8606 & 4615

 
  a6et Minister for Railways

You may be thinking 85s because they looked a bit like an 80 , sort of , and were painted similar colours .
BDA
From my memory there was some confusion and a couple of problems with the directing the 85's into unwired roads, & as 2LaGrange mentions there was a couple of the 85's fitted with an illuminated E for identification purposes.

The problem stemmed from the decision to locate the Marker lights to above the windscreens starting from the 80cl, and then following that with the 85 and then the 86's.  While the front on appearances were similar, there was enough subtle differences to distinguish the 3 classes apart in the daylight hours, but at Night, that was where the primary problems came about as the marker lights, were pretty well in the same spot in each case, likewise the splitting of the headlight bulbs to either side attempted to make some difference as well.

Another aspect that came up was the use of what is now called ditch lights and they are seemingly left on at all times from what I have observed over the years.  Thing was when they first came out, on the 80 & 81classes, they were only ever classed as Fog lights, and in the main were only used for that purpose, owing there not being the reflective glare in fogs when only the main headlights were used, the lower fitted fog lights cut through fog without the same amount of reflective glare.

Another aspect that enginemen in those earlier days, would mostly turn the headlights down to dim where there was roads running alongside the line when cars approaching were seen, I do not see that happening these days.

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  aussiealco Station Master

Location: Bathurst NSW
G'day,
I snapped a shot of 8606 back towards the end of the good ole days at LMC.
Possied over the drop pit.
It was easier to sneak around with a camera on night shift as fewer staff, especially management, would be around.

Steve.
Hmm, still having problems with links not working.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures/110203/Freightcorp%208606%20LMC%20may%201998.JPG
Trying again.
  SydneyCider Train Controller

Thanks for sharing!

The photo didn't come up in the post but the link worked.

Although I personally found the freightcorp blue and yellow horrid on the 46's and 85's I actually think it looks pretty good on the 86's. Can tell from a long way away which loco it is, can't miss those huge white numbers.
  aussiealco Station Master

Location: Bathurst NSW
G'day,
Yes, the large loco numbers does make it easy to identify units from afar.
I did prefer the original Freightcorp blue scheme.
But, the Only Scheme hasta be the Trad NSWR indian red.
Actual fog lamps have a different convergence angle to Ditch Lights ( aka today Visibility Lights).
Today, Visibility lights must be exhibited at all times.
The headlight may be dimmed to low beam when passing another train providing that All Visibility Lamps are illuminated.
Gone are the days of "stealth running" during fog.
"Why you got that headlight ON, don't ya know where you is going" ?, the usual comment from the driver.
I had watched with amusement at crews attempting to work electrics into the Wrong Arrival Road at LMC on a number of occasions.
These usually being during night time.
BOING !
Though, the 46'ers going Boing was much more entertaining than 85 or 86 class.
Ball levers finally installed at them points did deter further expeditions up the wrong road with electrics.
But, from then on you had to hold that lever for all diesels entering the place.
That made shunting the front of the shed a tad more difficult.
Steve.
  SydneyCider Train Controller

I wonder what speed limits are imposed on 8606? The Heritage F1 set has an imposed maximum speed of 80 km/h on it - despite the fact that in service they probably did hit 100. It has been discussed in another thread that the speed limit is so that not as much stress is placed on the older motors. A heritage suburban W or interurban U set will probably have a speed limit of around 100 km/h on them and I imagine that any operational heritage 46 class units would probably be limited to around 95 - 100 km/h. In service I read 46's had a maximum permissible speed of 105 km/h. 8606 as a heritage unit might have a higher limit perhaps 105 - 110 km/h.
  a6et Minister for Railways

