So... not only are you quoting from that Murdoch rag the Herald-Sun, you are quoting from it's extreme right wing journalist and I use the term loosely.

Absolutely no credibility at all and that reporter has been caught out so often with his extreme views it's a wonder he still has a job...and it's only because he writes for a right wing newspaper that he keeps his job as dog whistler for anything to do with racism, sexism and homophobia.

Mike.

Is there an African gang problem in Melbourne? Probably yes.

Is the media reporting of this problem over the top? Hell yes.

Certain media outlets (namely, Ch7, 3AW and the Herald Sun) & the Liberal party have been frothing at the mouth over this problem for the past 2 years. Reporting every single incident in far greater detail than any other crime that has been committed in Victoria save for last December's Bourke St attack.

Unfortunately for those media outlets, and more so for the Liberal party, most Victorian's see it for what it is, a very small number of youths of Sudanese heritage making life hard for everyone else within their community.

What a shame those same medial outlets (and Liberal politicians) don't put the same effort into tackling something more important?

63 woman were violently killed by men in their lives last year in this country. That is 63 more than have been killed by Sudanese gangs or terrorism yet has not got anywhere near the media coverage, or the political interest. There is a problem worthy of discussion.



That said though, none of any of it really has anything to do with the trains.

Without being racist , the Sudanese immigration program hasn't worked.
Historically the Sudanese are tribal  warriors , that's the way these youths parents were raised and the youths are a product of the warrior environment .

It was a stupid decision by the government to allow them into this country and its time the government accept responsibility for the previous poor decisions made and start removing non law abing Sudanese from Australia .

If they can't be grateful for a new peaceful home and to be supported by taxpayers , get rid of them .

The Sudanese are a protected species , I witnessed it first hand at frankston pier on Australia Day eve . Drunk Sudanese , swearing , hurling abusive language at passer buys and then psychical violence amongst themselves when there was families and young children around . No respect.

The police show up in numbers , not one arrest .the police speaking the to the Sudanese liaison officer asking the liaison officer if all the sudanese who have outstanding warrants can hand themselves in because the police didn't want to disturb the Sudanese good mood .

Pathetic .

The Chelsea beach incident just before Christmas was how the manly riots started . Those scummy Sudanese going through family's bags while enjoying themselves at the beach .

The only thing train related is ; run all the non law abing Sudanese over with a very heavy train and then reverse to make sure the job is done properly

Without being racist , the Sudanese immigration program hasn't worked.
Historically the Sudanese are tribal  warriors , that's the way these youths parents were raised and the youths are a product of the warrior environment .

It was a stupid decision by the government to allow them into this country and its time the government accept responsibility for the previous poor decisions made and start removing non law abing Sudanese from Australia .

If they can't be grateful for a new peaceful home and to be supported by taxpayers , get rid of them .

The Sudanese are a protected species , I witnessed it first hand at frankston pier on Australia Day eve . Drunk Sudanese , swearing , hurling abusive language at passer buys and then psychical violence amongst themselves when there was families and young children around . No respect.

The police show up in numbers , not one arrest .the police speaking the to the Sudanese liaison officer asking the liaison officer if all the sudanese who have outstanding warrants can hand themselves in because the police didn't want to disturb the Sudanese good mood .

Pathetic .

The Chelsea beach incident just before Christmas was how the manly riots started . Those scummy Sudanese going through family's bags while enjoying themselves at the beach .

The only thing train related is ; run all the non law abing Sudanese over with a very heavy train and then reverse to make sure the job is done properly

"Without being racist" is a futile phrase when followed by a blatantly racist statement.

"The only thing train related is ; run all the non law abiding Sudanese over with a very heavy train and then reverse to make sure the job is done properly"

"Pathetic ."

Richard stroker's own words, but rearranged into the correct order.


As soon as someone writes or says, "Without being racist", you know that he is.

If a person is white , black or yellow .

The same punishment should occur .

It doesn't happen. Look at a white person like dustin martins father , deported for associating with bikies .

Sudanese , bashing innocent people , slap on the wrist .

A Sudanese liaison officer , what other race is afforded that ?

It shouldn't matter what race you are , the laws the law and all should be treated the same.

Your opinion please G man,
Would the victims of Sudanese crime ( which is usually coward group behaviour ) be saying it was a good thing to let these people into Australia ?

