C30T RTR HO scale - Wombat Models surprise release

 
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
If I was designing it from scratch, I'd have pickups on both sides of the drivers, since they occasionally slip and so are sort-of self-cleaning. I'd have uninsulated wheels on one side of the front bogie, which would be metal, and the tender (also metal) would have uninsulated wheels on the opposite side, with a wire to the motor. These wheels just go along for the ride, but provide enough current path to get over any dead spots the drivers might encounter. The tender has to be insulated from the engine, but that's not hard. That's how all my kitbashed/scratchbuilt steam locos are done and I've never had any problems. This totally avoids having any pickups dragging against unpowered wheels.

Or you can go all the way and have split axles (too much work).

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  Oscar Train Controller

PoidaGarratt - brilliant name Laughing made me laugh the other day but I forgot to mention it, and thanks for the comments.

apw5910, I sought to see if what you said was the case and found the bearings do turn, which surprised the hell out of me because I've admittedly become dismissive of the bearings as the thread's progressed.  If I'm honest I'm not too concerned by them after seeing the wheels turn after the mod but I placed the axles back in 3063's tender which is unmodded apart from the pickups. Turning them with my fingers showed the bearings turn consistently. Applying more and more pressure they'd grip the chassis eventually and stay still but yeah, I was surprised to see them turn. I've tried to look at both tenders rolling on the track and I can't tell what the bearings are doing but will concede that they do turn and induce friction. Out of interest I tried the same tender on inclines to test it's ability to roll freely and it takes a little shove on a 1 in 20 drop to maintain momentum. I haven't any experience with pinpoint axles on tenders DJP but if they roll freely like some rollingstock I have the tender would have accelerated down my 1 in 40 easily.

Regarding the freeplay that exists in my dremeled chassis I'd say it's no different to when we've tried the tender without keeper plates. In that scenario I couldn't line the wheels up on the track and plonk the tender down due to the outer pickups in the way so I had to load the wheels first in an upturned tender and each time I tried to hold them in place and put the tender on the track, the wheels would easily fall out under their own weight so I had to use an adhoc rerailer (ruler) to get the thing on. And when I lifted the tender, the wheels stayed put on the tracks.  To my altered bearing block, the dremel nicked the sides a couple of times for sure and removed paint but the overall width of that part which houses the bearing hasn't increased in size and induced more freeplay, it's just deeper than before. When I do my other tender I shall remove the chassis and do a better job so it's more obvious the width doesn't need to change, just the depth...and if I nick the sides again I'll paint them black so noone will know mwahaha! Nah I promise I wont cheat but the tolerance already there allows an axle to rise and fall easily.
  Oscar Train Controller

A few nights back I got a chance to finish off 3063's tender trying a slightly different method for altering the keeper plate by using a dremel bit and a different bit to mill the bearing block.  Results were as for 3004 but I wouldn't use the dremel again on the keeper plate which I'll detail below.


This is the bit I used on the keeper plate and chassis. I think the diameter was 2mm.

https://flic.kr/p/2dDSxKJ


After gluing two layers of styrene on the back of the keeper plate I milled sections out where the bearings could drop into. Unfortunately the dremel bit created a bit of heat which caused burring at the edges of the cut which required a fair amount of clean up with a file. A slower bit-speed may have worked but if I had to do another I'd simply manually cut the keeper plate in half with middle section removed and glue up to a backing plate.

https://flic.kr/p/2aXNjPL


Before I realised some remnant burring was fouling the bearings from dropping I cut a channel in the middle. Again the heat from the dremel caused more burring and deformed the keeper plate a bit and is why I would manually cut the middle section out if I had to do another, similar to the first one I did a couple of pages ago. But after more filing and removing burr this keeper plate worked.

https://flic.kr/p/RAwzBb


To the chassis, I wanted to mill the bearing blocks horizontally rather than vertically as I did last time. In order to do that the chassis has to be separated or lifted from the tender to clear the moulded axle boxes. I was going to disassemble the tender but despite instructions describing the procedure and a pic showing the tabs keeping it together, I just couldn't confidently do it. I reckon its one of those things that once you see someone do it, or you do it yourself successfully, you could confidently repeat it, but I felt like I was doing it all wrong. Nothing budged, so I left it.