I wonder what speed limits are imposed on 8606? The Heritage F1 set has an imposed maximum speed of 80 km/h on it - despite the fact that in service they probably did hit 100. It has been discussed in another thread that the speed limit is so that not as much stress is placed on the older motors. A heritage suburban W or interurban U set will probably have a speed limit of around 100 km/h on them and I imagine that any operational heritage 46 class units would probably be limited to around 95 - 100 km/h. In service I read 46's had a maximum permissible speed of 105 km/h. 8606 as a heritage unit might have a higher limit perhaps 105 - 110 km/h.
SydneyCider
The old rattlers as well as the W and U sets in regular service were 70mph runners, just like steam loco's such as the 35, 36 & 38cl were 70mph/115Kmh runners.  Although it depended on the track, for the higher speed they needed to be on a minimum of 94lb rail. In heritage work they are for some reason only allowed to run at 100Km/h, I read somewhere that the ARTC will only allow loco's on their track if they can run at a 80Km/h

As for the speed of the 46cl, they were exceptionally rough engines to ride on, and watching them at speed from outside the cab, they looked bad, jigging from side to side, but in cab was worse and the old rigid 90 degree backrest seats didn't help, on firemans side  you held onto the hand brake at speeds over 80K's. The rough riding was the result of the bogie and fixture arrangements with them and they were downgraded to the 65mph/105Km/h as a result.

When the line to Ncle was electrified past Gosford, and they were regularly rostered on the NCLE fliers, their roughness was exacerbated by what seemingly was good track and those senior drivers and their mates called out for diesels to put on the train and a ban of running over 80Km/h was placed on them.  

The roughest riding 36cl was better than many of the 46cl in smooth riding. On goods trains up to 60km/h they were ok but the pigs were still generally better and that's saying something.
  2LaGrange Train Controller

The assertion that ARTC restrict locomotives to 80km/hr is not correct.
The TOC manuals of ARTC/Syd Trains/CRN determine speeds of locomotives and rolling stock on their respective networks. Axel loading being one factor considered.

Plenty of locomotives are permitted to run at up to 115km/hr on certain routes including for example NRs, C44 and GT46Ace type locomotives. Plus many others.

Some operators elect to limit their locomotives to a speed of 80km/hr to preserve traction motor and suspension wear and tear on their fleet which increases greatly when pushing speeds up to 100km/hr or greater.

This is especially so with DC traction motors as hitting rough track or crossovers at high speeds can result in traction motor brushes bouncing and loosing contact with the commutator causing damage to commutators on motor armatures through arcing and flash overs. This resulting in ground relays.

Many drivers were taught to reduce notches (throttle position) which reduced the current flow while going over rough crossovers and pointwork to reduce the risk of damage to traction motor commutators.

It would make sense to restrict the 86/46 locomotives to 80km/hr for the same reason to preserve their traction motors.

Being used at the moment on work trains no real benefit to doing 100km/hr and rail sets being hauled are limited to 80km/hr anyway.
  a6et Minister for Railways

The assertion that ARTC restrict locomotives to 80km/hr is not correct.
The TOC manuals of ARTC/Syd Trains/CRN determine speeds of locomotives and rolling stock on their respective networks. Axel loading being one factor considered.

Plenty of locomotives are permitted to run at up to 115km/hr on certain routes including for example NRs, C44 and GT46Ace type locomotives. Plus many others.

Some operators elect to limit their locomotives to a speed of 80km/hr to preserve traction motor and suspension wear and tear on their fleet which increases greatly when pushing speeds up to 100km/hr or greater.

This is especially so with DC traction motors as hitting rough track or crossovers at high speeds can result in traction motor brushes bouncing and loosing contact with the commutator causing damage to commutators on motor armatures through arcing and flash overs. This resulting in ground relays.

Many drivers were taught to reduce notches (throttle position) which reduced the current flow while going over rough crossovers and pointwork to reduce the risk of damage to traction motor commutators.

It would make sense to restrict the 86/46 locomotives to 80km/hr for the same reason to preserve their traction motors.

Being used at the moment on work trains no real benefit to doing 100km/hr and rail sets being hauled are limited to 80km/hr anyway.
2LaGrange
From what I have been told by steam drivers the 35 & 36cl had an 80km/h restriction put on them, that was a few years back now and surprised me at the time, it could have been lifted now to a higher speed,  note I did not refer to any diesels in my post either.  One aspect also of the speeds that steam was allowed to run depended as I said on the track standards, but also by the size of the driving wheels. As such only the 35, 36 and 38 cl were allowed the 115Km/h speed while the 30 and 32 were 60mph. the 34c also were 70Mph but again only on track that could handle it.

