50 level crossings to be removed

 
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

As has been discussed in the HCMT thread and agreeded or disagreed on. There is no need for the old third platform at Oakleigh Station. The Majority of services will short start at Dandenong or West Footscray.
Lockie91


@tayser


There was no need but with the work that’s been done, it will be easier when Quadruplication of the corridor comes because you can still use the old platform 1 alignment for a third track, relocating the bike path and now there is a space for fourth track between the current platform 1 and 2. All you need at Oakleigh for Quadruplication is a flyover or two.

Springvale will be a challenge when it comes to Quadruplication

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  ptvcommuter Train Controller

How the hell can you remove South Rd, Brighton. It is probably the worst LX on the Sandringham alongside Hampton St and Glen Eira Rd, but it definitely sees the most traffic

  • You have the sea next to it
  • Could you Trench. I mean they are planning for Edithvale and Bonbeach to go under in wetlands and swamp area
  • Heritage station
  • Road based option would be hard due to proximity of Beach Rd
  • Elevated Option a sensitive and big risk, people would lose their beach view but the view for passengers would be amazing
  • Curve into the station
  • Sidings to deal with
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

You'd probably have to remove the stabling for a start. No idea where you could relocate it to but that would get the ball rolling. Then, depending on if rail-under is possible, you'd go with that, since if you're pursuing this crossing price is probably not too much of an issue. Shift the heritage buildings to form a part of the new station entrance, then dig a trench with a curve like Gardiner. That's the only way I can see it being done.
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
I was travelling on the Glen Waverley line a bit in the last few weeks and can confirm that site investigations have definitely started at the the Toorak Rd crossing.  I'm going to assume this will end up being some kind of hybrid solution given the railway is on a bit of an embankment which can be removed and Toorak Rd can be raised by about 1-2 meters at the crossing to level out the dip.  It also explains with the recent overhead upgrade works along the line that no upgrades have taken place between Tooronga and Kooyong as that whole section will be nearly rebuilt with the crossing removal. It will be a pain for traffic in the area when it is being built but this is another crossing that badly needs to be removed. Hopefully other crossings along that line will be removed in the near future.  Strategically it doesn't make sense to do Glen Waverley crossings in bulk because of the way the railway crosses east-west and north-south roads in turn.

Regarding Cheltenham, it will be built with three platforms with all tracks available for through running - not like the current arrangement. I also saw in a recent tweet that demolition of acquired properties has started.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Regarding Cheltenham, it will be built with three platforms with all tracks available for through running - not like the current arrangement.
jdekorte

While this is great, it'll be grist for the mill of the ning-nongs (certain representatives of the drivers' union among them) who believe Skyrail is part of some vast conspiracy to reduce operational flexibility. As in, "if we'd had a trench too we could have got more points!"
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
The Frankston line is definitely getting flexibility increases - the current down track at Kananook will become bidirectional.
  trainbrain Deputy Commissioner

How the hell can you remove South Rd, Brighton. It is probably the worst LX on the Sandringham alongside Hampton St and Glen Eira Rd, but it definitely sees the most traffic

  • You have the sea next to it
  • Could you Trench. I mean they are planning for Edithvale and Bonbeach to go under in wetlands and swamp area
  • Heritage station
  • Road based option would be hard due to proximity of Beach Rd
  • Elevated Option a sensitive and big risk, people would lose their beach view but the view for passengers would be amazing
  • Curve into the station
  • Sidings to deal with
ptvcommuter
simple. it will not happen.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

I found someone used my statements on Railpage, on a reddit thread about the 75 level crossing removals. That's interesting. Just noticed it now.

https://www.reddit.com/r/melbourne/comments/9pzg5x/only_labor_will_remove_75_dangerous_and_congested/
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
Regarding Cheltenham, it will be built with three platforms with all tracks available for through running - not like the current arrangement.

