C30T RTR HO scale - Wombat Models surprise release

 
  Captainchoochoo61 Locomotive Fireman

There seems to be some common ideas running through several threads in the Aussie market.

Small steam locos are exactly that Small steam locos.

They are not designed to empty the marshalling yard and the goods shed as well.

When people are operating these type of locos they seem to improve with some good running in periods.

It seems that many have some coating on the drivers, and that with cleaning and running the improvement in running qualities improves.

Wheels not turning seems to be an adjustment that needs looking into.

Front and rear trucks seem to be appearing in various settings so once again it seems you need to look, observe and adjust.

Plonking these straight onto  layout and expecting them to haul 50 wagons is not how they were designed.

Why not do what the prototype did with new engines.
Give them some trial runs and observe before load trials.
Then you can establish what is needed.

And remember less is more!!!

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  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

I’ve got one of each and saturated weighed 145g v 149 for superheated on my scales. Both have weight in the smoke box but I’ve put 3063 away so can’t tell how different they are. I did notice on both though that the leading driver will fall into a frog’s flangeway on peco code 75 large radius points. The rear driver does too but not so noticeable. The Lloyds doesn’t and I would presume that’s due to the larger tread compared to the finer .088” tread on the wombat.
oscar2
NMRA RP25-88 wheels are not strictly compatible with Peco turnouts (both Code 100 and Code 75) but unfortunately for Peco users that’s what many RTR manufacturers are now fitting to locos. There is a problem with wheel drop in crossing flangeways, but it is usually only noticeable on locos and rollingstock with sprung suspension. A rigid wheelbase (such as a 4 wheel bogie) that is balanced will ride the frog without problem. In the case of the Wombat C30T, I’d say the weight imbalance (forward bias) causes the 88 width leading driver to drop into the frog.
  a6et Minister for Railways

After heading home following Liverpool on Saturday 3 of us called in to a fellow modellers home on the Central Coast, he has a large U.S styled layout and does a lot of DCC/sound installs.  One of us had a Womby 30T with some problem and was fixed in a few minutes.

On the layout. the 30T was given a few tests, firstly with a long train on a dead level section of track of around 6 metres, all the wagons around 15 of them were larger U.S bogie types, and the 30T had no issues pulling that, it was then stopped at another spot where the U.S long train load was taken off and a consist of 13 heavy 4 wheel U.S ore cars was attached to take on a 1:60 grade that was straight before going onto a right hand curve of 30 inch radius his smallest on the layout.

As there was little momentum to get up the hill from the standing start, with the full train not surprisingly slipped to a stand. Progressively wagons were removed until we got down to 9 wagons where some effort was made for the model to lift that number, another one was taken off and the 30T started to move the load but kept slipping, before detaching any more of the hoppers, I put my figure fairly lightly on the rear of the dome with a slight downward pressure, with that the train slowly picked up and then went up the remaining 3metre rise without any trouble.

That same model was taken by the owner and he has a set of Casula CR, EHO and 2 HG vans which were able to pull without problems on hie 30inch radius 1:90 grade, which it should have anyway when all is said and done.

I got my prepaid model of Wombat at Liverpool and as yet to take it out of the box, but based on what I saw, I would be looking at how all the wheels sit on the track, also the distribution of the weight is therefore critical.  The finger pressure I put on the dome was very minimal but enough to start the model on the grade without any real effort was credible, that is the exact same situation as was happening with the Austrains 36cl on both runs.

The 30T's dome is primarily over the leading driving wheel and that light touch allowed the model to move off, when mine is unpacked and put to work I will be looking at adding weight inside the dome (For starters) even if I have to drill it out. I had issues with the 36cl, removing the bogie spring on them helped especially the first run models as I could put lead on the top of the bogies to keep on the rails without pressure from the spring, even half length springs, also I got the smokebox door off and cut a round piece of lead flashing and stuck inside that.

