Clyde extension should not wait 10-15 years to get built

 
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

We're stating the obvious, but clearly the guy above is under the misconception that things get built in safe seats such as the western suburbs.

For his benefit, let's point out that Andrews focussed on shoring up the marginal seat of Yan Yean with the Mernda extension, and the Sandbelt with the Bentleigh etc removals.  

Similarly, Guy is focussing on trying to get hold of the extremely marginal seats of Cranbourne and Frankston.

Meanwhile, safe Labor seat Melton sits waiting for electrification for decades, and safe Labor northern seats like Coburg etc are well down the list of LX removal priority.

You want infrastructure projects, living in a marginal seat helps.
Adogs
In the safe Labor seat Melton in four years, the rail line is getting duplicated, completion is 2019. A much benefit to Melton. Caroline Springs train station, also located in the western suburbs. St Albans got 2 level crossing removals in 2016, also another western suburb. Also the western suburbs got the suburban road upgrades BEFORE the northern and the south eastern roads were included. Coburg and Preston got additional level crossings added, hence why those ones are delayed. As well as that the Altona level crossing which is a quiet and on a single track, got upgraded despite being not in a marginal seat.

I do however agree with ur last statement a marginal seat will ensure a guarantee outcome for infrastructure, but doesn't mean safe seats are that u noted are neglected, just not get the flashy projects immediately.

Anyways the Wyndham Vale & Melton electrification have been delayed to include the Airport link and the full quadding unfortunately, bumping up the costs and time-frame. 2027 is the date expected for that to be even finished. But it'll be worth the wait.

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  jp_metrowest Beginner

Location: St. Albans
In the safe Labor seat Melton in four years, the rail line is getting duplicated, completion is 2019. A much benefit to Melton. Caroline Springs train station, also located in the western suburbs. St Albans got 2 level crossing removals in 2016, also another western suburb. Also the western suburbs got the suburban road upgrades BEFORE the northern and the south eastern roads were included.
True Believers
Okay, but the Liberals were the ones who built the Caroline Springs train station and that was literally because they were in a Labor safe seat. While we're at it, that train station was built waaaaaay later than it should have been.

I would also argue that the 2 level crossing removals at St. Albans and Ginifer HAD to be among the first level crossings to go, because the statistics showed those two were among the most dangerous in the network. If those two were the most dangerous in the network and you began rolling out these level crossing removals, would you have left them out?

Finally, the suburban road upgrades, I see what you mean by the western suburbs being announced BEFORE any of the others, but does that necessarily mean they weren't all part of the same project? Perhaps the Western chunk of the project was ready to be announced first...?


Look, I'm not saying that the Western suburbs (where I live) aren't getting a lot of work done, and it might look like Labor is pandering to our demands. But all I ask is for you to understand in the DECADE previous to Andrews government, both Liberal and Labor have ignored us. All we got done for us was Caroline Springs station, Keilor Plains level crossing removal (which was in 2008-- also under Labor), and the Deer Park Bypass.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
But Mernda doesn't have a town centre yet, therefore it should not have a station until that town centre is finished (probably 30 years from now)

When development justifies it.
So, now?
stooge
Groan.  Go check out a map of Mernda, then compare to Clyde - one has significant development surrounding the station, the other does not.

We're only talking a few years, but the idea that Clyde is anywhere behind schedule is fanciful at best.

On Casey Fields vs Cranbourne East, the former also works better for the bus network, as services can drop directly at the station and continue onto Cranbourne, without any spaghetti dog legs the system is plagued with.  This is one of the primary reasons stations are more suitably placed at major arterials, as it allows you to run both station feeders and local transport using the same routes without compromise.


We're stating the obvious, but clearly the guy above is under the misconception that things get built in safe seats such as the western suburbs.
Adogs
Yes, the west was ignored for years - anyone who claims otherwise has a short memory.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Correct me if I'm wrong but judging by previous experience the construction of new infrastructure seems to trigger development in the area...
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
You are aware of who is in control of new development, right?
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
You are aware of who is in control of new development, right?
ZH836301
Yep.
  drunkill Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Plenty of space here for a station and a ton of carparking, even once the road is duplicated.


Ask the AFL for a bit of funding as AFLW and VFL games are played there and would be very handy with a station.
to which "here" do you refer. A few Km of contention in your pic.

cheers
John
justarider
The centre of it.

