2018 State Election / Transport

 
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

As part of this investment, platform work at Southern Cross Station will also be completed as well as funding towards stabling and cleaning facilities to support these new trains.
Press release


https://www.danandrews.com.au/policies/bigger-better-trains-for-our-busiest-regional-lines?fbclid=IwAR0i2zrcU4GA411TorYAkwRtA5nb6bi9G9-iHoBUeC59uJXUPYFvgBklEtk

Any idea what this might refer to?

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  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
More (short-haul) Vlocities potentially on order for Geelong and Ballarat lines:
https://www.9news.com.au/2018/11/14/09/54/labor-pledges-340m-to-18-vline-trains

18 V/lo sets expected by 2021 conditional on ALP win.

Question - Can they be easily modified to long-distance and/or SG versions?
Carnot

This order will be to keep up with the current surge in patronage on the two lines and to finally retire forever the H sets that have been in service for only 58 years Exclamation

The long distance V'Locity's are likely to be a different order.

Mike.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
As part of this investment, platform work at Southern Cross Station will also be completed as well as funding towards stabling and cleaning facilities to support these new trains.


https://www.danandrews.com.au/policies/bigger-better-trains-for-our-busiest-regional-lines?fbclid=IwAR0i2zrcU4GA411TorYAkwRtA5nb6bi9G9-iHoBUeC59uJXUPYFvgBklEtk

Any idea what this might refer to?
potatoinmymouth

FINALLY completing the tiling of the platforms that was planned for the station back in 2005, which because of the PPP was handed over to the penny pinching, profit at all costs Southern Cross Station Authority which wasn't going to and hasn't spent ONE CENT more than is absolutely necessary on maintenance for the station.

The stabling works at Wyndham Vale has to be paid for from somewhere and perhaps another car wash to help offset the seemingly perpetually dirty carriages.

Mike.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
The stabling works at Wyndham Vale has to be paid for from somewhere and perhaps another car wash to help offset the seemingly perpetually dirty carriages.
"The Vinelander"
I sincerely hope that you don't expect Metro to pay anything for making carriages clean:shock:
  Lockie91 Train Controller

More (short-haul) Vlocities potentially on order for Geelong and Ballarat lines:
https://www.9news.com.au/2018/11/14/09/54/labor-pledges-340m-to-18-vline-trains

18 V/lo sets expected by 2021 conditional on ALP win.

Question - Can they be easily modified to long-distance and/or SG versions?
Carnot
This is a very interesting surprise when you take into account everything else that has been announced over the last few weeks.


Vline currently has 88 3 car sets. Plus todays announcement brings us to 106 sets.

Geelong and Ballarat have been flagged for upgrades and new electrified rolling stock to go with Labor's HSR announcement a few weeks ago.
Wyndham Vale and Melton have also been announced as being sparked, so they will use Metro Rolling stock.

The north east line has its own dedicated fleet of SG trains.

The 56 year young H sets are doing the heavy lifting for WV and Melton.

When Melton and WV are taken over by Metro in the next 10 years and when HSR demands are new rolling stock. What are VLine going to do with 106 sets to run on two lines, Bendigo and Gippsland?

Once again the vague and information light announcement leaves us with more questions than it answers.

Are these the Standard Vlos?
Are the original Vlos that are currently undergoing refurbishment going to be retired?
Does this is include the much hyped buffet cars?
Are these along with others going to converted for long haul trips?
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

More (short-haul) Vlocities potentially on order for Geelong and Ballarat lines:
https://www.9news.com.au/2018/11/14/09/54/labor-pledges-340m-to-18-vline-trains

18 V/lo sets expected by 2021 conditional on ALP win.

Question - Can they be easily modified to long-distance and/or SG versions?
This is a very interesting surprise when you take into account everything else that has been announced over the last few weeks.


Vline currently has 88 3 car sets. Plus todays announcement brings us to 106 sets.

Geelong and Ballarat have been flagged for upgrades and new electrified rolling stock to go with Labor's HSR announcement a few weeks ago.
Wyndham Vale and Melton have also been announced as being sparked, so they will use Metro Rolling stock.

The north east line has its own dedicated fleet of SG trains.

The 56 year young H sets are doing the heavy lifting for WV and Melton.