The second run 36's came out with a different chassis and was more prototypically correct around the front bogie, so while the chassis was a bit heavier overall it still had the sliping problems, and the lead flashing on top of the bogie would not work owing to the more correct frame cut out for wheel spaces,

The other difference though is that the 36's dome is more above the second driving wheel and not as per the 30T, meaning to me at least is to work on getting the weight correct and especially where its positioned.  Other aspect I would believe is that the snotty nosed versions with short smokebox would be lighter than the super versions based on the size of the smokebox, which will bring in some other areas to be checked when mine is finally up and running, I have a drumhead model.

Based on what I saw on Saturday, and the two different trains the 30T pulled, the long load on the flat, remembering that the models were U.S freight vehicles and being heavier is a fair load for the 30T. In saying that I remember and have a slide I took of saturated 3088 on the Rankins Springs branch with a full bogie empty wheat hopper train, consisting of 27 BWH/WH-BV and two bogie water gins and that was a big load, and very very rare really.   A superheated engine would do that work easier than the snotty.  

It then seems different when it comes to grades though, and depending on the layouts grade, track conditions and the curves its unlikely to pull what would be a prototypical load on grades as the get steeper.

When at Enfield we had 3009 and 3016, both superheated ex Cowra engines that had their 6 wheel tenders swapped off and 3650 gal tenders substituted and worked a morning Pax train to Richmond and back to Clyde sidings, it consisted of 8 cowboy cars and ran the TT no problems, these two engines replaced 32cl on that job.

What a model is intended for on a layout may well determine how good they perform. The intention for me is that my 30t will be the primary yard shunter with trip working to the nearby abattoirs, with perhaps the occasional short run elsewhere and on the school train. It should handle those duties when its up and running without issues especially as I do weight tests on it.
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
Here is a video if anybody is interested



VID01720 by Rod Young

I am out on Decoder Pro now trying to figure out how to soften the chuffs a bit and match the whistle to one I found on You Tube
Cheers
Rod
  sol Assistant Commissioner

Location: Evanston Gardens SA
That whistle sounds like a cat whose tail has been stepped on....
  a6et Minister for Railways

That whistle sounds like a cat whose tail has been stepped on....
sol
That's the problem when we use generic sounds, thing is though with sound decoders such as the TCS Wow and Tsunami there are a lot of whistles to choose from.  Some come very close to our loco's and not too bad although a lot don't in some areas.

Thing is that with many whistles and even air horns for Oz diesels there are a lot of those no longer on engines and unable to be recorded, also some have in respect to diesels had them retuned and sound very differently to how they were in service.

That said, I thought the sound on Rod's model sounded more like someone swinging a cat by the tail and with a weight on its collar.
  Lambing Flat Chief Train Controller

Location: My preference....... Central West NSW, circa 1955....
That whistle sounds like a cat whose tail has been stepped on....
sol
I was thinking how clever was Rod to get his galah to squawk on cue when he needed to whistle... Wink
  Lambing Flat Chief Train Controller

Location: My preference....... Central West NSW, circa 1955....
In all seriousness, Rod, while you don't mention which chip you have in there, if the options for whistles include a Nathan five-chime whistle, that is pretty close to the sound made by the standard NSWGR whistle. The other option is the whistle fitted to D&RGW K-36 No.487, which is also very close.
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
In all seriousness, Rod, while you don't mention which chip you have in there, if the options for whistles include a Nathan five-chime whistle, that is pretty close to the sound made by the standard NSWGR whistle. The other option is the whistle fitted to D&RGW K-36 No.487, which is also very close.
Lambing Flat
Hi
Yes I just found the sound samples for Tsunami 2.
Just listened to the K36 and Medium chuff and tried to convert the chip , however I now only hear a faint chuff and a crackle when I blow whistle.
Looks like I have broken the sound.
Furiously reading manual to see if I can get it back. All volume levels are unchanged Sad
Cheers
Rod

http://www.soundtraxx.com/dsd/tsunami2/sound/Steam-2_Sound_Selections.pdf

http://www.soundtraxx.com/dsd/tsunami2/tsu2steamsound.php
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
I also have some issues with Decoder pro using a PR4.
On advice I have disconectted the Soundtraxx booster and can now find the Ts-2  and new chuff and whistle seemed to save ok.
However sound muted regardless of F8 Also the function map has disappeared as well.
Cheers
Rod
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
Regarding the fitting of a Kadee to the front....