The wedge of land between the trainline and the road, the space for more carparking next to the oval.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

In the safe Labor seat Melton in four years, the rail line is getting duplicated, completion is 2019. A much benefit to Melton. Caroline Springs train station, also located in the western suburbs. St Albans got 2 level crossing removals in 2016, also another western suburb. Also the western suburbs got the suburban road upgrades BEFORE the northern and the south eastern roads were included.
Okay, but the Liberals were the ones who built the Caroline Springs train station and that was literally because they were in a Labor safe seat.
jp_metrowest
Umm nope. It was part of an original new station in growth area program in 2010 announced by Labor. This had bipartisan support. Stations that were part of the program: Williams Landing, Cardinia Road, Lynbrook, Caroline Springs. Liberals won the election.

The first 3 were built by Liberals, opened in 2013. Caroline Springs was left out due to budget blow-out of the program.

Labor promised to build it in 2014 and was built under the Labor Government and opened in 2016.

And I'm not saying the west hasn't been neglected for it's safe seats. But surprisingly Labor does still doesn't take them for granted.

They did stop the Altona shuttle services and run them direct into the CBD. The Newport rail yards got a massive upgrade for assembling the HCMTs. The west gate distributor/tunnel, even though it's not the best project, it's still a major western road project. Politically the west gate tunnel doesn't do Labor any favors gaining seats.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
In the safe Labor seat Melton in four years, the rail line is getting duplicated, completion is 2019.
True Believers
Yes, but it will still be a part of the country rail network. This means a very poor service for Deer Park, Caroline Springs & Melton. It means weekend trains run hourly, as opposed to every 20 minutes on the suburban network, it means passengers from Melton often face trains that are already full from Ballarat before they get to Melton, it means an evening and early morning service that is almost non existent. It means Melton trains are the first to be cancelled by V/Line the second they feel the pinch (the 1537 down to Melton is cancelled more often than it runs).

Yes, It is all a lot better than it was 15 years ago, but it is still inadequate. There is no real reason to expect that this will change with duplication. There may be more weekday services, but evening and weekend services will continue to stagnate because that is just what happens.

St Albans got 2 level crossing removals in 2016, also another western suburb.
True Believers
Main Rd was the single deadliest crossing in Victoria. There had been more fatal crashes at this cluster-f#$k of an intersection than any where else in the state. The fact that it had to wait until 2016 to be dealt with was a scandal in itself.

the western suburbs got the suburban road upgrades BEFORE the northern and the south eastern roads were included.
True Believers
Oh the old suburban road upgrade. This is the one that included major upgrades to roads inlcuding Leakes Rd, Doherty's Rd, Boundary Rd, Palmers Rd, Sayers Rd, Derrimut Rd, Point Cook Rd among others. Yes, they may have been announced first, but they are all still single lane death traps. I should know, I have to drive a heavy vehicle down them all every single day.

Work has now started on duplicating Doherty's Road. No sign yet on any of the others getting any work done yet.

Okay, but the Liberals were the ones who built the Caroline Springs train station and that was literally because they were in a Labor safe seat. While we're at it, that train station was built waaaaaay later than it should have been.
jp_metrowest
Wow, way off. was announced under Labor, was scheduled to be built after the 2010 election (which Labor lost to the Libs) and the Libs canned it after it all became too hard. Instead they built stations in the East at Cardnia Rd and Lynbrook, as well as the monstrosity of the West that is Williams Landing.

Caroline Springs was eventually built after Labor got back into office.


The West have been neglected, by both sides. There are currently 3 Metro rail lines (Williamstown, Werribee & Sunbury)and 2 tram line (the 82 and the 57) to cater for a 3rd of the Greater Metropolitan area. The majority of the area still relies on over-burdened V/Line trains as no government has seen fit to string up wires and provide the west with something resembling a suburban rail service.

And now they say we have to wait for the Airport Rail to be built first. Because a train to the Airport is more important than the needs of every day commuters.


As for the topic in question, I have no issue with the Cranny line getting extended out to Clyde, but it should come after the existing line has been duplicated, otherwise you are just creating a new problem.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Correct, we shouldn't even be thinking of Clyde until the rest of the line is up to scratch - that means duplication from Dandenong to Cranbourne, along with quad track to Dandenong to allow all day express services.  But the real improvement that needs to be made is in bus services in the region, not just for connection to the rail network, but more importantly for local travel, which accounts for most of the transport task.

Take journeys to work - most residents in Casey work locally, around 28% in Casey itself, and 19% in Greater Dandenong.  For comparison, less than 10% commute to the city's centre (eg. City of Melbourne, Yarra and Port Phillip councils).  Many of those working locally do so in the industrial zone south of Dandenong proper (one of the city's principal industrial regions), in Greater Dandenong between Eastlink and the Western Port Hwy broadly, north of Bangholme Rd, along with the region in Hallam in Casey.  However, despite the demand for travel to this area, two of the primary bus routes through this region (857 & 890) only run every 40min & 60min respectively.  In addition, the link between Cranbourne and Narre Warren only runs every half hour.