While this is great, it'll be grist for the mill of the ning-nongs (certain representatives of the drivers' union among them) who believe Skyrail is part of some vast conspiracy to reduce operational flexibility. As in, "if we'd had a trench too we could have got more points!"
potatoinmymouth
Cheltenham is being trenched. I can't say that I'm wholly in agreement with this method here as more properties are to be demolished, but it is what it is. I'm assuming it will be future proofed at the northern end to facilitate a connection with the new Suburban Rail Tunnel near Southland.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Does this Cheltenham and Mentone LX have provision for third track, ie future extension to Mordialloc ?
Also are they providing an exit at Park Rd which would be useful for commuters ?
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
A third track isn't needed, the existing third track from Caulfield should be ripped up for parking or redevelopment.

Express services to Frankston/Morn.Pen. should be run via Dandenong, with the existing line running a proper metro service.
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
A third track isn't needed, the existing third track from Caulfield should be ripped up for parking or redevelopment.

Express services to Frankston/Morn.Pen. should be run via Dandenong, with the existing line running a proper metro service.
ZH836301
so you mean ZH that
existing pax that have a partial express Frankston to Flinders St (60 minutes),
are now going to be given the "improvement" of an SAS (70 minutes),
just so the lucky few out Mornington can have a fancy express (why do they deserve an express ??) of what 40-50-60 minutes.

and YES, I have been on "proper metro"
EG:
Heathrow - Kings Cross  - 29km 57 minutes
Kings Cross - Cockfosters - 18km 34 minutes
Total Piccadilly line 47 km 91 minutes
compare
Frankston - Flinders St 44km 60 minutes
Metro are NOT fast, they just seem that way 'cause you're cooped up in a tunnel.

The difference between Melbourne Metro and London Metro is fairly simple.
London trains are small, frequent and not particularity fast. Melbourne are large, not so frequent and mixed (but better) speeds.

As for that Frankston- Dandenong, what are you prepared to pay for it and how many will use it (that do NOT already catch the existing paths)?

20km new track, with no reservation, and maybe use some of the Eastlink median.
Once you get to the Eastlink/Dandy By-pass intersection: how do you get to Dandy station
  • Bulldozer
  • Tunnel
  • Forget Dandy, just go to Melbourne instead

How many stations ??  NONE ?? so again it's just a junket for Mornington ?
Epping-Mernda 11km cost $1.2B - some infrastructure upgrades sure, but they had an existing pathway.
How much for your pet project?

And don't give the usual tripe about expresses slow everything down. In that case Mornington must not get one either.

cheers
John
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
Does this Cheltenham and Mentone LX have provision for third track, ie future extension to Mordialloc ?
Also are they providing an exit at Park Rd which would be useful for commuters ?
ptvcommuter
Both Cheltenham and Mentone are being built as rail under projects.  At this stage Cheltenham will be built with three tracks with all tracks being connected to enable through routing - not like the current arrangement.  This is why there has been so much property acquisition at Cheltenham to provide room for the three tracks in a trench.

As for Mentone it will be for two tracks.  They are a bit squashed for space at the up end due to apartment construction and the fact that the up platform building is likely to be retained in some form due to heritage concerns.  The community were apparently very firm in wanting the heritage aspects of the building and garden to be maintained.  So it is likely the new tracks will be basically in the area where the down platform is now.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
so you mean ZH that
existing pax that have a partial express Frankston to Flinders St (60 minutes),
are now going to be given the "improvement" of an SAS (70 minutes),
just so the lucky few out Mornington can have a fancy express (why do they deserve an express ??) of what 40-50-60 minutes.
justarider
Why do they deserve an express?

Good question, why do Carrum-Cheltenham deserve express services when others like Mernda don't?  The reality is, that those express services are a luxury that will not be sustainable.  The first domino to fall is between Caulfield and South Yarra, as all services will need to stop all stations to maximise capacity, reducing 3 minutes from the 10 minute gain for express services.  Next, as frequencies increase, reliability will start to fall.  Finally, demand for increased services will kill them off completely.

So why Frankston/Mornington Peninsula then?  Well it's a significant transport base, and as with regional destinations and other outer suburban regions like Casey, stopping all stations become intolerably along.  Residents also find significant employment along the Dandenong-Caulfield arc.  But above all it is the best solution for the price, given quadding to Dandenong is an inevitability.