In the end I removed two screws from the chassis/bearing block and lifted the bearing blocks slightly away from the tender. (NB the coupler does not need to be removed, and the bearing block is still attached by wires to the tender, so it's only going to lift a small amount, be cautious not to stress any part). I propped a screwdriver underneath as shown then proceeded to mill away at the bearing block.

https://flic.kr/p/2dDSvB5


The result is below, a bit deeper than needed. The horizontal milling was easier than vertical except a little more involved, but either way works.

https://flic.kr/p/2aXNiiQ


Something else to mention is that the keeper plate nearest the coupler is a tad smaller than the other two. I previously thought all were interchangeable but maybe not, I haven't tried. Just something else to note if you take them off all at once. But here's the modded keeper plate fitted. Although white and not painted, it's much lower profile than the grey ABS material I used on the first one so the appearance is much better, ie you can't really see it except from a very low perspective. The view through the spokes has been retained.

https://flic.kr/p/2aXNhHm


I've put together a 2 minute vid with the first half showing 3063 being trialled through the worst of my track with dips and what not, including some push-me-pull-you tests with 3004, then a couple of double headed runbys with a few wagons. I've not put a front coupler on to either of them yet. For the video I just used some light multistrand copper wire to act as a screw link/hook and loop kind of thing. Works great in forward motion only.



https://youtu.be/xXaxmlvipXg
  DJPeters Assistant Commissioner

I am not having a go at any one manufacturer here but all of them. When you make a steam loco with a tender then treat the tender as just another wagon or a 6 wheeled wagon which it is really. Yes add pick ups to it if needed, add an area for a speaker if needed, or a DCC plug for a chip, add a weight if needed inside the tender body. But under the underframe make it as simple as possible and still keep the model accurate. You do not have to redesign the wheel or worse and as one breakfast cereal manufacturer used to say "It is the simple things in life that are often the best".

I had a now deceased friend who was good at designing things but he tried to design into something things that compensated for something that it might never get used for in the first place. But then while he was designing and manufacturing the ultimate answer some else would come up with and build a lot simplier solution that did the job just as well and sometimes better than his ultimate design.

But glad to see there is a reasonably simple method to fix something that should not even need fixing on a brand new model in the first place.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Thanks apw5910 for the info on the re-railing jacks.
Thanks to Oscar for your well documented and detailed fix on the tender pickup issue.
Cheers.
PoidaGarratt
A bit of a late reply as the question coincided with a house move and NBN connection issues meaning near 2 weeks off the net.

Many NSWGR steam loco's had jacks available somewhere on the loco, note I say almost, as larger types needed much heavier jacks for rerailing and needed heavy lift breakdown cranes. The breakdown trains also carried many varied types of jacks for the different weights needed, also hydraulic types that were used to push a loco across and back onto the rails.

From my experience, not just the 30T, but also Standard goods engines had jacks usually on the tender back end on each side of the main tool box.  Some country based 32cl also had them in the same location on the tenders.  60class had two jacks of a different type located on both the front of the water tank and bunker, they were progressively removed from circa 1963 though.  Early books show them quite clearly. Castings of these jacks were available from Kerroby.

With the 30T they were placed on the running boards each side of the smokebox, reason was simple there was no room on the tender backheads for them, owing to the need for extra Main Reservoir tanks which were fitted on the backhead on each of the various types of tenders.

The jacks along with the slide bar covers were pretty well essential items found on those loco's likewise many 32cl had the slide bar covers especially on the Broken Hill line.  Only in the latter days of steam when the 30T's were removed from Line workings and confined to shunting duties in yards or short trips like at Dubbo out to the abattoirs were the slidebar covers removed as well as the jacks.
  a6et Minister for Railways

If I was designing it from scratch, I'd have pickups on both sides of the drivers, since they occasionally slip and so are sort-of self-cleaning. I'd have uninsulated wheels on one side of the front bogie, which would be metal, and the tender (also metal) would have uninsulated wheels on the opposite side, with a wire to the motor. These wheels just go along for the ride, but provide enough current path to get over any dead spots the drivers might encounter. The tender has to be insulated from the engine, but that's not hard. That's how all my kitbashed/scratchbuilt steam locos are done and I've never had any problems. This totally avoids having any pickups dragging against unpowered wheels.

Or you can go all the way and have split axles (too much work).
apw5910
APW, why go for a metal tender?  To me I find that its extra weight that is not really needed and affects the overall balance of the model in general, this is especially so for smaller loco's such as the 30t.  A decent Delrin or even Poly plastic is all that is needed for the tenders and are also able to have crisper detail on them.

My 30T will only be used for shunting and short trips to the abattoirs and back, maybe a school train if the CPH is out of action. Every extra bit of weight that is on a model especially a small steam loco needs to be over the drivers and main loco area, behind the loco body the more weight basically affects the load it can pull, especially on layouts with grades.