The entire bus network needs to be ripped up and replaced, with circuitous spaghetti routes eliminated, and direct, high frequency links put in their place.  The amount of waste, both in slow and duplicated routes means the actual cost of doing this is not a substantial burden.  Too much emphasis is placed on expensive, high capacity projects, when in reality it is the lack of a quality, direct, high frequency base network that stops people from using public transport.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

along with quad track to Dandenong to allow all day express services.
ZH836301
Supports Dandenong quadding. Doesn't support Wyndham Vale/Melton Quadding on another post. Doesn't believe the west deserves a segregated metro services too. You can't have it both ways.

Express Gippsland services, but declines express services for Geelong and Ballarat, very questionable indeed.
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

This here is the main issue with Matt Guy promising to extend to Clyde.  It can't realistically be done until Dandenong-Cranbourne has been duplicated.  Or to put it another way, it "could" but would be a pretty smeg service.

So whoever wins next weekend, the Clyde extension will probably take the same amount of time to actually get built.

Also, on pretty much any extension they announce, worth bearing in mind the Libs may regret strapping themselves so tightly to the No Skyrail bandwagon.  Have they released plans showing that they can do every existing crossing as rail-under?
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
along with quad track to Dandenong to allow all day express services.
Supports Dandenong quadding. Doesn't support Wyndham Vale/Melton Quadding on another post. Doesn't believe the west deserves a segregated metro services too. You can't have it both ways.

Express Gippsland services, but declines express services for Geelong and Ballarat, very questionable indeed.
True Believers
Shouldn't really need to go that far unless the suburban train frequency is high enough. Deer Park to begin with then the rest later when the train frequency justifies it.
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

Relevant to discussion, in today's episode of "It's good to be a marginal electorate":

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/nov/16/both-major-parties-are-making-big-promises-in-cranbourne

So essentially both Labor and the Libs are committed to extended to Clyde in theory, with two stations past Cranbourne.

Difference being Labor's plan includes duplicating Dandenong-Cranny at a price tag of $750mil, then a smaller allocation to planning works for the Clyde extension, whereas Libs are committing $487mil to Clyde but expressly not funding Cranbourne duplication.

Your average Joe Voter in Cranbourne won't know the details of how rail infrastructure works, so I'm not sure what their takeaway from looking at that will be.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Your average Joe Voter in Cranbourne won't know the details of how rail infrastructure works, so I'm not sure what their takeaway from looking at that will be.
Adogs

Unfortunately in my experience most people will go for the extension.

The problem is that Labor’s transport policies are vastly superior to those of the Liberals, but for some mysterious reason they refuse to communicate them properly and instead treat the electorate like morons.

“By having double track all the way to Cranbourne, we can have trains going in both directions at the same time, so you get a better service.”

There, I put it in a sound bite. It’s not hard. Same for the “competing” regional rail plans.

“Geelong and Ballarat commuters have told us they don’t want to stop at suburban stations. So we’ll build express tracks from Southern Cross to Sunshine, and then to Melton and Wyndham Vale, so you get home faster.”

I could go on.

“By converting the Murray Basin lines to standard gauge, Victorian grain can travel straight to other states on the train. We want to make sure that the tracks in Ballarat can cope with our growing export market.” (See, you can add spin, too, without losing clarity!)

“At the moment, there can only be 3 trains at once between Kyneton and Bendigo. We want to fit more, without slowing the trains down again.” (You can even excuse your own mistakes!)
  Lockspike Deputy Commissioner


The problem is that Labor’s transport policies are vastly superior to those of the Liberals, but for some mysterious reason they refuse to communicate them properly and instead treat the electorate like morons.

“By having double track all the way to Cranbourne, we can have trains going in both directions at the same time, so you get a better service.”

There, I put it in a sound bite. It’s not hard. Same for the “competing” regional rail plans.

“Geelong and Ballarat commuters have told us they don’t want to stop at suburban stations. So we’ll build express tracks from Southern Cross to Sunshine, and then to Melton and Wyndham Vale, so you get home faster.”

I could go on.

“By converting the Murray Basin lines to standard gauge, Victorian grain can travel straight to other states on the train. We want to make sure that the tracks in Ballarat can cope with our growing export market.” (See, you can add spin, too, without losing clarity!)

