Justifying Dandenong to Frankston railway

 
Topic moved from Melbourne suburban by dthead on 29 Jan 2019 10:01
  stooge spark Train Controller

@ptvcommuter @ZH836301 True Believers post here instead of infecting the clyde thread with your nonsense about this stupid railway line.

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  True Believers Chief Commissioner

@ptvcommuter @ZH836301 True Believers post here instead of infecting the clyde thread with your nonsense about this stupid railway line.
stooge spark
It doesn't matter, I've finished with discussing about that
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Ok here goes


Frankston to Dandenong is an extremely beneficial project for the south east of Melbourne. It would be delivered alongside the Quadruplication of Caulfield/South Yarra To Dandenong and deliver services to Peninsula.

Mornington Peninsula area has a population of 165,000 people. Current PT access to the Peninsula is poor and needs to be improved.

By creating a Mornington Peninsula Line terminating near the town centre, you can take people off roads and onto trains. A huge park and ride station with regular, frequent busses to the surrounding suburbs would transform Melbourne. Trains would be packed in the summer with tourists and beach goers, while also being used by the people with quick access to Melbourne, Frankston, Dandenong and Clayton

Building Frankston to Dandenong Line which would be above ground wouldn’t be cost excessive and wouldn’t involve tunneling. This project would help decentralise Melbourne and improve services to the regions.

By having the Mornington and upgraded Stony Point Line running via this link and through the Dandenong-Sth Yarra Quadruplicated tracks, you guarantee a fast trip from the Peninsula to the city. It also enables faster Traralgon Line Services separating VLine and Metro and getting rid of the bottleneck.

For a distance of around 70-80km it would take a maximum of 45 Minutes, Stopping at Mornington, Frankston, Dandenong, Clayton and Richmond smashing travel times and the car with the current VLocity fleet. It would relive some pressure off the Frankston Line and transform the South East

It’s a no brainer and it should be built
  Lockie91 Junior Train Controller

Mornington Peninsula area has a population of 165,000 people. Current PT access to the Peninsula is poor and needs to be improved”
So of those 165,000 people how many of those travel outside of the Peninsula to access work or services?

25,694 according to the last census.

Of those 7,523 work within in the Frankston LGA.

The Dandenong LGA accounts for only 3,343 workers or 5% of the Peninsula’s population.

The Peninsula actual working population is only 67,455. A commuter suburb it is not.

PT access to the Peninsula does not require a gold plated railway line via Dandenong. Improving PT services WITHIN the peninsula for its almost 30,000 workers is more important.

Lastly phrases like “it’s a no brainer” do not help your cause. Less line drawing and a little more number crunching.

https://profile.id.com.au/mornington-peninsula/residents

Lockie
  trainbrain Deputy Commissioner

Ok here goes


Frankston to Dandenong is an extremely beneficial project for the south east of Melbourne. It would be delivered alongside the Quadruplication of Caulfield/South Yarra To Dandenong and deliver services to Peninsula.

Mornington Peninsula area has a population of 165,000 people. Current PT access to the Peninsula is poor and needs to be improved.

By creating a Mornington Peninsula Line terminating near the town centre, you can take people off roads and onto trains. A huge park and ride station with regular, frequent busses to the surrounding suburbs would transform Melbourne. Trains would be packed in the summer with tourists and beach goers, while also being used by the people with quick access to Melbourne, Frankston, Dandenong and Clayton

Building Frankston to Dandenong Line which would be above ground wouldn’t be cost excessive and wouldn’t involve tunneling. This project would help decentralise Melbourne and improve services to the regions.

By having the Mornington and upgraded Stony Point Line running via this link and through the Dandenong-Sth Yarra Quadruplicated tracks, you guarantee a fast trip from the Peninsula to the city. It also enables faster Traralgon Line Services separating VLine and Metro and getting rid of the bottleneck.

For a distance of around 70-80km it would take a maximum of 45 Minutes, Stopping at Mornington, Frankston, Dandenong, Clayton and Richmond smashing travel times and the car with the current VLocity fleet. It would relive some pressure off the Frankston Line and transform the South East

It’s a no brainer and it should be built
ptvcommuter
go away you goose.....................
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
No one would say the peninsula has excellent transport links to Melbourne, in fact they are slow and do not adequately cover the vast area which is the peninsula itself.  How does this project improve transit times between the peninsula and Melbourne as it would not be the shortest route or would it?
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
so you mean ZH that
existing pax that have a partial express Frankston to Flinders St (60 minutes),
are now going to be given the "improvement" of an SAS (70 minutes),
just so the lucky few out Mornington can have a fancy express (why do they deserve an express ??) of what 40-50-60 minutes.
Why do they deserve an express?