Many, many years ago I wrote an article which was published in AMRM, explaining the method I used to fit a modified Kadee to my brass and DJH steam locos.

It involved cutting off the large "loop" of the Kadee #5 (or others), filing the sides of the remaining shank down until it would fit snugly into a piece of 1/16" square brass tubing. This is the point where my method would vary for this type of Wombat loco...

In my original design, the 1/16" brass was cut to a length of approximately 15mm. A 0.5mm hole was drilled vertically through the brass/shank/brass just behind the back of the knuckle. This hole had a piece of 0.5mm brass wire inserted, glued and snipped off, leaving about 1mm exposed top and bottom. The buffer beam's hole was made square to accept the brass tube. The very rear of the brass tube was drilled horizontally with a 0.5mm hole. The coupler was assembled through the buffer beam, a piece of suitable spring was added (I found the spring from a cheap ball-point pen was ideal). The spring's length was just a tad longer than the distance from the back of the buffer beam to the horizontal hole. Once the spring was slid on to the brass tube, it was compressed so that the rear hole was exposed and another piece of 0.5mm brass wire was passed through. This last piece of brass wire is snipped off, exposing about 2mm each side of the hole. The result is a coupler that is self-centering, maintains its height and can swivel.

With a model like the Wombat, I would alter my design by drilling the rear hole vertically in a position that could utilise the model's own screw (that held the removable piece of buffer beam in situ). You wouldn't need the spring or the vertical piece of wire (which was used so that the knuckle of the coupler wouldn't be right back on the buffer beam, thus causing buffer lock).

Bear in mind that I write this never having seen a Wombat 30T, so forgive me if my description is deemed to be inappropriate.


Hope this helps some "modelers".....it won't help "plonkers" (who have to have everything handed to them on a plate).

Roachie
  yogibarnes Locomotive Fireman

And it works well Roachie. Well done.  I do the same.  The only thing we miss is the coupler swing (with self centreing) but an appropriate shank length will avoid buffer locking.
  The railway dog Junior Train Controller

I've used a lower tech approach using brass tube on a couple of locos. Do what it takes to get the tube in the right position, then slide a similarly modified Kadee in, with vertical holes drilled in the shank just beyond each end of the tube. Appropriate wire placed through the holes to secure the coupler & that's it.  Lack of coupler swing is an issue at times when shoving long (12 wheel passenger cars) through S shaped pointwork & some hand alignment can need doing to assist in coupling.
  The railway dog Junior Train Controller

I got round to fitting a front coupler.
A Kadee #156 coupler box attached to the front of the chassis gives the right coupler height. I just Araldited mine on. The modest surgery required is obvious when you look at the model. Of course a slot has to be filed in the buffer beam insert to accommodate the coupler shank, but I was able to save the coupling hook- not that you can really see it now. There is of course a shearing strain on the Araldited joint, but the engine & coupler copes with my longest train- 10 RUs, match truck & van. On the flat, don't have any grades.

I also separated the body from the chassis for the first time & several small metal plates fell out. It was difficult to refit them so I've done without. I hope I haven't done anything too bad?

And I can't work out how to get the tender's centre wheelset to turn. Trying it without the keeper plate doesn't help, I rigged up a small spring device to try to force the wheelset against the rail, no good.
  Oscar Train Controller

I also separated the body from the chassis for the first time & several small metal plates fell out. It was difficult to refit them so I've done without. I hope I haven't done anything too bad?