“At the moment, there can only be 3 trains at once between Kyneton and Bendigo. We want to fit more, without slowing the trains down again.” (You can even excuse your own mistakes!)
potatoinmymouth
Hey PIMM, you considering spin as a new career? Cool

Seriously, do the 'spinners' not know enough of what they are talking about to make sense, or, are they being deliberately vague to give the politicians wriggle room?
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
The minister would rely on advice from the department in interviews and to make announcements. Given that (at least someone in) the department was annoyed enough by the external work on the SRL and the Airport Rail Link that the updated network development plan was leaked as an "alternative", it could be that the public servants are annoyed and giving poor advice.

Or it could just be that the minister is bad at media, or at least not as good as she thinks she is. In the post-House of Cards world, everyone likes to think of themselves as a much smarter political operator than they actually are.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

The minister would rely on advice from the department in interviews and to make announcements. Given that (at least someone in) the department was annoyed enough by the external work on the SRL and the Airport Rail Link that the updated network development plan was leaked as an "alternative", it could be that the public servants are annoyed and giving poor advice.

Or it could just be that the minister is bad at media, or at least not as good as she thinks she is. In the post-House of Cards world, everyone likes to think of themselves as a much smarter political operator than they actually are.
TOQ-1
The fact that we still don't know if the MARL is going to be capacity constrained by the SRL, or even what they will be in relation to each other is most worrying.

Are they two services that share a track pair?
Is the MARL just the Airport-Sunshine portion of the SRL?

Who knows? Because there's no documentation to say otherwsie
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

The fact that we still don't know if the MARL is going to be capacity constrained by the SRL, or even what they will be in relation to each other is most worrying. Are they two services that share a track pair? Is the MARL just the Airport-Sunshine portion of the SRL? Who knows? Because there's no documentation to say otherwsie
John.Z

Well, we’re hilariously off topic now, but I don’t think you can blame the pollies or the public servants too much for this one. There hasn’t been any actual “rail planning” done on this - and that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

No one has proposed an orbital railway in Melbourne for over 100 years. The whole point of the Strategic Appraisal was to show that such a thing could actually be justified, at the very conceptual level. Remember, at the start of the process, they hadn’t even decided whether they would go further in or further out. As I’ve said before, it’s probably a good thing it was carried out by urban planners and not transport planners, because their goal was to maximise impacts on urban form without being constrained by the same old idea that have been floating around the transport bureaucracy for decades.

I know YM and others will what my head on a platter for saying this, but transport planners/railway engineers are not the people who should be leading strategic changes to the transport network. Same goes for roads. They should absolutely have input, but their strength is in tactical planning and upgrades to existing networks, not creating new ones. I know I’ve used the example before, but if it had been up to the railway planners we wouldn’t have a City Loop, and look at how that’s transformed the CBD.

To sum up this rather rambling post and answer John’s original point, we shouldn’t have expected the SRL planners to think all of these things through straight away. That starts now.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
The fact that we still don't know if the MARL is going to be capacity constrained by the SRL, or even what they will be in relation to each other is most worrying.

Are they two services that share a track pair?
Is the MARL just the Airport-Sunshine portion of the SRL?

Who knows? Because there's no documentation to say otherwsie
John.Z
We've been specifically told that the Western section hasn't been planned in detail - the Labor party announced funding to do the plans, not funding to build.

I cannot see a world where a train to the airport every 10 minutes is constrained by an orbital rail line. If the signalling between the Airport and Sunshine allows for even conventional signalling of 20 trains per hour, that's still 14 for the loop.
  historian Deputy Commissioner

As for @ZH836301 I think he is from the 19th century, his comments don't fit in with 21st century thinking.
ianb26

Actually, he's from the late 20th century; certainly post 1960.

In the 19th century, and for the first 2/3rds of the 20th century, the assumption was that commuters would walk to their local station. With the development and popularisation of the pneumatic tyred bike from around 1900, some passenger would cycle, of course.

The result of this is the station network we see in the inner and inner middle suburbia. This features closely spaced stations. If you look at contemporary maps these stations seemed to be spaced to give a walking distance in the continuously built up area of about 10 to 15 minutes home to station. The stations, of course, were situated about 10 to 15 minutes walking apart as this gave reasonable walking times in a continuous strip of land along the railway line (draw some circles on a map if you don't understand this).

These stations are not necessarily situated on major roads, or at major shopping centres. Most, however, featured at least some shops in the vicinity of the station to catch the trade of people going to or returning from work. Good examples of the remnants of these small shopping (now houses) exist at Ascot Vale and Seddon. Other small shopping centres still exist, such as Patterson.

With electrification in the 1910s/1920s, the government took advantage of the higher acceleration of the new trains to actually provide infill stations to reduce the inter-station gaps. There are many examples including Anstey and Dennis.

