal on a direct, high-frequency, grid bus service would achieve far higher gains in modal share.
  stooge spark Train Controller

I'd like to point out that Monash residents would still benefit from the SRL
Lots of people in Monash, work in monash, which would get 3 stations under the proposal, GW, Monash uni, and Clayton
As well as this adjacent councils include Whitehorse and Kingston, both of which would get SRL stations and would potentially help people commuting to those areas.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

Is there any reason why the SRL couldn't be a monorail?
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Is there any reason why the SRL couldn't be a monorail?
John.Z
Practicality and cost of being a monorail when compared to being a regular BG suburban line (under and above ground), best to keep the Metropolitan rail system interconnected in my view.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner



https://youtu.be/ZDOI0cq6GZM
Monorails offer no technical advantages over conventional metro/heavy rail systems, and are massively more costly because of the lack of proven “off-the-shelf” technology.

There is a reason they have not taken off anywhere as a major form of mass transit. Two wheels on steel hasn’t been beaten yet.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Monorail would make more sense for the joke proposal that this is.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

Monorail would make more sense for the joke proposal that this is.
ZH836301
If anything, building anything "skyrail" should per km be cheaper than a tunnel. Not sure why they've gone straight to tunnels and driven up the price from day dot.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

If anything, building anything "skyrail" should per km be cheaper than a tunnel. Not sure why they've gone straight to tunnels and driven up the price from day dot.
John.Z

Because David Davis would have exploded, and it would have been terribly difficult to get him out of the Parliamentary carpet.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
If anything, building anything "skyrail" should per km be cheaper than a tunnel. Not sure why they've gone straight to tunnels and driven up the price from day dot.
John.Z
The way they've got it, curving across the suburban mile by mile grid, in most parts elevated would be impossible.
  John E Beginner

Skyrail would be cheaper than tunnelling but likely only if the Skyrail is in long stretches e.g. > 3km. It's probably only the western section where this could be done. Tunnel entrances can be very expensive. Correct me if im wrong but im pretty sure the Melbourne metro tunnel entrance works package is greater than $600 million
  justarider Train Controller

Skyrail would be cheaper than tunnelling but likely only if the Skyrail is in long stretches e.g. > 3km. It's probably only the western section where this could be done. Tunnel entrances can be very expensive. Correct me if im wrong but im pretty sure the Melbourne metro tunnel entrance works package is greater than $600 million
John E
If anything, building anything "skyrail" should per km be cheaper than a tunnel. Not sure why they've gone straight to tunnels and driven up the price from day dot.
John.Z

Let's just knock the "skyrail is cheaper" nonsense out.

It is cheaper IF IF IF
there already is an existing easement which the railway owns
AND
that easement is fairy FLAT

Neither is true for SRL

Basic cost (5 year old, inflate however you like),
http://hotrails.net/resources/cost-estimates/

Tunnel $62M per km
Skyrail $25M pier & beams + $40M land acquisition = $65M per km
that is just the construction of pathway,
no tracks, signal, electric, stations, earthworks (hills and valleys)


Then cost in the difficulty skyrail would have climbing 3 of the highest hills in Melbourne - Box Hill, Doncaster, Heidelberg.  
Skyrial over Banyule flats - and you thought Dandenong 9 was a big fight, now it's in Mr Guy's backyard.
Neither of which are a major issue for the tunnel.

Can't be bothered pointing out the complexity of finding a route through Monash Uni, Latrobe Uni, Box Hill shopping, etc etc.

Cheaper, Skyrail is NOT

cheers
John

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