Clyde extension should not wait 10-15 years to get built

 
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

If you think pumping extra dandenong trains via frankston is viable, it won't. Both track pairs are full, hence the need for a third. all the way from the SE to South Yarra post MM1.

Sponsored advertisement

  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
It's a joke john:lol:
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

For more detail

Clyde Extension and Pakenham Line run along exisiting tracks via the Metro Tunnel
Mornington, Stony Point and Wonthaggi Trains run along new pair of tracks between South Yarra and Dandenong, aka extension of Caulfield To Dandenong Quadruplication. Track created between Frankston and Dandenong for these Mornington and Stony Point Services To Run. Rail is returned to Wonthaggi as part of the project, those trains run along the new third and fourth track

Exisiting Tracks - Clyde and Pakenham Metro Services via MM1
New 3/4 Tracks - Traralgon, Bairnsdale, Mornington/Stony Point via Dandenong and Frankston, Wonthaggi and freight
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Rail is returned to Wonthaggi
ptvcommuter

What?!

I've previously suggested South Gippsland (i.e. Leongatha) trains might be on the cards to justify quadding to Dandenong, but Wonthaggi...!

Also, blowing a cool couple of bill so a few of the landed gentry can ride a Sprinter to Dandenong? Now we're in Clunes sparking territory...
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

This is simply the Clyde rail thread that I made. At the time I made the post, most people were not thinking. Oh let's just build this, this and this as well.

Lol you are all thinking too ahead of time. Clyde Rail is not even in construction yet...

Honestly should be thinking how this project can be delivered. Or whether the economics stack up for the future projects in the pipeline.

ptvcommuter; Don't be too excited yet texting about the magical rail projects that have no commitment yet. It's just speculation. Or as some folks call it pipe dreams.

Future planning is important and that's the issue in Victoria. These projects all need assessment and determined first before anything can be in concrete.

Only projects I would consider that worthy of investigation are Metro 2 (it's been mentioned everywhere), Dandenong quadding (also noted when elevated rail was built), and a few metro rail extensions (like Wollert, Wallan and maybe Mornington). Anything else is kinda thought bubbles right now.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

I think the Dandenong-Frankston link does not need to be investigated for quite a while. Even if the line was quadruplicated from Caulfield-Dandenong, it would probably be used by Traralgon, Leongatha and express services to Pakenham and Clyde, taking up most of the space. I think a better medium term solution would be to electrify the entire line to Stony Point, and extend the line to Mornington. Then of the services reaching Frankston, half could terminate there (with the provision of a platform 3 and removal of some stabling), with the other half continuing on to Baxter, where they would alternate between Stony Point and Mornington; or at least something of the like.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
I think the Dandenong-Frankston link does not need to be investigated for quite a while. Even if the line was quadruplicated from Caulfield-Dandenong, it would probably be used by Traralgon, Leongatha and express services to Pakenham and Clyde, taking up most of the space. I think a better medium term solution would be to electrify the entire line to Stony Point, and extend the line to Mornington. Then of the services reaching Frankston, half could terminate there (with the provision of a platform 3 and removal of some stabling), with the other half continuing on to Baxter, where they would alternate between Stony Point and Mornington; or at least something of the like.
reubstar6
Mornington re establishment won't happen !

The track Into the former station (In the town centre) has long been lost to development.

Moorooduc to a truncated Mornington Station Is a tourist railway (they can't share the tracks with PTV train)

Any major rail public transport development In the area, should be looking at linking Baxter to the likes of Dromana
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
I think the Dandenong-Frankston link does not need to be investigated for quite a while. Even if the line was quadruplicated from Caulfield-Dandenong, it would probably be used by Traralgon, Leongatha and express services to Pakenham and Clyde, taking up most of the space. I think a better medium term solution would be to electrify the entire line to Stony Point, and extend the line to Mornington. Then of the services reaching Frankston, half could terminate there (with the provision of a platform 3 and removal of some stabling), with the other half continuing on to Baxter, where they would alternate between Stony Point and Mornington; or at least something of the like.
reub
Haha, seriously?  Rail to Leongatha being more important than getting express services to Frankston?