While I can't deny that there is a disproportionate amount of crime being undertaken by Sudanese gangs, I still think this is getting far too much media attention/hype. Sure, this is worthy of a story, but the ongoing discussions that are given airtime are unjust. They make up a tiny percentage of total crime. Working with community leaders to better understand the situation might help, but alienating Sudanese people certainly won't. I also hate the phrase "African gangs", because they do not represent all of Africa, far from it.

The  crime wave in Victoria by people of African descent has been astonishing, with the latest victim a young woman who was stopped while cycling and carved up by three Africans. I have repeatedly asked of the crime-plagued Sudanese in particular: who let them in? And now we know.

Here is Amanda Vanstone, Immigration Minister in the Howard Government, in January 2007 attacking activists demanding she do more for boat people:

At a time when another major refugee crisis is unfolding in Sudan we should be trying to take a broader perspective.
The latest refugee crisis in Sudan is not the first...
Comparatively little is known of this crisis in Australia. This should be a matter of shame to some refugee advocates within Australia...
Australia has provided permanent resettlement to more than 10,000 people from southern Sudan in the past three years.

Vanstone was Immigration Minister for all that time, having taken over from Phillip Ruddock in 2003:

In 1984, when Labor held government under Bob Hawke, the intake of Sudanese refugees for resettlement was zero. During the ensuing decade just 34 Sudanese refugees were resettled in Australia. The intake jumped to 354 in 1994-95, heralding a rapidly increasing flow of Sudanese every year, rising to 6147 in 2003-2004.
Experts such as Paris Aristotle from the Victorian Foundation for Survivors of Torture say the influx was prompted in part by requests from the UNHCR for Australia to give priority to Africa in refugee resettlement quotas because of the 1994 genocide in Rwanda and the long-running civil war in Sudan...
In Australia, Sudanese-born humanitarian entrants have topped the offshore grants list every year since 2003.

But in 2007 a new Immigration Minister realised a disaster was in the making:

Kevin Andrews, who assumed the role of Immigration Minister on January 30 this year, has turned that sentiment on its head. Within a week of starting in the role, newspapers reported that Andrews planned to seek support from cabinet to drastically reduce the intake of Sudanese refugees because of concerns about a rising tide of Sudanese gangs and related crime.
Over the course of this year, Andrews's concerns about the alleged inability of Sudanese refugees to integrate have become more explicit, culminating on Monday when he made plain that integration was to become one of the key criteria for determining refugee resettlement quotas.
"Some groups don't seem to be settling and adjusting to the Australian way of life as quickly as we would hope, and therefore it makes sense to ... slow down the rate of intake from countries such as Sudan," he said.

Naturally, moral grand-standers of the Left refused to believe there was a problem:

New England independent MP Tony Windsor is not convinced the latest debate does not have an electoral purpose..
"Philip Ruddock for years, when the boatpeople situation was on, used to say, 'We've got to look after the Africans'.
"They seem to have settled in quite well... Kevin Andrews has got a bit of explaining to do, otherwise people will quite rightly say he's playing the race card."

Victoria Police in 2007 spread false information:

But worst was the reaction of Victoria Police, led by Labor-appointed Christine Nixon.
Nixon claimed Andrews was wrong about Sudanese crime rates: “They’re not, in a sense, represented more than the proportion of them in the population.”
A police multicultural liaison officer agreed: “There’s an under-representation of the Sudanese in crime stats.”
Those police claims were false. Figures let slip by Nixon the following year revealed crime rates for Sudanese youth at least four times the state average.

Labor smeared Andrews:

“It has been a long time since I have heard such a pure form of racism out of the mouth of any Australian politician,” sneered Queensland premier Anna Bligh.

The media vilified Andrews, rather than the Immigration Ministers who had put Australians in danger - Vanstone and Ruddock:

The Age accused Andrews of making “unpleasant and inflammatory” comments to provoke “a predictably base reaction from those sensitive to immigration on racial grounds”.