Good question, why do Carrum-Cheltenham deserve express services when others like Mernda don't?  The reality is, that those express services are a luxury that will not be sustainable.  The first domino to fall is between Caulfield and South Yarra, as all services will need to stop all stations to maximise capacity, reducing 3 minutes from the 10 minute gain for express services.  Next, as frequencies increase, reliability will start to fall.  Finally, demand for increased services will kill them off completely.

REPLY: it's not a case of my train is better/worse than yours. Frankston line has 3 tracks to work with, Mernda has only 2 (for now)
Let's just rip one out to make them both equal: BS
Sure maximize capacity is a worthy aim, but you sound like just packing more pax into the same number of trains.
Just tell all those standing for an hour "she'll be right just hang on to the straps for an extra 10 minutes".
Increase frequency = poor reliability = kill them off completely. what poppy cock.


So why Frankston/Mornington Peninsula then?  Well it's a significant transport base, and as with regional destinations and other outer suburban regions like Casey, stopping all stations become intolerably along.  Residents also find significant employment along the Dandenong-Caulfield arc.  But above all it is the best solution for the price, given quadding to Dandenong is an inevitability.

REPLY: so it is intolerably long for outer suburbs, but those closer in don't matter at all.
Dragging down a worthwhile improvement such as the Dandy quad, with a bunch of peripheral nonsense, is almost a guarantee that nothing will be done.


Mentone to Seaford is a relatively thin wedge of suburbia, and no more entitled to express services than any other suburban destinations of that distance.  With a proper metro frequency waiting time decreases, and the overall addition to that 7 minute express gain becomes meaningless.  Stopping all services along the line are largely time competitive with road, but to Frankston and the Peninsula with Eastlink, they are not.

REPLY: wait time is now 5-10 minutes.
So you are going to reduce that by maybe 3, and at the same time increase journey time by 7-10. That crappy service change IS meaningful



and YES, I have been on "proper metro"
EG:
Heathrow - Kings Cross  - 29km 57 minutes
Kings Cross - Cockfosters - 18km 34 minutes
Total Piccadilly line 47 km 91 minutes
compare
Frankston - Flinders St 44km 60 minutes
Metro are NOT fast, they just seem that way 'cause you're cooped up in a tunnel.
Just London, quite worldly.

REPLY: typical smart arsery.
that's just one example, where the journey distance is comparable.
What you fail to recognise is that Metro cities like: London, Paris, Munich, Rome, Milan, Moscow, Madrid, Singapore, Shangai, Beijing, New York, Montreal are vastly smaller geographically than Melbourne.
By the time you reach 20km you're really out in the sticks. (except Singapore)
Melbourne by comparison, you're only about half way - roughly the SRL route.

and YES I have ridden those rails.


Nobody said metros are fast, it's basic knowledge that they aren't, since they rely on close station spacing and high frequencies to maximise patronage.  But they also have substantial turnover, since density and a lack of centralisation means most people only travel a short distance to work - the average journey length in London is only 9km, similar for Paris and Berlin.  

REPLY: sure average 9km - in keeping with much smaller cities

Most people in Melbourne also work close to home, but the low density makes buses more suitable for such trips, however the bus system simply isn't up to scratch, hence why most drive.  Where rail does work is to the city, since road travel becomes noncompetitive and journey paths converge.  The future should be focused on metrofying the network, with extra density along rail lines such that short journeys fall along the path of rail, and to help increase contraflow.

REPLY: sure busses need improvement. Relevance ?
Extra density is happening all over the city as we speak. I thought that was the point of SRL, but you don't like a wheel, just spokes.


Btw, nobody takes the metro from Heathrow, they use the Heathrow express - like Frankston metro vs Frankston express.

REPLY: the discussion is about Metro and you throw in a private EXPRESS train that costs $48, PLUS the Metro cost to get to/from Paddington.
You can sit on your fancy train, I'm with the thousands of others on the tube.


20km new track, with no reservation, and maybe use some of the Eastlink median.
Once you get to the Eastlink/Dandy By-pass intersection: how do you get to Dandy station
Wrong path - since proposed, the plan has always been to connect with the Cranbourne line, either south of the built up regions at the Western Port Hwy (13km) or slightly longer via Eumemmering Creek (14.5km).  You do not need to have a direct path to offer substantial reductions in journey time.