When Melton and WV are taken over by Metro in the next 10 years and when HSR demands are new rolling stock. What are VLine going to do with 106 sets to run on two lines, Bendigo and Gippsland?

Once again the vague and information light announcement leaves us with more questions than it answers.

Are these the Standard Vlos?
Are the original Vlos that are currently undergoing refurbishment going to be retired?
Does this is include the much hyped buffet cars?
Are these along with others going to converted for long haul trips?
Lockie91
All very good questions.  My impression from the announcement is:
1) That they are purely standard V/los.
2) I doubt it.  They should get another 15-20 years out of them.
3) See 1) (Unlikely)
4) Who knows?  One would hope so.
  Lockie91 Train Controller

More (short-haul) Vlocities potentially on order for Geelong and Ballarat lines:
https://www.9news.com.au/2018/11/14/09/54/labor-pledges-340m-to-18-vline-trains

18 V/lo sets expected by 2021 conditional on ALP win.

Question - Can they be easily modified to long-distance and/or SG versions?
This is a very interesting surprise when you take into account everything else that has been announced over the last few weeks.


Vline currently has 88 3 car sets. Plus todays announcement brings us to 106 sets.

Geelong and Ballarat have been flagged for upgrades and new electrified rolling stock to go with Labor's HSR announcement a few weeks ago.
Wyndham Vale and Melton have also been announced as being sparked, so they will use Metro Rolling stock.

The north east line has its own dedicated fleet of SG trains.

The 56 year young H sets are doing the heavy lifting for WV and Melton.

When Melton and WV are taken over by Metro in the next 10 years and when HSR demands are new rolling stock. What are VLine going to do with 106 sets to run on two lines, Bendigo and Gippsland?

Once again the vague and information light announcement leaves us with more questions than it answers.

Are these the Standard Vlos?
Are the original Vlos that are currently undergoing refurbishment going to be retired?
Does this is include the much hyped buffet cars?
Are these along with others going to converted for long haul trips?
All very good questions.  My impression from the announcement is:
1) That they are purely standard V/los.
2) I doubt it.  They should get another 15-20 years out of them.
3) See 1) (Unlikely)
4) Who knows?  One would hope so.
Carnot

Which brings me back to my original and more pressing question, what are they going to do with 106 sets running a 20 minute frequency on two lines and a handful of long haul services? You could have a different set for each day of the week...
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Which brings me back to my original and more pressing question, what are they going to do with 106 sets running a 20 minute frequency on two lines and a handful of long haul services? You could have a different set for each day of the week...
Lockie91
With the rate of cancellations on the Bendigo line lately maybe that is the plan!

BG
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

More (short-haul) Vlocities potentially on order for Geelong and Ballarat lines:
https://www.9news.com.au/2018/11/14/09/54/labor-pledges-340m-to-18-vline-trains

18 V/lo sets expected by 2021 conditional on ALP win.

Question - Can they be easily modified to long-distance and/or SG versions?
This is a very interesting surprise when you take into account everything else that has been announced over the last few weeks.


Vline currently has 88 3 car sets. Plus todays announcement brings us to 106 sets.

Geelong and Ballarat have been flagged for upgrades and new electrified rolling stock to go with Labor's HSR announcement a few weeks ago.
Wyndham Vale and Melton have also been announced as being sparked, so they will use Metro Rolling stock.

The north east line has its own dedicated fleet of SG trains.

The 56 year young H sets are doing the heavy lifting for WV and Melton.

When Melton and WV are taken over by Metro in the next 10 years and when HSR demands are new rolling stock. What are VLine going to do with 106 sets to run on two lines, Bendigo and Gippsland?

Once again the vague and information light announcement leaves us with more questions than it answers.

Are these the Standard Vlos?
Are the original Vlos that are currently undergoing refurbishment going to be retired?
Does this is include the much hyped buffet cars?
Are these along with others going to converted for long haul trips?
All very good questions.  My impression from the announcement is:
1) That they are purely standard V/los.
2) I doubt it.  They should get another 15-20 years out of them.
3) See 1) (Unlikely)
4) Who knows?  One would hope so.

Which brings me back to my original and more pressing question, what are they going to do with 106 sets running a 20 minute frequency on two lines and a handful of long haul services? You could have a different set for each day of the week...
Lockie91
This is an excellent question and one that has clearly not been considered by anyone in the government.