Yet even in 2007, as I wrote at the time, the evidence was urgent and compelling that a grave mistake had been made:

Of course many Sudanese will make excellent contributions to this country. Of course, and of course and of course. But it's also clear that a worrying number of Sudanese immigrants - coming from a very different culture and a much poorer country with much lower standards of education - are struggling to make their way here and to integrate.
Recent signs of that include a huge brawl, worries by Sudanese parents about their uncontrollable children dropping out, concerns by teachers of a lack of " life skills", vicious assaults, and police warnings of gang violence.
A state school principal has also told me how very hard she's found it to integrate the African students in her school, given how few of them have any English or much respect for authority. What makes her challenge worse, she says, is that she has so many of them, leading then naturally to form a "gang" rather than be forced to assimilate.
We can ignore all this, as we usually, do and shout "racist" at those who point out that we have a problem. But we need to rethink just how - or even whether - we resettle immigrants whose culture is so very, very different.

Even Sudanese defenders of the Sudanese refugees back then were actually admitting that we were admitting people more likely to resort to violence:

On 3AW, a Sudanese community spokeswoman asks for understanding: The implication of this journey (as a refugee) could make people prone to be violent.
Er, OK.

And even then, in 2007, the media should have realised our refugee and immigration program - which had already let in hard-to-assimilate Lebanese Muslims - had exposed us to yet another completely needless danger:

A SUDANESE refugee who embarked on a three-day rape spree and sliced an elderly woman's throat a month after reaching Australiawill serve at least the next 17 years in jail.
Hakeem Hakeem, 21, was yesterday sentenced to 24 years' jail, with a non-parole period of 17 years, for a string of depraved sexual attacks in Melbourne's southeast in March 2005.
The Supreme Court heard that, just one month after arriving in Australia, Hakeem set out on a drug and alcohol-fuelled campaign of terror on the streets of Dandenong.

What have we done? Why don't we learn?
And a word from Vanstone and Ruddock on how they got the Sudanese intake so horribly wrong would be useful.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/who-let-in-the-sudanese-amanda-vanstone/news-story/9497646aaac16f3fdfa11673d2a12ea4

Wow Bevans why are you regurgitating crap from Andrew Bolt? The Vinelander is right, Journalism is a loose word when describing Bolt who come across as a most dreadful bottom feeding homophobic racist, who is just furious with everything that he does not agree with.

A man who says that faith schools should expel all gay and lesbian students and openly discriminate them. A man who so thin skinned as to take offence at a spokeswomen who stated in a meeting that all men should have a deep hard look at themselves after Euradyce Dixon was murdered. A man that thinks that we should not be humanitarian towards Sudanese migrants many of whom were fleeing for their lives because a few Sudanese scumbags break the law, no matter that the vast majority are law abiding citizens, they are just not like us, he argues. Man that a..hole cracks the smeg at people celebrating Chinese New Year!!

Bolt is a person who whips up like minded people into a frenzy with his divisive rhetoric about African Gangs. Africa is a big bloody continent! And Muslims and Gays. Thank god his Coalition friends in this State got their collective butts kicked in the State Election. And as long as they have Conservative Headbangers like Davis in their I hope they never return to power.

I hold no candle for Amanda Vanstone but she is worth 200 of Andrew Bolt.

Michael

Without being racist , the Sudanese immigration program hasn't worked.
Historically the Sudanese are tribal  warriors , that's the way these youths parents were raised and the youths are a product of the warrior environment .

Without being racist. Whilst being casually racist.

It was a stupid decision by the government to allow them into this country and its time the government accept responsibility for the previous poor decisions made and start removing non law abing Sudanese from Australia .
So you want to get rid of all Sudanese, even the law abiding ones. For being Sudanese

If they can't be grateful for a new peaceful home and to be supported by taxpayers , get rid of them.

Most Sudanese are grateful and have contributed to Australia, but I can say that till I am blue in the face and people like you will never hear it.

The Sudanese are a protected species , I witnessed it first hand at frankston pier on Australia Day eve . Drunk Sudanese, swearing , hurling abusive language at passer buys and then psychical violence amongst themselves when there was families and young children around . No respect.

Absolute disgusting scum behaviour from unruly youth showing no respect. But according to you all Sudanese are swearing drunken scum. And of course according to you only Sudanese become drunk, abusive and fight amongst themselves.

The police show up in numbers , not one arrest .the police speaking the to the Sudanese liaison officer asking the liaison officer if all the sudanese who have outstanding warrants can hand themselves in because the police didn't want to disturb the Sudanese good mood .