REPLY: So we are now along Thompson's Road?
Which one to buldoze ? Sandhurst ? Lundhurst?
Or just fill in the creek for another freeway (oops railway) like they did in the 60's - never to be repeated.

"south of the built up regions" - that would be Clyde ??



How many stations ??  NONE ?? so again it's just a junket for Mornington ?

So does that make 27km of new railway for the Regional Rail Link a junket for Geelong?  Wait, I forgot, regional services, despite having journey times superior to much of the outer city, are on a special pedestal that demands they have uninterrupted access to the city at any cost.  

@PIMM already answered that rubbish

But a station midway around Thompsons Rd would be useful for connections from Carrum Downs and into the southern industrial regions of Dandenong.  But then again, I'm sure you'd prefer we just instead put the relatively small amount that would be spent on such a project into the much larger expense of dealing with the traffic spewing out of Eastlink.

REPLY: so the answer is ??
ONE plus all the existing stations along the Cranbourne line,
or are you going to quad that track also, so that you can build an EXPRESS (which you so obstinately oppose)


People on here have their priorities all over the place.

REPLY: Not so. Just think the Mornington-Frankston-Dandenong junket is a waste of breath
ZH836301
cheers
John
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
[color=#0066cc][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI, ][b]@ptvcommuter[/b][/font][/size][/color] [color=#0066cc][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI, ][b]@ZH836301[/b][/font][/size][/color] [color=#0066cc][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI, ]True Believers[/font][/size][/color] post here instead of infecting the clyde thread with your nonsense about this stupid railway line.
stooge spark
The irony, someone who spreads more foam than a fire brigade at a fuel fire whining about a 'stupid railway line'.


Let's just rip one out to make them both equal: BS
justarider

Is it that hard to understand - as services increase, those express services will have to go.  I'm not going to bother replying to the rest of what you've written, since I'm just repeating myself, you are just ignoring the realities.


What you fail to recognise is that Metro cities like: London, Paris, Munich, Rome, Milan, Moscow, Madrid, Singapore, Shangai, Beijing, New York, Montreal are vastly smaller geographically than Melbourne...  Melbourne by comparison, you're only about half way - roughly the SRL route.
justarider

Fail to realise?  You think I don't know?  So, how many of those cities have you been to?  I've been to 2/3, you've been to what, one?

The fact that Melbourne is larger, doesn't mean that you can just scale out an orbital and still assume it successful.


REPLY: sure busses need improvement. Relevance ?
justarider

Relevance?  Short journeys, which entail the majority of workplace journeys, are best sorted by buses, not a SRL, which is only suitable for long suburban journeys, which are statistically a rarity.  The money wasted on the SRL could be used to create the perfect bus network, with cash to spare.  

It's hilarious you think a short surface link between Frankston and Dandenong, a parallel to the services offered to regional destinations and consequently long considered, is a junket whilst an impossibly expensive tunnel through low density suburbia for trips that don't even exist is a visionary masterpiece.


PT access to the Peninsula does not require a gold plated railway line via Dandenong. Improving PT services WITHIN the peninsula for its almost 30,000 workers is more important.
Lockie91

Such an argument could be made of any municipality, since apart from inner areas, the vast majority of one's residents work within their municipality, and much of the balance within surrounding council regions.  This is why the SRL makes so little sense, since long distance journeys across multiple municipalities are a rarity.


Lastly phrases like “it’s a no brainer” do not help your cause. Less line drawing and a little more number crunching.
Lockie91

More irony.

In terms of city commuters, Geelong has only 5k residents working in the City of Melbourne (along with 1k in Yarra & Port Phillip), whilst Frankston and the Peninsula have 6.3k (along with 2.5k in Yarra/PP).  Additionally, the former has another 5k jobs along the path to the city (Wyndham, Hobsons, Brimbank & Maribyrnong), whereas the latter has a further 15.6k jobs in Greater Dandenong and Monash alone.

Geelong has very high rail use, with 3.9k using rail, which considering CoM includes the docks and Fishermans Bend, indicates modal share close to saturation.  By comparison, as would be expected given the far inferior service to Frankston and the Peninsula, rail use is only 4.1k, indicating a far lower modal share with significant room for improvement.

You can't discount a link between Frankston and Dandenong without showing hypocrisy towards the way Geelong is treated, and without logically implying that it has a 'gold plated railway'.  This is why I've taken such an interest in this particular project, since it exposes the doublethink and lack of a logical basis to positions that is so pervasive on this site.

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