And I can't work out how to get the tender's centre wheelset to turn. Trying it without the keeper plate doesn't help, I rigged up a small spring device to try to force the wheelset against the rail, no good.
The railway dog

I had those plates fall out of mine too. I think they came from either side of the motor but I didn't reinstall them and I never noticed any difference in operation. They're too light to be extra weights so I think they just act as packing against the body shell, or rather firebox or boiler.

Regarding the centre axle of the tender, both my C30Ts the centre axle only rolls occasionally.  My plan was to glue a thicker patch of styrene on the underside of the keeper plate and file the depth of the keeper plate away where the axle and bearings would contact. It should allow the axle and bearings to drop slightly and the wheels to permanently contact the rails. Hopefully the weight of the axle and wheels alone will allow the wheels to roll freely but I've yet to try it. I will post results eventually.
  The railway dog Junior Train Controller

Hi Oscar
I tried running the tender without the centre axle keeper plate, which would allow the wheels to touch the rails. Still not much rotation, perhaps there's too much resistance in the bearings. I was also able to get a small piece of spring brass (part of a standard Kadee spring) under the bearings to force the wheelset against the rails, with no joy. Dunno what to do next.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
try putting some small weight around the axle perhaps so the wheel itself is weighed down  ?

Regards,
David Head
  Oscar Train Controller

Hi David, I agree heavier wheelsets would help but I'm not sure how it could be accomplished. There's simply no room to add weight to the axles without surgery to the undercarriage and modifying the keeper plate. The only other way would be to add weight to the back of the wheels, which again there's no real room, or add weight between the spokes which would obviously spoil the see through aesthetic of the spokes.

I did some tinkering last night and like you TRD eventually tried without the keeper plate and found no joy. Then I had a eureka moment and bent the pickups inwards and voila, kind of. An improvement but not a solution. I was amazed though that the lightly sprung pickups provide enough friction to limit the wheels turning at times. What I found then was that the centre wheels would turn all the time but the outer axles would occasionally stop. I turned to my second unmodded tender and bent all the pickups away from the wheels and again found improvements but this tender's wheels don't freely drop and will stall on all but the flattest of tracks. The obvious thing next is to remove all keeper plates and bend all pickup contacts out of the way. Finally, success. The bushings probably add a bit more friction but I don't think I'll touch them.

But what about all wheel pickup and the fact the engine doesn't work without the tender plugged in. I removed all tender wheels, plugged in the connector and the engine works on it's own pickups. As far as I can tell, and my electrical knowledge is meh, the tender is wired in series with the engine. Not the best explanation but it needs to be connected and despite the lack of a live tender, all lights work. Not sure how it affects DCC operation.

In a nutshell, no pickups, no keeper plates worked. However it's a temp solution and not without its drawbacks. Obviously the next thing to try is to modify all the keeper plates to allow all wheels to drop a little but one will still be left without tender pickups.

Here's a rundown of what I did in pics.


Original mod on 3004's tender, remove middle keeper plate.
https://flic.kr/p/2bVFiYk

I used plumbing MEK to glue 3 layers of 0.8mm to the underside of the keeper plate. Two layers would've been sufficient. Then I filed away at the inside of the keeper plate.
https://flic.kr/p/2axHBDw

The axle is 2mm and bushings 3mm so enough material was removed to accomodate them.
https://flic.kr/p/2axHxzu

There was still some stalling even after removing the keeper plate so I tried bending in the contacts of the middle wheel.
https://flic.kr/p/2cdjNbw

This video shows the unmodded 3063 tender on the left and 3004's tender with modified keeper plate and bent contacts on the centre axle only.  3004's centre axle rolls freely.



https://youtu.be/dIXFUWhCsW8

Bending 3063's middle contacts made a small improvement but the unmodded keeper plate doesn't allow wheel drop.
https://flic.kr/p/Py8QLx

All keeper plates removed and all pickups bent. After this pic I had to continually work on the outer wheels' contacts to where they were more uniformly against the chassis. In this photo the angled bends still contacted the wheels.
https://flic.kr/p/2cdpAZo

But after mucking round with the pickups some more, only the rears were slightly touching the wheels but a huge improvement.



https://youtu.be/3268_WEXZUA


The test rig...

https://flic.kr/p/2axHyB9

And finally, a Wombat run by from last night. You can see how undulating my track is at the moment...


https://youtu.be/m6Mu_TvpLtk
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
Well done, Oscar.