First point of order is that we can safely assume VLos will eventually become the rollingstock of choice on the Seymour line as well, so that makes three lines.

Second point is this: V/Line currently has 133 loco-hauled carriages in service, according to their annual report, although I think this includes vans. About 76 of these, according to Wikipedia, are the N sets, almost all of which are allocated to long-distance duties presently. If they usually run as 4-car sets this makes 19 sets. 51 are the H sets. Compare this to the ~318 VLocity carriages we may end up with.

Let's say the H sets can be discarded entirely as their roles will be taken by Metro services. (I know this is not strictly true from a rostering perspective but it is roughly right from a pure numbers point of view.) Then suppose the N set fleet is entirely replaced by VLocities for long-haul services. Let's be generous and give 2 3-car sets to each service formerly run by an N set - so roughly 38 sets required there. This leaves 72 sets. Let's also assume the Geelong and Ballarat lines are sparked and run entirely by new intercity stock.

Now take another 12 of these to run additional SG services in Western Vic, and account for the non-commuter runs presently occupied by VLos - Ararat, Maryborough, Echuca.

So, 60 sets to spread across Bendigo, Seymour and Traralgon. That's only 30 6-car trains. I admit I've surprised myself a bit; this doesn't seem entirely unreasonable in light of country rail patronage that will only continue to increase.
  Lockie91 Train Controller

More (short-haul) Vlocities potentially on order for Geelong and Ballarat lines:
https://www.9news.com.au/2018/11/14/09/54/labor-pledges-340m-to-18-vline-trains

18 V/lo sets expected by 2021 conditional on ALP win.

Question - Can they be easily modified to long-distance and/or SG versions?
This is a very interesting surprise when you take into account everything else that has been announced over the last few weeks.


Vline currently has 88 3 car sets. Plus todays announcement brings us to 106 sets.

Geelong and Ballarat have been flagged for upgrades and new electrified rolling stock to go with Labor's HSR announcement a few weeks ago.
Wyndham Vale and Melton have also been announced as being sparked, so they will use Metro Rolling stock.

The north east line has its own dedicated fleet of SG trains.

The 56 year young H sets are doing the heavy lifting for WV and Melton.

When Melton and WV are taken over by Metro in the next 10 years and when HSR demands are new rolling stock. What are VLine going to do with 106 sets to run on two lines, Bendigo and Gippsland?

Once again the vague and information light announcement leaves us with more questions than it answers.

Are these the Standard Vlos?
Are the original Vlos that are currently undergoing refurbishment going to be retired?
Does this is include the much hyped buffet cars?
Are these along with others going to converted for long haul trips?
All very good questions.  My impression from the announcement is:
1) That they are purely standard V/los.
2) I doubt it.  They should get another 15-20 years out of them.
3) See 1) (Unlikely)
4) Who knows?  One would hope so.

Which brings me back to my original and more pressing question, what are they going to do with 106 sets running a 20 minute frequency on two lines and a handful of long haul services? You could have a different set for each day of the week...
This is an excellent question and one that has clearly not been considered by anyone in the government.

First point of order is that we can safely assume VLos will eventually become the rollingstock of choice on the Seymour line as well, so that makes three lines.

Second point is this: V/Line currently has 133 loco-hauled carriages in service, according to their annual report, although I think this includes vans. About 76 of these, according to Wikipedia, are the N sets, almost all of which are allocated to long-distance duties presently. If they usually run as 4-car sets this makes 19 sets. 51 are the H sets. Compare this to the ~318 VLocity carriages we may end up with.

Let's say the H sets can be discarded entirely as their roles will be taken by Metro services. (I know this is not strictly true from a rostering perspective but it is roughly right from a pure numbers point of view.) Then suppose the N set fleet is entirely replaced by VLocities for long-haul services. Let's be generous and give 2 3-car sets to each service formerly run by an N set - so roughly 38 sets required there. This leaves 72 sets. Let's also assume the Geelong and Ballarat lines are sparked and run entirely by new intercity stock.

Now take another 12 of these to run additional SG services in Western Vic, and account for the non-commuter runs presently occupied by VLos - Ararat, Maryborough, Echuca.