Mentone to Seaford is a relatively thin wedge of suburbia, and no more entitled to express services than any other suburban destinations of that distance.  With a proper metro frequency waiting time decreases, and the overall addition to that 7 minute express gain becomes meaningless.  Stopping all services along the line are largely time competitive with road, but to Frankston and the Peninsula with Eastlink, they are not.


and YES, I have been on "proper metro"
EG:
Heathrow - Kings Cross  - 29km 57 minutes
Kings Cross - Cockfosters - 18km 34 minutes
Total Piccadilly line 47 km 91 minutes
compare
Frankston - Flinders St 44km 60 minutes
Metro are NOT fast, they just seem that way 'cause you're cooped up in a tunnel.
justarider
Just London, quite worldly.

Nobody said metros are fast, it's basic knowledge that they aren't, since they rely on close station spacing and high frequencies to maximise patronage.  But they also have substantial turnover, since density and a lack of centralisation means most people only travel a short distance to work - the average journey length in London is only 9km, similar for Paris and Berlin.  

Most people in Melbourne also work close to home, but the low density makes buses more suitable for such trips, however the bus system simply isn't up to scratch, hence why most drive.  Where rail does work is to the city, since road travel becomes noncompetitive and journey paths converge.  The future should be focused on metrofying the network, with extra density along rail lines such that short journeys fall along the path of rail, and to help increase contraflow.

Btw, nobody takes the metro from Heathrow, they use the Heathrow express - like Frankston metro vs Frankston express.


20km new track, with no reservation, and maybe use some of the Eastlink median.
Once you get to the Eastlink/Dandy By-pass intersection: how do you get to Dandy station
justarider
Wrong path - since proposed, the plan has always been to connect with the Cranbourne line, either south of the built up regions at the Western Port Hwy (13km) or slightly longer via Eumemmering Creek (14.5km).  You do not need to have a direct path to offer substantial reductions in journey time.


How many stations ??  NONE ?? so again it's just a junket for Mornington ?
justarider

So does that make 27km of new railway for the Regional Rail Link a junket for Geelong?  Wait, I forgot, regional services, despite having journey times superior to much of the outer city, are on a special pedestal that demands they have uninterrupted access to the city at any cost.  

But a station midway around Thompsons Rd would be useful for connections from Carrum Downs and into the southern industrial regions of Dandenong.  But then again, I'm sure you'd prefer we just instead put the relatively small amount that would be spent on such a project into the much larger expense of dealing with the traffic spewing out of Eastlink.

People on here have their priorities all over the place.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
I was travelling on the Glen Waverly line a bit in the last few weeks and can confirm ...
jdekorte

Next time you are travelling on the Glen Waverly line...check the spelling of the trains head board, or if you are at the terminus, the station name plate.

Mike.
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
I was travelling on the Glen Waverly line a bit in the last few weeks and can confirm ...

Next time you are travelling on the Glen Waverly line...check the spelling of the trains head board, or if you are at the terminus, the station name plate.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Yep, sorry about that. It's just one of those spelling errors I'm continually making. One day I'll learn. The post has been re-edited.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

The future should be focused on metrofying the network, with extra density along rail lines such that short journeys fall along the path of rail, and to help increase contraflow.
ZH836301

Density near rail corridors? Intra-suburban journeys? Bidirectional peak flows? Where have I heard all that before? Oh, that's right, in the thread where you claim the SRL is unjustifiable.

So does that make 27km of new railway for the Regional Rail Link a junket for Geelong?
ZH836301

Yes, definitely. That is, if you ignore the two suburban stations which turned the RRL into a victim of its own success.

But a station midway around Thompsons Rd would be useful for connections from Carrum Downs and into the southern industrial regions of Dandenong.
ZH836301

Thompsons Rd/Eastlink area, population one cemetery, one golf club, and bugger-all else.

