Rail Revival Study: Geelong - Ballarat - Bendigo

 
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
Sesame Street having openly gay muppets will happen sooner than the reopening of the Geelong - Ballarat line to passengers.
TOQ-1
You've overlooked Spongebob Squarepants.

And the gay TellyTubby, Tiny Winky

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  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Why is the idea of a train between Geelong and Ballarat so unappealing to yard here ?

It is a natural service with the infrastructure already in place.
  trainbrain Deputy Commissioner

Why is the idea of a train between Geelong and Ballarat so unappealing to yard here ?

It is a natural service with the infrastructure already in place.
freightgate
no bums on seats...……………………………………...
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Why is the idea of a train between Geelong and Ballarat so unappealing to yard here ?

It is a natural service with the infrastructure already in place.
freightgate
No the Infrastructure Is not all In place !

Current standard gauge conversion plans, does not permit such a service at all, and would require big $ to make a Geelong - Ballarat service possible.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
People don’t like taking coaches. Build the line and they will come
ptvcommuter
Vline services lose money, due to woefully inadequate fares.

Converting the coach service to a rail service would result in an even greater loss.

The only possible justification would be if the rail service saved money over the coach service.

It wouldn't, so end of story.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Vline services lose money, due to woefully inadequate fares.
ZH836301

The fares as a percentage of their contribution to V/Line's ticket box won't be changing any time soon.

And looking at the fares revenue solely on a cost and loss basis is simply a 20th century conservative government policy that's long had its day.

V/Line and METRO carry more pax now than ever, in part due to affordable fares and to steeply increase fares in a futile attempt to make the train services revenue neutral would see already choked roads even more choked and masses of unemployed office workers who would no longer be able to afford the cost of going to work, therefore many would become unemployed .

Consequently and don't laugh because this would happen, many would become a serious drain on the taxpayer as they sit at home on the dole, with increasing levels of depression and initially some would even turn to drugs, crime or prostitution in an attempt to supplement their meagre unemployment benefit.

Mike.
  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner

Maryborough has 2 trains in each direction per day. It has 3 daily coaches, but these go to Castlemaine, not Ballarat (there are Ballarat direct coaches but these run very early in the morning or late at night, or only run some days).

If you are looking to go to Ballarat for the day, it becomes a full day trip.

Ararat - Ballarat seems to get quite a bit of local travel, the reason being you can make a return trip just for the morning or afternoon, whether by coach or train. Maryborough and Echuca don't have the same luxury. Frequency is Freedom!
It's a shame single car Sprinters are not available. Then maybe could justify double the Maryborough frequency.
A 3 car V/Lo is a waste for under 10 pax per trip.

cheers
John
justarider
Why in the hell are they using 3 car V/los when these can be used for the Busier Geelong services or even the Seymour Services? Use Sprinters for the Maryborough services or upcycle those old carriages when they are due for scrap and run them. Vlocities for the Maryborough run, what a waste.

Michael
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Maryborough has 2 trains in each direction per day. It has 3 daily coaches, but these go to Castlemaine, not Ballarat (there are Ballarat direct coaches but these run very early in the morning or late at night, or only run some days).

If you are looking to go to Ballarat for the day, it becomes a full day trip.

Ararat - Ballarat seems to get quite a bit of local travel, the reason being you can make a return trip just for the morning or afternoon, whether by coach or train. Maryborough and Echuca don't have the same luxury. Frequency is Freedom!
It's a shame single car Sprinters are not available. Then maybe could justify double the Maryborough frequency.
A 3 car V/Lo is a waste for under 10 pax per trip.

cheers
John
Why in the hell are they using 3 car V/los when these can be used for the Busier Geelong services or even the Seymour Services? Use Sprinters for the Maryborough services or upcycle those old carriages when they are due for scrap and run them. Vlocities for the Maryborough run, what a waste.

Michael
mejhammers1
Yes if VLP were flexible in their thinking they would alter  both Bendigo - Echuca and Ballarat - Maryborough to two car coupled Sprinters or two car V/Locity units (we did have 18 of them remember .) The operational savings on the Echuca leg would be over $ 750,000 per annum !!!!  V/Line does not allow single unit Sprinter operation account track circuit and level crossing activation issues . By reducing train sizes down to two car units on both lines then the opex savings can be directed to running extra trips earning additional revenue -  WIN / WIN instead of lose  !!!