So, 60 sets to spread across Bendigo, Seymour and Traralgon. That's only 30 6-car trains. I admit I've surprised myself a bit; this doesn't seem entirely unreasonable in light of country rail patronage that will only continue to increase.
potatoinmymouth
Your crunch of the numbers is excellent!

New SG fleet is supposedly in development and if they are just "standard" Vlos not destined for Long Haul services then that leaves us with 60+ sets for Bendigo, Gippsland and Seymour.

How many 6 car sets would be need to run a 20 minute services on these lines?
  ngarner Train Controller

Location: Seville
Andrews released something a month or so ago about 9 car VLo's to Geelong. That would take up some of the extras, at least until the electrified "fast" trains appear (if that ever happens).
He also intend's to extend to Armstrong Creek which will require some more VLo's as that is unlikely to be electrified.
The fast train proposals are fairly vague from the little that I've seen; has anyone seen anything to suggest the electrification is going to go through the Geelong tunnel? If not, Vlo's are going to be needed from Waurn Ponds to Geelong as well as Armstrong Creek (eventually).

Neil
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Sorry - jut noticed above I can’t count - 106 minus 38 is 68, not 72!
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
Sorry - jut noticed above I can’t count - 106 minus 38 is 68, not 72!
potatoinmymouth
You also forgot the SG lines to Albury, and the fairly likely Hamilton(& beyond?) to Horsham(& beyond?).
Need to count a few trains there, they haven't been ordered yet. It's just a bogie swap.

cheers
John
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

I didn’t bother to account for the SG lines (current and future) separately because I’m starting to think they won’t be a new build - just SG bogies on existing sets, perhaps with modifications to the interior.

The whole thing is only approximate anyway.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

https://www.ptua.org.au/files/2018/PTUA_201811_Stories_Of_Growth.pdf
Interesting report by the PTUA on the patterns that have developed in Melbourne’s public transport use over the last century.

Discuss.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
https://www.ptua.org.au/files/2018/PTUA_201811_Stories_Of_Growth.pdf
Interesting report by the PTUA on the patterns that have developed in Melbourne’s public transport use over the last century.

Discuss.
potatoinmymouth
Needs it's own thread IMO, way too complex for this one and a debate that will continue long after the November election.

BG
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Well, you could have done it yourself BG!

On another note, against my better judgement, I listened to the candidates for transport minister debate this morning on Jon Faine. Didn't learn much I didn't already know: David Davis is an absolute clown with no actual policies, and Jacinta Allan is an awful communicator who might as well not be defending her policies.

Case in point - an undecided voter from Lara rang and asked what both parties would do about the Geelong line. Davis obfuscated and tied himself in knots trying to deny that they have no idea what track amplification might be required, and when Faine pressed him about Southern Cross capacity, he fell apart completely. It should have been an absolute walkover for Allan given that Labor has a very clear policy on WV and Melton sparking, plus Sunshine tunnel - but no, she fell back on her "talking to the community" cliches and couldn't get out a committal answer. Not good listening.

Faine also made the point that even if Skyrail is as bad for immediate neighbours as Davis claims, removing four crossings and building a new station in Pakenham is a better use of public money than cutting the scope just to keep the trench people happy. Davis said he wasn't interested in the greater good.

The only point of some interest I thought was that Davis said he was keen to extend myki to the rest of the regional network. No reason to believe him, given he was part of the government that stopped the rollout in the first place, but it stood out in a "debate" where very few actual ideas appeared.
  TheMeddlingMonk Deputy Commissioner

Location: The Time Vortex near Melbourne, Australia
Faine also made the point that even if Skyrail is as bad for immediate neighbours as Davis claims, removing four crossings and building a new station in Pakenham is a better use of public money than cutting the scope just to keep the trench people happy. Davis said he wasn't interested in the greater good.
potatoinmymouth
This strikes me as highly irresponsible. He is the Shadow Minister for Public Transport (and Shadow Minister for Planning!) for the state of Victoria and as such, it is his job to be interested in the greater good. It sounds dangerous for this guy to be in a position of power.

Other media releases I've read show that he seems rather obsessed with anti-skyrail propaganda and lowering tracks (even where physically impossible on the Frankston line).
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Well, you could have done it yourself BG!