It's doublethink that we have some wishing to raise speeds on Geelong services, yet the same people treat express services to the Mornington Peninsula as unthinkable.  Consider, for Geelong we have about 4k using the train to get to work, with 5k employed within the Melbourne LGA (another 1k in Yarra & Port Phillip).  By comparison Frankston and the Mornington Pen similarly have about 4k using the train, but with over 6k working in the Melbourne LGA (another 2.5k in Yarra & Port Phillip).

As an example, a relaxed 12tph capacity on the new express tracks would enable 4tph to Pakenham/Latrobe Valley, Frankston/Peninsula, and Clyde, with proper, metro style frequencies on the stopping tracks to Dandenong.  Alternatively, for greatest capacity, if Clyde services were to be organised as extended stoppers from Dandenong (with city travellers changing to an express at Dandenong), one could easily support frequencies beyond 6tph to Pakenham/Latrobe Valley and Frankston/Peninsula, which is unlikely to become saturated in the foreseeable future.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

The reason I'm in favour of better services to Geelong is that Geelong has the capacity to expand. The Mornington Peninsula, under the current and warranted anti-development/subdivision attitudes does not. Frankston does not need an express service, any more than the one it already has. There are far more pressing issues on the network, such as (in no particular order):
  • Melton electrification/quadruplication
  • Wyndham Vale electrification/quadruplication
  • Metro 2
  • Clyde extention
  • Dandenong quadruplication
  • Rowville heavy rail
  • Wallan electrification
  • Geelong/Ballarat electrification and HSR
  • Camberwell quadruplication
  • City loop reconfiguration
  • Upfield-Somerton link
I could keep going. Providing additional paths for the Frankston line could be achieved through city loop reconfiguration, more level crossing removals and high-capacity signalling. If you are suggesting this link for express services alone then that seems like a tremendous waste of money.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Providing additional paths for the Frankston line could be achieved through city loop reconfiguration
reubstar6

In 2025, there will be 24tph available for Frankston, completely segregated from the rest of the network, its own Loop tunnel, the works - without any additional work.

That’s a pretty damn good reason to push it down the priority list.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

Forgot about that. Plus most of the seats are no longer marginal.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Frankston does not need an express service, but Geelong does... because?  Logical fallacies abound.

There are far more pressing issues on the network, such as (in no particular order):
reub

Oh boy, let's look at this big barrel of stupid...

Melton electrification/quadruplication
So if the Peninsula doesn't need express services, why does Ballarat?

Wyndham Vale electrification/quadruplication
So if the Peninsula doesn't need express services, why does Geelong?

Metro 2
And Geelong services can't run in this manner because..?

Clyde extention
Minor importance.

Dandenong quadruplication
Part and parcel of getting express services to Frankston.

Rowville heavy rail
Fix the network before adding more garbage, never going to happen in either case.

Wallan electrification
As with Clyde, pales in comparison with supporting Dandenong/Frankston in becoming major CBDs.

Geelong/Ballarat electrification and HSR
Totally unnecessary, and again, elevating some outer regions over others without justification.

Camberwell quadruplication
Now you think the smaller regions to the east are more important.

City loop reconfiguration
Yes, and..?

Upfield-Somerton link
Let me guess, so you can finish baby's first join the dots?

This resistance to providing a usable rail service to a sizeable fraction of the city, which additionally cements Dandenong as the city's principal south-eastern CBD, is absurd - the failure by so many posters here to adhere to any concrete set of logic beggars belief.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

@reubstar6 @potatoinmymouth @ZH836301

Frankston will have 24 TPH to use when Metro Tunnel opens and Triplication should be extended to Mordialloc. Remember that it caters for much more than just Frankston which is why it needs a high service demand.

The Peninsula has a population well over 150,000. Providing a rail service would be beneficial, have patronage and is a no brainer. The Frankston To Dandenong Line which would be above ground would allow this to happen.

You can have park and ride at Mornington Station as well as dedicated busways, quick SmartBus Routes to Rye, Rosebud, Portsea and the Peninsula. Not only that but it can come alongside the South Yarra/Caulfield to Dandenong Quadruplication Project. These Peninsula Trains can run on these express tracks allowing passengers to interchange between lines and between two very large employment and suburban hubs in Dandenong and Frankston. The service will also stop at Clayton, another large employment cluster which interchange with the Suburban Rail Loop.