Incidentally Metro allow single Sprinter operation between frankston and Stony Point with all lx activation by axle counters, so potentially with axle counter activation of lx protection on the Ballarat - Maryborough leg where the patronage is very low then Single Sprinter operation may be achievable .  With Echuca two car sets are  agood match, but 3 is overkill .
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

While we are mentioning Echuca, have the level crossing upgrades between Bendigo and Echuca been fully activated yet? I understand they are all in place and that the line is now capable of 115 kph running with V Locities. So why are they still only doing 80kph?!
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Just replace Ararat with future Dimboola and Hamilton covering. And replace Maryborough with Geelong-Ballarat Line with some services extending to Maryborough.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Just replace Ararat with future Dimboola and Hamilton covering. And replace Maryborough with Geelong-Ballarat Line with some services extending to Maryborough.
ptvcommuter

Running Geelong to Maryborough is surely the way to go but how would you manage the Dimboola and Hamilton services?

Would you hub these out of Ballarat?
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Just replace Ararat with future Dimboola and Hamilton covering. And replace Maryborough with Geelong-Ballarat Line with some services extending to Maryborough.

Running Geelong to Maryborough is surely the way to go but how would you manage the Dimboola and Hamilton services?

Would you hub these out of Ballarat?
x31
On what gauge? As mentioned numerous times in this thread Geetroit to Ballarat is going to be standardised in the next couple of years. So what, a couple of orphan SG Velo sets which need to be brought to Melbourne via Geelong for maintenance?

And that is putting aside all of the other issues with running pax trains on that leg like station rebuilds and LXs which have also been mentioned above.

I really can't see Geelong > Ballarat happening any time soon. And I amongst others on this thread very much doubt there is sufficient demand to justify it at this time. It will be another 20 years I reckon before you get even close and that should only be if an expanded coach service between the 2 is bursting at the seams.

BG
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

I really can't see Geelong > Ballarat happening any time soon. And I amongst others on this thread very much doubt there is sufficient demand to justify it at this time. It will be another 20 years I reckon before you get even close and that should only be if an expanded coach service between the 2 is bursting at the seams.

BG
BrentonGolding

Bannockburn at this time is the only locality that's growing significantly along the corridor and even with that, the local McHarry's bus service that has Geelong's buses sewn up haven't instigated a service out there even though it's only 24Km from Geelong station.

So...it's got a lot of growing to do before trains are reintroduced.

A little something to whet appetites from 90 years ago, thanks again to Mark Bau.

https://www.victorianrailways.net/timetables/1928country/47_48.html

Mike.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Why in that case are Vicroads looking to $500m to duplicate the highway?  There are masses driving that highway between geelong and ballarat.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
The fares as a percentage of their contribution to V/Line's ticket box won't be changing any time soon.
Vinelander

Then don't expect some super expensive dedicated high-speed line.


Consequently and don't laugh because this would happen, many would become a serious drain on the taxpayer as they sit at home on the dole, with increasing levels of depression and initially some would even turn to drugs, crime or prostitution in an attempt to supplement their meagre unemployment benefit.
Vinelander

Melodramatic much.  

Why should one group be advantaged over those who don't have access to decent public transport and are forced to pay considerably more for their transport through driving.


Why is the idea of a train between Geelong and Ballarat so unappealing to yard here ?

It is a natural service with the infrastructure already in place.
freifghtgate
Is there an hourly coach service overflowing with patronage?

Would you like to tell people there's no hospital bed for them because the state's budget is being wasted on superfluous garbage?


Why in that case are Vicroads looking to $500m to duplicate the highway?  There are masses driving that highway between geelong and ballarat.
bevans

Freight.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
The fares as a percentage of their contribution to V/Line's ticket box won't be changing any time soon.

Then don't expect some super expensive dedicated high-speed line.


Consequently and don't laugh because this would happen, many would become a serious drain on the taxpayer as they sit at home on the dole, with increasing levels of depression and initially some would even turn to drugs, crime or prostitution in an attempt to supplement their meagre unemployment benefit.

Melodramatic much.  

Why should one group be advantaged over those who don't have access to decent public transport and are forced to pay considerably more for their transport through driving.

ZH836301

So...in a futile attempt to increase cost recovery, you support several thousand more cars travelling daily on already over choked roads and freeways OR people not travelling to work at all, because operating a car on a daily basis is WAY more expensive than taking PT to work and many peoples budget wouldn't stretch that far.

Moreover, because at present...and in all likelihood increasing going forward, you are not in favour of trains continually building their patronage as you consider people should ALL be driving OR paying the full cost of the provision of the public transport service.

And even more so, if people make a conscious decision to live where fixed rail PT is non-existent, why should the government bail them out Question

You really have put yourself in a difficult and very lonely space.