I have several Austrains 36cl, and have been able to get the early or first run models pulling nice loads on my 1:40 grades with some additional body weight and over the front bogie, thing is with the 2nd run and the 35cl I cannot do the bogie mod owing to the frame being different, and more prototypical looking which makes them look better, but its at the expense of what they pull on the same grades.

I agree though that as many pick ups as possible are needed, the key though I believe with the pickups especially on the tenders is the type of wire that is used for the purpose.  Too many have large stamped brass wipers that attach over the axles, to which I believe causes drag whereas shim brass or spring like brass wire (can't think of the correct name) bent against the inside of the wheels with just enough pressure to maintain contact lessens that drag.
  The railway dog Junior Train Controller

Oscar
As I understand it your modification still has the centre wheelset electrical contacts removed?
I want to keep them, currently at the cost of the bloody wheels not turning. I presume the wheels are touching the rails, most of the time anyway, but as has been discussed here friction prevents them turning.

Slidebar covers
A quick flick through the Ron Preston book on the 30 class shows shots of 30Ts without slidebar covers at various stages of their careers. But they were definitely the exceptions, the vast majority of engines had them.
  Oscar Train Controller

Hi TRD, yep the centre axles have had the contacts bent out the way. The other two axles still have contacts touching the wheels.To my mind, yes the centre contact helped the centre axle stall but I think now it's moreso from that wheelset not being able to touch the track all the times due to the lack of up and down movement prior to the mod.  After christmas I will see if bending the contacts back onto the centre wheels will make a difference. I will theorise that getting them to touch slightly will work, but getting the right tension will be difficult. It will also be difficult to prove whether the contacts are actually working or not regardless if the wheels keep turning. I say this because we saw earlier that the engine, although wont operate without tender, it doesn't need the contacts, but only needs the tender to be plugged into the engine. I haven't had any stalls with the engines plus two outer tender axles electrified only oeprating on DC in a dusty shed. But I understand the preference to have as many axles powered as possible.

A novice question for you all. I've known about slidebar covers for years now, mentioned in a few books and mags I have but I never knew why they were necessary. Could you a6et or someone expand on why they were necessary? What did they protect the valve gear from, or why did the 30 (I didn't know 32s had them), require them as opposed from other similar era locos?
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
A novice question for you all. I've known about slidebar covers for years now, mentioned in a few books and mags I have but I never knew why they were necessary. Could you a6et or someone expand on why they were necessary? What did they protect the valve gear from, or why did the 30 (I didn't know 32s had them), require them as opposed from other similar era locos?
Oscar
In dry, almost desert areas it helped keep the sand out of the slide bars/crosshead assembly. Most steam locos have very primitive lubrication, the "total loss" system, where you just pour oil on the running surfaces from a can. This is almost designed to catch ash and sand, create a sticky abrasive muck like valve-grinding paste and keep where you don't want it
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
APW, why go for a metal tender?
a6et
Poor wording on my part. I just meant the metal bogies should be electrically connected. Although an etched brass tender is probably going to weigh similar to a plastic bodied one. A diecast one will obviously weigh more, but I doubt it will have the stuck wheels problem.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Oscar
As I understand it your modification still has the centre wheelset electrical contacts removed?
I want to keep them, currently at the cost of the bloody wheels not turning. I presume the wheels are touching the rails, most of the time anyway, but as has been discussed here friction prevents them turning.

Slidebar covers
A quick flick through the Ron Preston book on the 30 class shows shots of 30Ts without slidebar covers at various stages of their careers. But they were definitely the exceptions, the vast majority of engines had them.
The railway dog
I would check the dates of the engines without them as against those with them.  Case point being 3009 which was a Cowra engine with 6 wheel tender, came to Enfield and was shopped and had the covers removed for a while, until it was returned to Cowra, and re-united with the 6 wheel tender. Then 3142 was sent there to replace the 32cl on the Booroowa branch.
  DJPeters Assistant Commissioner

You could if you moulded the tender and underframe in plastic use the muff type of arrangement for the wheels and axles that is a plastic muff with push in metal wheels to make it a simple wheelset and then make the metal bearings you need for such an arrangement the actual pick ups Athearn and other style brands used on diesel models these days. That would eliminate any drag from seperate pick up strips and if you use a lubricant that is electrically conductive like Peco Electrolube or similar type of lubricant then you have no worries about drag and non contact of pick ups. This would need two pieces of metal each side of the tender underframe though to act as the final pick up strip but the bearings ride in this strip and can be given enough movement so that all wheels stay on the track and revolve as well.