Then you can extend the Cranbourne Line to Clyde for the huge growth in that area. Pakenham and Clyde running via Metro Tunnel with Interchange at Dandenong for express services. Traralgon/Bairnsdale and Mornington services running on the express tracks.  

On another note, Melton Quad and WV quad and sparks need to happen. This is to allow separation of VLine and Metro improving frequency on both and faster travel times. The goal of Fast Rail to Ballarat and Geelong is to decentralise Melbourne which is needed. Geelong is its own city now, it needs its own tram system and a quick, reliable service to Melbourne.

Rowville is needed, pure a simple. A tram between Chadstone and Monash could work, Rowville maybe not so much. Extending the Alamein Line via East Malvern, Chadstone and Oakleigh out to Monash and on to Rowville is a perfect way to deliver the project with orbital connections and without taking away existing services from the Dandenong Lines.
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
@reubstar6 @potatoinmymouth @ZH836301

Frankston will have 24 TPH to use when Metro Tunnel opens and Triplication should be extended to Mordialloc. Remember that it caters for much more than just Frankston which is why it needs a high service demand.

The Peninsula has a population well over 150,000. Providing a rail service would be beneficial, have patronage and is a no brainer. The Frankston To Dandenong Line which would be above ground would allow this to happen.

You can have park and ride at Mornington Station as well as dedicated busways, quick SmartBus Routes to Rye, Rosebud, Portsea and the Peninsula. Not only that but it can come alongside the South Yarra/Caulfield to Dandenong Quadruplication Project. These Peninsula Trains can run on these express tracks allowing passengers to interchange between lines and between two very large employment and suburban hubs in Dandenong and Frankston. The service will also stop at Clayton, another large employment cluster which interchange with the Suburban Rail Loop.

Then you can extend the Cranbourne Line to Clyde for the huge growth in that area. Pakenham and Clyde running via Metro Tunnel with Interchange at Dandenong for express services. Traralgon/Bairnsdale and Mornington services running on the express tracks.  

On another note, Melton Quad and WV quad and sparks need to happen. This is to allow separation of VLine and Metro improving frequency on both and faster travel times. The goal of Fast Rail to Ballarat and Geelong is to decentralise Melbourne which is needed. Geelong is its own city now, it needs its own tram system and a quick, reliable service to Melbourne.

Rowville is needed, pure a simple. A tram between Chadstone and Monash could work, Rowville maybe not so much. Extending the Alamein Line via East Malvern, Chadstone and Oakleigh out to Monash and on to Rowville is a perfect way to deliver the project with orbital connections and without taking away existing services from the Dandenong Lines.
ptvcommuter
can we all take a chill pill PLEASE !!

this is a discussion about CLYDE.

@ptvcommuter - a good first sentence -
"Frankston will have 24 TPH to use when Metro Tunnel opens and Triplication should be extended to Mordialloc"
then a quick deviation into a mountain of foam.

In case you can't read a map, the Peninsula already has a train service, it's called Stony Point.
Lot's of scope for Park & Ride at Baxter or further down, parking much easier than Frankston. There's a discussion thread already, look it up.

You advocate Triple to Mordialloc, giving Frankston an improved express service ( I DO agree),
BUT at the same time you want the express service to go via Dandenong.
Probably neither will happen, and you want BOTH ???

Please take NON-CLYDE pipe dreams elsewhere.

cheers
John
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

In case you can't read a map, the Peninsula already has a train service, it's called Stony Point.
justarider


Stony Point yes
Except the fact that it goes away from where the majority of people live in Mornington and beyond. Build train to Mornington with park and ride, quick SmartBus bussway for Portsea, Rye, Rosebud, etc and they come. They won’t come to Stony Point which 30 Minutes Away

Frankston to Dandenong is mostly for Peninsula passengers, yes. The Frankston Line is not just Frankston Station, it serves other Station did you know like Seaford and Carrum where many people like to get on. Triplication To Mordialloc, tick

Clyde can be part of this whole south east rail project as I like to call it. Similar to the western rail project although delivering Peninsula, Frankston to Dandenong, Clyde and quad all in one big project
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
In case you can't read a map, the Peninsula already has a train service, it's called Stony Point.
Stony Point yes
Except the fact that it goes away from where the majority of people live in Mornington and beyond. Build train to Mornington with park and ride, quick SmartBus bussway for Portsea, Rye, Rosebud, etc and they come. They won’t come to Stony Point which 30 Minutes Away

wafffle

more waffle
ptvcommuter
Park & Ride

Mornington to Frankston Station car park  19 minutes (plus find a spot if you can)
Mornington to Baxter  13 minutes

ENOUGH !!! using half a quote to distort what I said is extremely rude !!

get off the Clyde thread, and take your Mornington nonsense somewhere where somebody cares.