All this thread shows is that the Gish Gallop is remarkably effective - spew enough bulldust and we end up talking about finickity points on a project that makes no sense on a thread that has nothing to do with it.
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
People on here have their priorities all over the place.
ZH836301
If you want to go on about Frankston, please go to
Justifing Dandenong to Frankston railway
it doesn't belong here

cheers
John
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Umm hey guys, apparently as part of the LXRA works they preparing to build a new pedestrian overpass near Kananook station

Anyone have any idea if this is part of the stabling works for Kananook?

I never saw any plans for this new pedestrian overpass, I thought they would keep the existing overpass. It's shown on the LXRA facebook page.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
it doesn't belong here
justarider

You're the one who made a long post begging a response - don't get your panties in a knot.



Density near rail corridors? Intra-suburban journeys? Bidirectional peak flows? Where have I heard all that before? Oh, that's right, in the thread where you claim the SRL is unjustifiable.
potatoinmymouth

So you don't think we should building up density along existing lines?


Yes, definitely. That is, if you ignore the two suburban stations which turned the RRL into a victim of its own success.
potatoinmymouth

Carrum Downs equivalent, but without parallel is the connecting of the Peninsula with major locations of its resident's employment.


Thompsons Rd/Eastlink area, population one cemetery, one golf club, and bugger-all else.
potatoinmymouyth

And best connection point for buses and park and ride - connections leading into Dandenong South can be either served from here, or with a station at Abbotts Rd or Greens Rd for Western Port Hwy alignment, or F-D Rd or Greens Rd for the Eumemmerring Creek alignment.

Considering the proportion of Casey residents working in Dandenong, a station at Abbotts Rd or Greens Rd makes sense, with bus connections through the industrial zone of Dandenong South.


All this thread shows is that the Gish Gallop is remarkably effective - spew enough bulldust and we end up talking about finickity points on a project that makes no sense on a thread that has nothing to do with it.
potatoinmymouth

Rather, it shows that the thinking of some is far too insular.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

It doesn't belong here ZH
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Umm hey guys, apparently as part of the LXRA works they preparing to build a new pedestrian overpass near Kananook station

Anyone have any idea if this is part of the stabling works for Kananook?

I never saw any plans for this new pedestrian overpass, I thought they would keep the existing overpass. It's shown on the LXRA facebook page.
True Believers
They are modifying the supports on the existing pedestrian bridge - the new track is going to be much closer to the bridge pillars, and as such they need to be changed to be compliant with the new standard in case of a train collision. Basically they will be made longer, like the North Melbourne flyover supports, and Hampshire Road in Sunshine were during RRL construction.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Umm hey guys, apparently as part of the LXRA works they preparing to build a new pedestrian overpass near Kananook station

Anyone have any idea if this is part of the stabling works for Kananook?

I never saw any plans for this new pedestrian overpass, I thought they would keep the existing overpass. It's shown on the LXRA facebook page.
They are modifying the supports on the existing pedestrian bridge - the new track is going to be much closer to the bridge pillars, and as such they need to be changed to be compliant with the new standard in case of a train collision. Basically they will be made longer, like the North Melbourne flyover supports, and Hampshire Road in Sunshine were during RRL construction.
TOQ-1
Thank you. Hope they make the bridge wider and undercover hopefully. But yeah it would be nice if they decided to do a minor upgrade to the station to make it more appealing. But yeah seems like this would benefit users at Kananook, which is great for the local community.
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

Thank you. Hope they make the bridge wider and undercover hopefully. But yeah it would be nice if they decided to do a minor upgrade to the station to make it more appealing. But yeah seems like this would benefit users at Kananook, which is great for the local community.
True Believers

Doesn't look like they're doing anything to the bridge itself, such as roofing or widening.  They're just working on the supports.
  thekingoffoxes Chief Train Controller

Thank you. Hope they make the bridge wider and undercover hopefully. But yeah it would be nice if they decided to do a minor upgrade to the station to make it more appealing. But yeah seems like this would benefit users at Kananook, which is great for the local community.

Doesn't look like they're doing anything to the bridge itself, such as roofing or widening.  They're just working on the supports.
Adogs
Video of Kananook is up, mid Jan footage.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5tfXUSeqJw

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