Another feature of the electrification which seems to be overlooked today is that the electrification extended well beyond the continuously built-up area of Melbourne, and even well beyond what could be expected to be built up. Take the Frankston and Dandenong lines. Around the end of WWI, the continuously built up area extended to Caulfield/Glenhuntly/Carnegie. Beyond the built up area rapidly thinned out. Subdivision rapidly followed electrification, but not that far. The belt of '20s style houses (notably Californian Bungalows) only extends from Caulfield to Bentleigh and Oakleigh. Beyond those stations, there were certainly villages (which got bigger with commuters), but these were separated by open farmland. Electrification to Dandenong and Frankston was the modern day equivalent of electrifying the line to Kyneton.

This development philosophy changed post WWII. In fact, we can date it quite precisely to post 1960. Around 1960, the government opened the last 'in fill' stations (e.g. Patterson) which were still build with the assumption that people would walk to the station.

After this the philosophy changed. The assumption was that people would drive to stations. Hence, as suburbia continued to creep outwards, car parks were constructed at stations rather than additional infill stations. Some infill stations were still constructed (e.g. Kananook), but these divided very large gaps between stations, and a car park was always a feature.

This is the urban design philosophy that ZH836301 is operating on. It's why he wants to build a small number of stations with large car parks near major arterial roads. You also can also see this philosophy in the occasional calls to close 'little used' stations in the inner area.

Daniel Bowen has recently pointed out that statistics show that walking is still the most common way that most people arrive at suburban stations. He has suggested that the importance of park and ride is an illusion. Park and ride appears to be important because of the extremely inefficient use of land in car parks. We see a huge and full car park, but fail to realise that this actually represents a very small number of passengers.
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

Historian is 100% correct.

Luckily, we may be seeing a shift in this mindset, with the metro tunnel etc combined with increasing density in the middle suburbs meaning planners are returning to thinking about walkability.  Many new apartment developments in suburbs like Box Hill are being deliberately planned without parking spaces.

European city planners twigged about 10-20 years ago to the fact also that walkability is a big economic generator for cities, especially for small businesses, stopping European cities succumbing to something like the Walmart cancer of the US.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Daniel Bowen has recently pointed out that statistics show that walking is still the most common way that most people arrive at suburban stations. He has suggested that the importance of park and ride is an illusion. Park and ride appears to be important because of the extremely inefficient use of land in car parks. We see a huge and full car park, but fail to realise that this actually represents a very small number of passengers.
historian
Great post as usual Historian,

I would add that the next step change will be autonomous ride share vehicles which will see pax being able to use self driving vehicles as taxis to pick them up from home and drop them off at the station and vice versa which will massively reduce the need for car parks.

I also don't understand why we just keep building at grade carparks taking up massive tracts of land and serving no other purpose. Multi level could achieve so much more with shops on the ground level facing the station or busy adjacent street, undercover waiting area for kiss and ride passengers, bus interchanges etc. Once again the station could become the hub of the community which would be especially useful in areas which have been built as car dependent with no little shops. A post office for people to pick up their online shopping, a cafe or 2, a convenience store for those last minute forgotten items or dinner ideas. Think of how such a setup could transform barren stations like Keilor Plains or a future Calder Park which will no doubt be in the middle of nowhere.

Instead we take the cheap and cheerful option of covering a larger area with asphalt and concrete which is to everyone's detriment removing precious green spaces, causing more water runoff issues etc.

BG
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

"...instead we take the cheap and cheerful option..."

I'll pick on one detail - carparks aren't particularly cheap to build.  As historian noted, station carparks are surprisingly expensive - anything from $15,000 up to $40,000 per space from memory.  Then the social/planning cost of paving over otherwise useful space.

But besides that, I agree with you.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

If I were Bill Shorten, I’d promise some money into Victorian Infrastructure. He’s already promised 6 Billion towards some Sydney Metro Project/ Badgerys Creek Rail and Cross River Rail if he gets in.

We already have the feds funding Baxter Rail, Rowville/Monash corridor Light Rail/Heavy Rail, Airport Rail, South Geelong-Waurn Ponds Duplication and North East Link.

I know he’s promising funding for Suburban Rail Loop early works and possibly funding if he gets in, why doesn’t he announce 600 Million Clyde Rail Extension. Would go well alongside Daniel Andrews full duplication project and kill too birds with one stone. While we’re at it, fund stage 1 of metro 2 from Newport to Parkville (9.5 Billion) and Doncaster Rail (1.5 Billion). Some funding our way, fastest growing city in Australia, will become the largest city in a decade or so, you’re a melburian Bill, come on man

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