John
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

ENOUGH !!! using half a quote to distort what I said is extremely rude !! get off the Clyde thread, and take your Mornington nonsense somewhere where somebody cares.
justarider



The brilliant thing is I was merely contributing to what was posted on here before. I never started the Frankston-Dandenong talk. I merely suggested Clyde being part of a large South East Rail Project consisting of the projects that have been mentioned which it definitely should
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Response to ZH

Oh boy, let's look at this sensible rail upgrades for the growing west and north.

Melton electrification/quadruplication
So if the Peninsula doesn't need express services, why does Ballarat?

The peninsula doesn't even have a rail service unfortunately.

Ballarat has a population of 102,000
+ Barchus March 20,000
+ Ballan 3,000
Total 125,000

The Melton line has 180,00 population right on it (Melton/Caroline Springs/Deer Park)
This will increase as the suburbs grow.

380,000 population in total and increasing

Peninsula pop 160,000 and stable

Seriously ZH are you stupid?

Wyndham Vale electrification/quadruplication
So if the Peninsula doesn't need express services, why does Geelong?

Geelong has a population of 184,000
+ Lara 16,000
+ Little River 1,300
Total 200,000

The Wyndham line has 95,000 population right on it (Wyndham Vale/Tarniet/Truganina/Deer Park)
This will increase as the suburbs grow

295,000 population and increasing

Peninsula pop 160,000 and stable

Seriously ZH are you stupid?

Metro 2
And Geelong services can't run in this manner because..?

Debatable, but RRL has provision for 4 tracks, Werribee line doesn't. If Geelong line were not diverted then running through Metro 2 and quadding the Werribee line would make sense.

BTW Metro 2 is the best long term project out of the bunch of others.

Clyde extention
Minor importance.

Will be more significant in the coming years for sure. The area is growing.

Dandenong quadruplication
Part and parcel of getting express services to Frankston.

This one is a no-brainer. Always more services on the busiest line, freight and v-line seperated. Allows Rowville rail too.

Rowville heavy rail
Fix the network before adding more garbage, never going to happen in either case.

That's what the Dandenong quadruplication would fix to allow this one to go ahead. Anyways it's more of a longer term project to allow that area to become more livable and dense.

Wallan electrification
As with Clyde, pales in comparison with supporting Dandenong/Frankston in becoming major CBDs.

It's a future line to allow residental areas to fill up the area.

The SRL would support Boxhill to become a major city.

Geelong/Ballarat electrification and HSR
Totally unnecessary, and again, elevating some outer regions over others without justification.

As I said above the population justifies this. You are too blind to see this.

Camberwell quadruplication
Now you think the smaller regions to the east are more important.

Segregating the rail network of the whole network is important. Not much as a priority as the others. It's in the Metro Tunnel document of potential future projects. It's one of them. I'd say 20 years down the line, it could be worthwhile.

City loop reconfiguration
Yes, and..?

Same as I said above about segregating the rail network, it's too important not to dismiss it like that

Upfield-Somerton link
Let me guess, so you can finish baby's first join the dots?

No, increases the capacity of the Wallan corridor. Good future planning at it's best.

This resistance to providing a usable rail service to a sizeable fraction of the city, which additionally cements Dandenong as the city's principal south-eastern CBD, is absurd - the failure by so many posters here to adhere to any concrete set of logic beggars belief.

Boxhill can become a CBD to the east, Reservior to the North and Sunshine to the west. SRL will provide 3 cities across the whole city. Instead focussing on one particular area. You are so obssessed with the peninsula and Dandenong and Frankston, you ignore the other issues across the whole network in Melbourne. The Growing suburbs in the North and West. And projects to enable more capacity to these growth corridors.
  stooge spark Train Controller

ENOUGH !!! using half a quote to distort what I said is extremely rude !! get off the Clyde thread, and take your Mornington nonsense somewhere where somebody cares.