On another note, against my better judgement, I listened to the candidates for transport minister debate this morning on Jon Faine. Didn't learn much I didn't already know: David Davis is an absolute clown with no actual policies, and Jacinta Allan is an awful communicator who might as well not be defending her policies.

Case in point - an undecided voter from Lara rang and asked what both parties would do about the Geelong line. Davis obfuscated and tied himself in knots trying to deny that they have no idea what track amplification might be required, and when Faine pressed him about Southern Cross capacity, he fell apart completely. It should have been an absolute walkover for Allan given that Labor has a very clear policy on WV and Melton sparking, plus Sunshine tunnel - but no, she fell back on her "talking to the community" cliches and couldn't get out a committal answer. Not good listening.

Faine also made the point that even if Skyrail is as bad for immediate neighbours as Davis claims, removing four crossings and building a new station in Pakenham is a better use of public money than cutting the scope just to keep the trench people happy. Davis said he wasn't interested in the greater good.

The only point of some interest I thought was that Davis said he was keen to extend myki to the rest of the regional network. No reason to believe him, given he was part of the government that stopped the rollout in the first place, but it stood out in a "debate" where very few actual ideas appeared.
potatoinmymouth
I'm not surprised really given the both are largely clueless when it comes to Infrastructure Planning, Engineering, and so forth.

David Davis was a chiropractor, and Jacinta Allan a B.A graduate with Trades Hall connections who went straight into politics.  I've found the former to be reactionary, and latter rather passive-aggressive.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey



gone
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
https://www.ptua.org.au/files/2018/PTUA_201811_Stories_Of_Growth.pdf
Interesting report by the PTUA on the patterns that have developed in Melbourne’s public transport use over the last century.

Discuss.
Needs it's own thread IMO, way too complex for this one and a debate that will continue long after the November election.

BG
BrentonGolding
Agreed, needs its own thread. This issue will go well beyond this election cycle.

The graphs on public transport use are mind boggling. The final conclusion about how American cities fell behind with public transport and low income earning population are sober reflection re inaction on public transport in Melbourne between 1966 and 2004.  Remember that cutting half started at Victoria Park - before the freeway was constructed?
  Carnot Chief Commissioner




gone
x31
Well a big error of judgment obviously.

But why does she go and yet the foul-mouthed misogynist rapper (Angus McAlpine) from Footscray running for the Greens doesn't and is defended by their leader.

So much double standards!
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner




gone
Well a big error of judgment obviously.

But why does she go and yet the foul-mouthed misogynist rapper (Angus McAlpine) from Footscray running for the Greens doesn't and is defended by their leader.

So much double standards!
Carnot
While I agree with the sentiment, it's not a double standard. If McAlpine was a Liberal candidate, that would be a different story, but political parties should be free to endorse and unendorse candidates as they see fit.

I was contemplating preferencing the Greens ahead of Labor - transport is my big issue after all and the Greens have some excellent ideas in that field - but the McAlpine episode has convinced me (among other things) they have a long way to go before they are a mature and reasonable third option. I suspect many others will feel the same way - see also the polling indicating Mr Wynne will comfortably hold Richmond even without Liberal preferences.
  ngarner Train Controller

Location: Seville
Backtracking a little on this thread - Did some digging and found this rather interesting read:

https://www.surfcoast.vic.gov.au/files/assets/public/01-about-us/council/council-meetings-and-minutes/council-agendas-amp-minutes/2017/27-june/item-3.3-appendix-1-torquay-transport-rail-link-report-aecom-2014.pdf

These plans do allow for electrification in the future, so in the long run Vlo's may not be needed on the Armstrong Creek line in the long term.

Neil
  gippslander Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Gippsland, Vic
I would have thought the interior of a VLocity could be reconfigured for long distance use without too many problems. A pod for a small snack bar could be provided as well as extra space for bikes. However, bikes seem to be a casualty on the focus to squeeze more people on trains. It will be very hard to get cyclists to use passenger line serviced rail trails if there is minimum space for them.

From what I hear, the Sale and Bairnsdale people are very happy with VLocity’s - a situation which will probably improve in the summer months. It’s not much fun riding an old loco hauled N set with dodgy airconditioning.

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