So really all you are doing is emulating a current diesel model bogie pick up arrangement but less the drive gears etc on a steam loco tender.
  Oscar Train Controller

A novice question for you all. I've known about slidebar covers for years now, mentioned in a few books and mags I have but I never knew why they were necessary. Could you a6et or someone expand on why they were necessary? What did they protect the valve gear from, or why did the 30 (I didn't know 32s had them), require them as opposed from other similar era locos?
In dry, almost desert areas it helped keep the sand out of the slide bars/crosshead assembly. Most steam locos have very primitive lubrication, the "total loss" system, where you just pour oil on the running surfaces from a can. This is almost designed to catch ash and sand, create a sticky abrasive muck like valve-grinding paste and keep where you don't want it
apw5910
Very interesting, dust/sand etc, not something I considered before.  I can imagine the kind of damage and wear to machined surfaces it could've done.  Thanks very much!
  a6et Minister for Railways

A novice question for you all. I've known about slidebar covers for years now, mentioned in a few books and mags I have but I never knew why they were necessary. Could you a6et or someone expand on why they were necessary? What did they protect the valve gear from, or why did the 30 (I didn't know 32s had them), require them as opposed from other similar era locos?
In dry, almost desert areas it helped keep the sand out of the slide bars/crosshead assembly. Most steam locos have very primitive lubrication, the "total loss" system, where you just pour oil on the running surfaces from a can. This is almost designed to catch ash and sand, create a sticky abrasive muck like valve-grinding paste and keep where you don't want it
Very interesting, dust/sand etc, not something I considered before.  I can imagine the kind of damage and wear to machined surfaces it could've done.  Thanks very much!
Oscar
Oscar, not just sand/dust, but the etc's included such things as ash dust which many branch lines had for ballast, other lines actually sat very much on bull dust like dirt, even the front wheel of the bogie would be enough to allow the track/sleeper to drop down and blow the dust up onto the slide bars.

Many engines ended up with slide bar slap, that is the wear on the bars, especially the bottom one was of such that the slide rod, into the piston would rise & drop giving a slapping sound and you could feel it in the cab when bad enough.
  The railway dog Junior Train Controller

Hi Oscar
Thanks for the considered reply. Yes, it would be difficult to get a minimal force on the pickups, & it wouldn't really be possible to find out if they work anyway. That applies to the original arrangement I've still got too, of course. I just assume the wheels are skimming along the track making an electrical connection. Maybe they 'aint.
  Oscar Train Controller

Thanks a6et for extra info on slidebar covers.

And TRD, I was checking out the remaining stock of Ixon 32s earlier, thinking I might get one of the six wheeled tender versions and try the mod on one of those just so we can see if the mod can work without fooling around with the contacts. One of my 30T's tender has had all its contacts bent at some stage and it's nigh impossible to get the right spring force back into them as they had when they left the factory. So another try on an unmolested 6 wheel tender should be a fair test.  But it will have to wait till next year. It's already christmas as I type and I really need to get to bed due to work later today. And no I'm not Santa Laughing
  The railway dog Junior Train Controller

Oscar
As a now retired but once upon a time Christmas Day worker myself I salute you!
  Spinner5711 Train Controller

Not in my area of knowledge.
But this image  ( above) of 3009 is one of the best presented locos I have ever seen.

It looks like a loco in service to me and with a light dusting and a few oil and liquid streaks would be popular on any layout.

So many other locos look like plastic locos, so my vote is for 3009

If my tax cheque comes in fast enough I will get one. It will undergo trials on exchange with the SAR.

The SAR equivalent the RX had a load of less than 200 tons over the hills.
**What sort of loads were these locos rated at on heavily graded lines. **

I went on a tour with double RX hauling 12 carriages, but at other times they were restricted to 3 carriages ( 27ton each ) plus a brake through the hills.

Well done Wombat. A great start to your production.
"A 30 class has the following loads on a 1 in 40 grade.

C-30 Saturated (C-30 Tank and C-30T): 190 tons.

C-30 Superheated (C-30TS): 190 tons.

Cowan Bank load is 175 tons for both, perhaps due to short steeper sections on that grade.

There are other sections where 160 tons is the specified load for both types."

I've just bought a copy of the 1949 NSWGR General Loads & Instructions book.  This gives loads for Saturated 30 Class (both tank & tender) and in special note states to add 10% for Superheated 30T Class loads.  it also states that allowances fro locomotive time will be the same as for 32 Class Locomotives, when a tender of more than 3,000 gallons capacity is fitted.
Spinner5711
  a6et Minister for Railways

Not in my area of knowledge.
But this image  ( above) of 3009 is one of the best presented locos I have ever seen.

It looks like a loco in service to me and with a light dusting and a few oil and liquid streaks would be popular on any layout.