The brilliant thing is I was merely contributing to what was posted on here before. I never started the Frankston-Dandenong talk.
ptvcommuter
So? That doesn't mean you continue to derail a thread that was obviously about something else.
Now, can we actually talk about Clyde in this thread, please?

So I reckon when Clyde ever comes that a potential stabling yard would be south of Ballarato road, right out of the way of the current provision to South Gippy, similar to something like at Pakenham east and Bacchus Marsh.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Will be more significant in the coming years for sure
True Believers


Clyde is needed now, should’ve been done as part of the duplication work but at least the biggest bottleneck for Cranbourne passengers is being addressed. 2023 is poor though, construction and planning needs to be started now so that this duplication and lxra works are done by 2021
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Will be more significant in the coming years for sure


Clyde is needed now, should’ve been done as part of the duplication work but at least the biggest bottleneck for Cranbourne passengers is being addressed. 2023 is poor though, construction and planning needs to be started now so that this duplication and lxra works are done by 2021
ptvcommuter
That's what the business case is for?

To see the benefits and cost of extending the line. Whether the brand new stabling yard is needed? Or where to put the stations along it's route.

Anyways although doing it once is nice, there is a limit how much a government can spend at once with infrastructure.

If money wasn't a factor, all lines in outer suburbs would already be electrified, all the single tracks would be duplicated and every line upgraded with high capacity signalling and maybe have 3-4 cross city metro tunnels.

Anyways going and building infrastructure without assessing it first is risky. That's why when we build infrastructure, we build the ones that are best bang for dollar and benefits the most to the community.

The Mernda line didn't come on day 1. The rail line was duplicated and extended to South Morang. Then extended out to Mernda. Now should the Epping line be extended all the way to Mernda and duplicated all at once in 2012? Debatable. Well that would of pushed the cost into 1 billion in total.

Clyde rail would be able to finished by the time the Metro Tunnel opens so don't worry. 2019-2023 business case. 2023 construction and 2025 opens. Mernda rail got built quick remember.
  ngarner Junior Train Controller

Location: Seville
I think you'll find that what you're demanding should happen "now" actually is being worked on.
Check out the link, Cranbourne line, maybe do some research for yourself to get a better idea about rail operations in this state as many of your posts show an apparent lack of knowledge about something you display quite a bit of passion about.
Money is not something a government has an inexhaustible supply of, even borrowing has it's limitations. The amount of money spent of rail in Victoria in the last few years is vastly more than has been put in over the last six plus decades and we are seeing the results in patronage but there is a need to be judicial in how, when and where it is spent. Unless we get a terribly negative business case, Clyde will get rail after the duplication to Cranbourne is complete; unless you preferred Matthew Guys idea of building a dual track extension beyond Cranbourne and then trying to run a service along the remaining single track section to Dandenong, just to get it built.

Neil
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Seriously ZH are you stupid?

Here's a tip, if you're going to get nasty, make sure you actually have a leg to stand on.

And anyway, I'm far better it - let's look at your nonsense...


Melton electrification/quadruplication
So if the Peninsula doesn't need express services, why does Ballarat?

The peninsula doesn't even have a rail service unfortunately.

Ballarat has a population of 102,000
+ Barchus March 20,000
+ Ballan 3,000
Total 125,000

The Melton line has 180,00 population right on it (Melton/Caroline Springs/Deer Park)
This will increase as the suburbs grow.

380,000 population in total and increasing

Peninsula pop 160,000 and stable

Seriously ZH are you stupid?

Wyndham Vale electrification/quadruplication
So if the Peninsula doesn't need express services, why does Geelong?

Geelong has a population of 184,000
+ Lara 16,000
+ Little River 1,300
Total 200,000

The Wyndham line has 95,000 population right on it (Wyndham Vale/Tarniet/Truganina/Deer Park)
This will increase as the suburbs grow

295,000 population and increasing

Peninsula pop 160,000 and stable

Seriously ZH are you stupid?

If you were intelligent, you'd know it is the movements of people, not population which is important.

Only 1k residents of Ballarat work in the City of Melbourne (another 200 in Yarra & Port Phillip), with almost the same amount using the train for their journey to work (indicating rail market share to the city is essentially saturated).  Patronage from Geelong is higher, with about 4k using the train to get to work, and 5k employed within CoM (another 1k in Yarra & PP).