Mike.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Again how many times do I have to post  the same info multiple times. Search for Wimmera Transport Study and the game plan is all there in great detail timetables and all.

SG only beyond Ballarat to Ararat, sg only Ballarat to Maryborough. Sg only Ballarat to Geelong.

Fleet of 6 sg vl sets based and maintained at Ballarat West run. Weekdays.

Ballarat - Ararat. 6 trips. Horsham 4 trips Hamilton 3 trips Maryborough 3 trips

Horsham _ Hamilton 2 trips cross plat change Ararat

Through pax to Melb same platform connections Up nd Down at Ballarat.

Geelong -  Ballarat shuttles future option with extra sg vl sets and separate 3rd sg track added between Nth Geelong and Geelong.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Why in that case are Vicroads looking to $500m to duplicate the highway?  There are masses driving that highway between geelong and ballarat.
bevans
The proposed highway duplication Is only between the Princes Freeway and Bannockburn
https://vicroads.mysocialpinpoint.com/midland-highway-phase-2#/
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Re Bendigo To Echuca lx are finally four years late all protected but promised increased 100kmh line speed VLP deny ever making so for time being we still plod along with 80kmh tfn.

Bendigo line upgrade project provides funding to upgrade signalling in Bendigo area to absolute block with presumably two position colour light signalling between Bendigo and Eaglehawk and Bendigo and Epsom.  Additionally funding to upgrade Nth Bendigo to Echuca to class 2 track allowing 130kmh, all to be complete by early 2021, but remember VLP is doing job so dont hold your breath !!!
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

What’s this about the Geelong to Ballarat Line becoming only SG, I haven’t heard anything about that
Just build an SG Line adjacent to the exisiting Ballarat Line for these Overland and future Dimboola Trains would be easier than running them via Geelong which takes longer and is ridiculous.

Can build a new SG track with crossing loops between Ararat and Sunshine, keep the BG track existing on the Ararat to Ballarat for Hamilton services

Geelong-Ballarat-Maryborough as BG with exisiting Vlos as intercity service
Dimboola, Freight and Overland via new SG tracks
Hamilton on existing BG tracks to Melbourne with high Speed Ballarat/Wendouree Trains
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
What’s this about the Geelong to Ballarat Line becoming only SG, I haven’t heard anything about that
Just build an SG Line adjacent to the exisiting Ballarat Line for these Overland and future Dimboola Trains would be easier than running them via Geelong which takes longer and is ridiculous.
ptvcommuter
It is called the Murray Basin Project - there is a thread on it here on Railpage.   It is for grain to get to Geelong from up north, nothing to do with passenger trains.  
Freight actually makes the dollars tick over, not passengers.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
The current plan I believe is to dual gauge the line but failing that why not just place the SG track to the immediate west of the current BG track in the current corridor?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

@ptvcommuter - you seriously underestimate the fun and games of “just” building an SG line from Ararat to Sunshine via the Marsh. For what, 3 passenger trains a day? Why???

Please take the time to do a bit of background reading before derailing yet another thread with a bonkers drawing-lines-on-maps exercise.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

The current plan I believe is to dual gauge the line but failing that why not just place the SG track to the immediate west of the current BG track in the current corridor?
x31
It will be converted to plain old SG, not DG or a parallel SG line.  Why would VLP want to over-complicate and over-invest after the shambles of MBRP Stg 2?
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Re Bendigo To Echuca lx are finally four years late all protected but promised increased 100kmh line speed VLP deny ever making so for time being we still plod along with 80kmh tfn.

Bendigo line upgrade project provides funding to upgrade signalling in Bendigo area to absolute block with presumably two position colour light signalling between Bendigo and Eaglehawk and Bendigo and Epsom.  Additionally funding to upgrade Nth Bendigo to Echuca to class 2 track allowing 130kmh, all to be complete by early 2021, but remember VLP is doing job so dont hold your breath !!!
kuldalai
Probably belongs in another thread...

FWIW, the main thing holding back >80 km/h running is that it's "Class 4" track largely on account of the lightweight and old 80 lb rail between much of Epsom and Elmore.  The word on the street is that it's going to be replaced with heavier rail, lots of new concrete sleepers, plus some canting of corners (i.e. near Huntly) and so forth to get it to Class 2.  This track work might all happen in 2019 and be finished by the end of this year.  Signalling 12 months later.  It's feasible/possible we might have 130 km/h trains on the Echuca line in 12 months time.  Unless of course VLP get lazy and don't bother to do this until everything is done...

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