My own fix (kludge) was to pull off the middle keeper plate, take out the wheelset, pull a wheel off, remove brass sleeve bearings and replace. Bend centre pickups so they no longer contact tyres. Middle wheel now revolves perfectly (with a small wobble, but I can live with that, better than having the brakes jammed on permanently).
  a6et Minister for Railways

I wonder how the model would go by bending the brass strips used as pick ups right away from the wheels, and see how the tender rolls then, do it on both sides so its basically free wheeling and nothing inhibiting it.  I remember a lot of angst against the way that Austrains and TOR had with the size of the pickups on the tenders of the 35cl and the 32cl, although I never had any issues with them though.  The models that had the biggest problems for me were the Austrains FS & BS carriages, as they refused to roll down past my 1:40 grades, that was caused by the terrible electrical pickups for the axles that had different axle point shapes.

With the built in pick ups that come with the model try using some spring brass or nickel silver wire by soldering onto the original pick ups and bend the ends onto the inside of the wheels with the ends just touching.

Do the axles have brass bearing caps in the axle boxes?
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
I wonder how the model would go by bending the brass strips used as pick ups right away from the wheels, and see how the tender rolls then, do it on both sides so its basically free wheeling and nothing inhibiting it.
a6et

I tried that at first, but there's still too much friction in the brass sleeve bearings, so the wheel/axle still locks up. I'll try boring out the bearings with a clockmaker's brooch to make them looser when I get a round tuit. This would eliminate the lateral wobble.
  Oscar Train Controller

I tried that too a6et. The only way I could get all wheels to roll without hesitation is to let the wheels have some vertical freeplay, ie by removing the keeper plates as well as bending the contacts out of the way. The result's in that second video, but I did a so-so job of bending the contacts on the rear axle set hence the slight drag of the wheel at 11 seconds.


But, you've got me thinking now with your posts apw5910. I wasn't thinking the bearings were part of it but now I'm going to let things sit for a while and come back to it again later. I'm reluctant to try and modify the bearings without suitable replacements in case I screw things up.
  a6et Minister for Railways

I wonder how the model would go by bending the brass strips used as pick ups right away from the wheels, and see how the tender rolls then, do it on both sides so its basically free wheeling and nothing inhibiting it.

I tried that at first, but there's still too much friction in the brass sleeve bearings, so the wheel/axle still locks up. I'll try boring out the bearings with a clockmaker's brooch to make them looser when I get a round tuit. This would eliminate the lateral wobble.
apw5910
Make sure the bearing profile is the same as for the axle point of the wheel sets.  That was the problem with the Austrains carriages, the axle points were ok but the soft metal straps that were a combo of electrical pickup for the internal lights, and a divot for the axle bearing, two problems existed and they were the metal was too soft and bent out of the sides, giving a real sloppy movement, try to bend them back and first main curve you came to and they went out of shape again.  

The bearing divot instead of matching the shape/angles of the axle's pin point were more like a rounded helmet, the axles/wheels flopped around in the bearings and tended not to free roll as a result. Its not possible to take the strip out and put a new brass top hat bearing in, as the whole axle is too short for that mod.
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
The bearings are two sleeves enclosing the axle behind the wheels. There are no pin points. The axles are cut flat with the outer face of the wheel.
  The railway dog Junior Train Controller

The sleeves provide a very generous bearing surface. Rather than enlarge their inner diameter, would it be better to shorten the sleeves?
I think someone should try this first & let me know how they get on.

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