However both have far less patronage than Frankston/Morn.Pen. with 6k jobs in CoM along with another 2.5k in Yarra & Port Phillip, with plenty of room for rail modal gains too (understandable given the substandard service) given only 4k use the train according to Journey-to-Work data, with some of that accounted for by intermediate locations between Frankston and the city.

So does that make you the stupid one?

Growth rates for Frankston and the Mornington Peninsula are also similar to that of Geelong and Ballarat.  Given these facts, I fail to see why it is so hard to concede that a link from Dandenong to Frankston is justified.  Particularly when one considers it less than half the scale of the new infrastructure for the Regional Rail Link, and resolves the issues with express services on the Frankston line, allowing for conversion to metro style frequencies on the existing alignment.


Metro 2
And Geelong services can't run in this manner because..?

Debatable, but RRL has provision for 4 tracks, Werribee line doesn't. If Geelong line were not diverted then running through Metro 2 and quadding the Werribee line would make sense.

BTW Metro 2 is the best long term project out of the bunch of others.

I'm yet to hear a concrete reason as to why Geelong cannot be operated as an extension from Werribee via MM2.

You have Werribee, then three suburban stops (HC, WL, Laverton), then Newport and two stops in Fishermens Bend before Southern Cross.  Those stops in Fishermens Bend will be a major source of employment (thus relevant to Geelong passengers), with Newport and Werribee being necessary interchange stops regardless.  There is no reason one needs to build two express tracks to skip a mere three suburban stops.  

The journey time would be on the order of 50min, which is faster than present, and as the data shows, modal capture by rail for city employment is already close to saturation (due to fuel/parking costs and road travel times blowing out from an hour to 90min or worse in the peak).  This solution offers a combination of the greatest capacity and travel times faster than road, delivered in the most economical manner.  Serving both suburban and regional areas with the one line is not unusual by international standards, and it is exactly how the Parisian RER operates.  This also grants the Wyndham Vale line freedom to be run as a suburban route, with an additional 4+ stations.

Ballarat services are a similar case - between Deer Park and Melton there are plans for up to five intermediate stops, which would place Ballarat as the 11th stop past Sunshine on an all stops service.  Currently expresses between Melton and Sunshine take 17min express, with all stops at 23min.  If we assume 27min to account for the three stations still to be built, then an express track pair here could save at most 10min.  

Now an example service to the group given a relaxed 12tph capacity could be a service every 15min to each of Melton,  Wyndham, then Ballarat, in that order, which could allow the Ballarat services to run express between Melton and Sunshine to save at least 5min on the stopping services.  That then essentially means that the time saving for Ballarat services with quadding to Melton would be at most a mere 5min, which given the relatively low patronage would simply not be justifiable.  The lower service frequencies to Wyndham and Melton compared to Sydenham/Sunbury would be partially offset by the faster journey time granted by running express from Sunshine to Footscray.

In summary, using a relaxed line capacity of 12tph, one could have for example in the west/north:

*Metros (BG):
-Sydenham: 12tph -> Sunbury: 6tph
-Craigieburn: 12tph
-Campbellfield/Airport: 12tph

*Werribee/Geelong MM2 RER (BG):
-Werribee: 12tph -> Geelong: 6tph

*Deer Park RER Group (SG):
-Melton: 4tph
-Wyndham: 4tph
-Ballarat (exp. Melton-Sunshine): 4tph

*Albion RER/Regional Group (SG):
-Airport: 6tph -> Bendigo: 3tph
-Wallan: 6tph -> Seymour: 3tph
-Shepparton/Albury (express Seymour-Bmeadows): 1tph

With Williamstown & Altona downgraded to light rail - all that should be sufficient capacity far into the foreseeable future.


(RE: Rowville) That's what the Dandenong quadruplication would fix to allow this one to go ahead. Anyways it's more of a longer term project to allow that area to become more livable and dense.

Rowville doesn't need a 50k passenger per hour railway - it's only about 10km from Huntingdale, bus lanes with signal priority would suffice.


Geelong/Ballarat electrification and HSR
Totally unnecessary, and again, elevating some outer regions over others without justification.

As I said above the population justifies this. You are too blind to see this.

You're completely blind to reality - the statistics simply do not justify it.