As for the 46cl the speeds were reduced owing to their rough riding, again whether that still applies is something I have no idea of.
  2LaGrange Train Controller

Considering the thread subject is about 46/86 class I was referring to DC traction motors that both electric and diesel locomotives use and some of the reasoning behind limiting their speeds As for heritage Steam maybe a separate thread.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Considering the thread subject is about 46/86 class I was referring to DC traction motors that both electric and diesel locomotives use and some of the reasoning behind limiting their speeds As for heritage Steam maybe a separate thread.
2LaGrange
The basis of what I was referring to comes out of the reasoning behind the lower speeds of the 46cl to which I worked on more than enough in days past.  So if this is thread is about 46/86 cl then what has comparing with diesels got to do with the thread? Same question relating to what I said, likewise speed limiting is not just about the actual aspect of the locomotive itself, be that electric, diesel and even steam, but there are many other factors that also come into play.

So hope you don't mention other items to compare with on another thread, glass houses mate..
  SydneyCider Train Controller

8606 will be running the next work train on Monday night 26 November 2018. It will be travelling from Clyde Yards then to Berala via the Lidcombe loop then onto the Bankstown line, then through Sydenham onto the Illawarra Line to Martin Place. It will drop rail from Martin Place to Bondi Junction then eventually return to Clyde Yards again via Bankstown line during the early hours of Tuesday morning 27 November.

SETS facebook post with full details:-

https://www.facebook.com/setsAU/posts/1665440776889458


I'm guessing in the "old" days it would have travelled via Chullora and DELEC and the metropolitan goods line which runs alongside part of the Bankstown line, although as far as I understand this line is now de-electrified and parts of the overhead have been removed after electric locos were stopped in NSW in 2002.
  SydneyCider Train Controller

A slight change of schedule for 8606's work train, it will operate the following night instead (Tuesday, 27 November, rather than 26th)

https://www.facebook.com/setsAU/posts/1665440776889458
  SydneyCider Train Controller

8606 currently at work for the robel rail train rail drops from Martin Place and Bondi Junction. A shot shared on the SETS facebook page just now with 8606 at Central

https://www.facebook.com/setsAU/photos/a.617082005058679/1673417739425095/
  SydneyCider Train Controller

A shot shared on NSW Railways Past and Present facebook page by Chris Lithgow showing 4615 and the Lithgow Loco Depot back on 10 July 2018

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=203586533855801&set=gm.2836479889711139&type=3&permPage=1&ifg=1
  SydneyCider Train Controller

Some news which has surfaced indicates that members of SETS have acquired electric loco 8649 with a planned return to service in 2019. It is currently stored at Werris Creek. According to one person the latest issue of Motive Power states that 8649 is planned to be re-activated to join 8606 in 2019. Interesting question is whether the electric locos would be able to run on the new Sydney Metro system. If so, could open up a new avenue of use/work for them.

Post on facebook about this.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/NSWRailwaysPastandPresent/permalink/2836342213058240/
  SydneyCider Train Controller

Following from above, SETS have updated their web site with information about some of 8649's history and how they acquired the locomotive with plans to return it to service. This loco entered service on 04 October 1985 and was one of 18 withdrawn in 1997 due to discovery of cracks in the underframe, so that's just under 12 years of service.  

http://www.sets.org.au/fleet/index.php?id=8606
  SydneyCider Train Controller

SETS have made some interesting updates to their website's fleet listings page

http://www.sets.org.au/fleet/

In terms of locomotives, it seems more than one 86 is required for Sydney Trains works trains so 8649 will be reactivated early 2019 with possible/probable plans to restore and reactivate 8644 in 2020 as an operational backup unit for 8606 and 8649. Information about 8501. Also some information about 4627 and a moment before midnight save of interurban U set power car CF5001 from being scrapped.

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