So many other locos look like plastic locos, so my vote is for 3009

If my tax cheque comes in fast enough I will get one. It will undergo trials on exchange with the SAR.

The SAR equivalent the RX had a load of less than 200 tons over the hills.
**What sort of loads were these locos rated at on heavily graded lines. **

I went on a tour with double RX hauling 12 carriages, but at other times they were restricted to 3 carriages ( 27ton each ) plus a brake through the hills.

Well done Wombat. A great start to your production.
"A 30 class has the following loads on a 1 in 40 grade.

C-30 Saturated (C-30 Tank and C-30T): 190 tons.

C-30 Superheated (C-30TS): 190 tons.

Cowan Bank load is 175 tons for both, perhaps due to short steeper sections on that grade.

There are other sections where 160 tons is the specified load for both types."

I've just bought a copy of the 1949 NSWGR General Loads & Instructions book.  This gives loads for Saturated 30 Class (both tank & tender) and in special note states to add 10% for Superheated 30T Class loads.  it also states that allowances fro locomotive time will be the same as for 32 Class Locomotives, when a tender of more than 3,000 gallons capacity is fitted.
Spinner5711

The loads for the 30 no matter whether tender or tank, snotty nosed or superheated were governed by several factors, and that was the same with almost all steam loco's.  The 1:40 grades if you look across the various ones across the state you will find the likes of Tumulla, West Ryde to Hornsby, Ardglen, Loftus the primary reason was not just the load but the curvature of the track causing drag.

I could never work out the reasoning why the Superheated 30T's could not haul a greater load than the snotty nosed versions, as one only had to work on them to know the difference.  In fact I found a super 30T was as good as a 32 on local pax services, we had one every morning when I was at Enfield and when 3009 was brought to Enfield from Cowra, it was rostered on the particular job every morning, LE to Clyde, pick up carriages and work to Richmond repeat on return, 3009 or other Super 30 would do as well as the 32cl. The other aspect also was they were much better riding engines as well.
  catchpoint Assistant Commissioner

Location: At the end of a loop
Did anyone sight the Wombat Models 30T "bogie tender" sample at the recent Hills Model Railway Exhibition as noted on their FB page?

Regards,

Catchpoint
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
Did anyone sight the Wombat Models 30T "bogie tender" sample at the recent Hills Model Railway Exhibition as noted on their FB page?

Regards,

Catchpoint
catchpoint
Its overdue, its shared with 32 Class isn't it? I might get one if they are at RoseHill
Cheers
Rod
  catchpoint Assistant Commissioner

Location: At the end of a loop
Did anyone sight the Wombat Models 30T "bogie tender" sample at the recent Hills Model Railway Exhibition as noted on their FB page?

Regards,

Catchpoint
Its overdue, its shared with 32 Class isn't it? I might get one if they are at RoseHill
Cheers
Rod
comtrain

I doubt that they will "be available" at Epping / Rosehill

Here is the link to FB post / announcement https://bit.ly/2JJhiRw

Make of it what you will, meanwhile over at Ixion.....

Regards,
Catchpoint
  PoidaGarratt Station Staff

I am hoping that the bogie tenders might be available as an individual purchase to replace the original 6 wheel tender.
Having gone to all the trouble to get my tender free-rolling, as previous posts have described, there is an issue as the loco rolls, the tender wobbles, as one or more of the wheels are not concentric on the axles. Noticeable if viewed close up, but not a major concern otherwise.
Poida.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

To the chassis, I wanted to mill the bearing blocks horizontally rather than vertically as I did last time. In order to do that the chassis has to be separated or lifted from the tender to clear the moulded axle boxes. I was going to disassemble the tender but despite instructions describing the procedure and a pic showing the tabs keeping it together, I just couldn't confidently do it. I reckon its one of those things that once you see someone do it, or you do it yourself successfully, you could confidently repeat it, but I felt like I was doing it all wrong. Nothing budged, so I left it.
Oscar

Bumping this thread to ask about dismantling the 6-wheel tender. I bought an Ixion C32 with the 6-wheel tender (which is the ex-Shrike tender, as used on the Wombat C30T). I have made Oscar’s mods to the centre axle suspension and everything works nicely. Along the way, I had a skidding rear axle which was found to be mislocated bearings jammed by the keeper plate. A simple fix.

I now want to remove the tender top to dull the LED marker lights that are white and about ten magnitudes too bright, and look silly. The Ixion instruction sheet and diagram only shows the Ixion 8-wheel tender. How is the Wombat tender top secured? Is it just with 3 clips each side, as per the Ixion 8-wheel tender? Thanks.
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
Save yourself a bit of grief and just touch them up with a black or brown Sharpie pen.

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