Upfield-Somerton link
Let me guess, so you can finish baby's first join the dots?

No, increases the capacity of the Wallan corridor. Good future planning at it's best.

Capacity which isn't needed - assuming relaxed capacity of 12tph beyond Albion, one could have 6tph to both the airport/Bendigo and Seymour/northeast.


ZH: This resistance to providing a usable rail service to a sizeable fraction of the city, which additionally cements Dandenong as the city's principal south-eastern CBD, is absurd - the failure by so many posters here to adhere to any concrete set of logic beggars belief.

Boxhill can become a CBD to the east, Reservior to the North and Sunshine to the west. SRL will provide 3 cities across the whole city. Instead focussing on one particular area. You are so obssessed with the peninsula and Dandenong and Frankston, you ignore the other issues across the whole network in Melbourne. The Growing suburbs in the North and West. And projects to enable more capacity to these growth corridors.

It's not the Peninsula that is most of interest to me, but the way in which it highlights the lack of basic common sense and logic displayed in the zealotry of so many.  That is, the failure to understand the transport task at the most basic level and to argue from a basis consistent with data and evidence.  When people think places like Ballarat need a gold plated solution despite having barely over a tenth the traffic of an outer suburban region like Frankston/Morn.Pen., it's demonstrative of a deep misunderstanding.

Whilst the east needs four tracks to Dandenong, the equivalent in the west is getting six tracks to Sunshine to support:

*Sydenham/Sunbury Metro
*Airport/Bendigo & Seymour/Northeast
*Melton/Ballarat & Wyndham/Werribee

The cheapest means at achieving this would likely be to take over the existing freight lines, then linking the Newport to Sunshine rail line to Port of Melbourne using swing bridges where necessary.  This would be far cheaper than the current proposals to create a passenger tunnel from Footscray to Sunshine, particularly when the railyards at Tottenham are no longer required and a prime candidate for redevelopment.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
ZH, particularly relating to the Ballarat line. You only look at the present, you don't look at future requirements due to booming population growth along the corridor.

M.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

"---"
ZH836301

Population/Geelong and Ballarat Express rail

Population and population growth is very important to consider when deciding where people are likely to work and use the rail line. As for Geelong and Ballarat. Although there movements are quite low as you may have pointed out, if the service is improved likely that movement would increase.

Outer suburbs like Wydnham Vale, Tarneit, Caroline Springs. These suburbs more likely depend on services into Melbourne and may have higher percentage of population commuting into Melbourne. While Ballarat/Geelong are their own cities in respect and some people may commute locally.

Every Ballarat train is full in the peak due to stopping at stops meant for metro trains. I've seen that Tarneit station is the second busiest station on the Vline network. Both facts and I can show you sources if you don't believe me. There is clearly demand for more services in that area. Maybe if you knew the struggles of the services in the west maybe you'd understand why posters are pushing for gold plated solutions over here.

There is justification for the upgraded service, currently the regional trains shouldn't be taken on stations served by Melbourne middle/outer suburbs.

I'm not stupid. That's why I'm justifying what I built on previously.

Geelong through Metro 2

The reason that puts off most people off the Geelong line extension off the Werribee line, is the line would have to be electrified first. Is there justification for this? The quadding track may be a little excessive if the line is extended and electrified to Geelong.

If there is express btw 4 stops (a new stop at Derrimut which you seem to miss) and the Werribee line planned to have 24Tph in the future. And Geelong services running seperate (not electrified), maybe some passing loops can be added.

As for Geelong and and Ballarat, it's the stops in the outer suburbs that making these services late and over-crowded. Running 2 services Melton/Wydnham services together will mean a 10 minute delay. There is plenty of room for the extra track, how much would it cost? Probably only 1 billion dollars. Much cheaper than other proposed quadding.

With Williamstown & Altona downgraded to light rail - all that should be sufficient capacity far into the foreseeable future.
That's a popular suggestion? How much do you suggest will that cost? The new light rail stabling? The new trams? Come on ZH, it's too much hassle than it's worth.

We may differ in opinion but I'll give credit where it's due
I do like your service plan for the west. It's quite detailed. But yeah I may disagree on you on certain areas of how to improve transit across but yeah we are all passionate on one thing running the most efficient rail system in Melbourne.


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