Pathetic .

The Chelsea beach incident just before Christmas was how the manly riots started . Those scummy Sudanese going through family's bags while enjoying themselves at the beach.

Yeah effing disgusting, and they perpetrators should feel the full weight of the law, but I get the distinct feeling that you would like all Sudanese arrested, not to be trusted those damn Sudanese. You cannot hold all Sudanese responsible for the disgusting few.

The only thing train related is ; run all the non law abing Sudanese over with a very heavy train and then reverse to make sure the job is done properly.

Really you want to run them over and kill them for stealing from bags, being drunk and abusive and fighting amongst themselves, whilst disgusting in itself you really think that is warranted? Man we do not even meet out that kind of punishment to the most vile of criminals.


Michael

Well done Bevans for sticking to your guns on this thread.

Let's recap the talking points of the zombie-like politically correct commentators so far:

Quoting from the Age that Africans commit only 2% of all Victorian crime, while omitting the rather inconvenient fact they are substantially less than 2% of the Victorian population.

Quoting the Victorian Crime Statistics Agency as alleging that only 1% of assaults are committed by people of Sudanese origin, which of course conveniently ignores the crime committed by Sudanese who have been born here. Not to mention Somali crime.

Ridiculous justifications that you are X times more likely to be assaulted by a white person, which is of course the case when whites are (for now) the majority of the population. (And the idea that Australia is still 90% white is almost touchingly complacent and naive.)

The argument that "OK, Africans commit disproportionate levels of crime, but it's only a small number of African individuals and it's all right-wing fear-mongering and therefore not worth worrying about". Which might sound plausible if you're an Age writer/reader in North Carlton, Fitzroy or let's say Ballan, but not if your neighbourhood was "lucky" enough to be selected for African refugee settlement - in which case, your chances of being assaulted or home invaded are actually quite significant. And of course it's not just the actual assaults that are the problem - it's the ever-present threat of violent crime, or being glowered at or threatened by gangs of African "yoof" hanging on street corners. No crime has occurred, but your life is still significantly poorer. And what happens as the African population grows and their crime affects more people? Will the impact still be "insignificant" then? Of course not.

And of course we get the default standby, "That's racist". And....??? The facts are racist. Deal with it. There's a reason why we don't see a lot of Railpagers packing up and moving to Mogadishu or the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

I've been a keen follower of the multicultural experiment in the UK (and Europe), and it's fascinating to see the same BS and obfuscation peddled by the Guardian/BBC and their small-"L" liberal useful idiots, now being peddled 10 or more years later by the Age and the ABC, and people on this board. Hell, the Guardian and BBC are still at it even as their multicultural utopia (see "grooming gangs", acid attacks, a knife epidemic among black yoof, honour killings, FGM, Islamic terrorism and Sharia patrols, etc etc.) disintegrates in flames around their tone-deaf ears. Seems people like to be brainwashed, and need to learn certain realities the hard way.

Anyway, back to the usual programming.

Just out of curiosity, what is the African population of Ballan these days?

Not that it's any of your business...it's well known that I work in the City and with blatantly racist comments such as this, your life in here may be quite short lived

@ADB Hi hum yet another furious racist. We have all been brainwashed but your racist rantings is wholly based sound reasoning. You want to get that head out of your backside mate.

Michael

I think there are some cultural issues at play, just as there has been with many 2nd generation migrants who have arrived on our shores.  In their original countries it's not uncommon for parents to expect schools to discipline and straighten out their kids, but then discover our relatively lax school discipline hasn't done so, and by the time they're teenagers it's virtually too late.

Add in a mix of rejection, fear, and ethnic atomization, and before long you'll have 'ethnic gangs' appear on the streets.  If pro-active policing measures aren't put in place as well, then you'll and up with vigilantes in response to PSOs etc standing back watching people get robbed and bashed, regardless of the race or ethnicity of the gangs.

Dog-whistling by Blair Cottrell and his gym-junkie mates, along with media hysteria, will only exacerbate the problem.

An election approaches. You would think that the lesson of the Victorian election was learned, but then again perhaps it's not for Victorian consumption.

When a Beginner’s first contributions to Railpage are in this thread, one wonders.

Railpage’s standing is being eroded.

An election approaches. You would think that the lesson of the Victorian election was learned, but then again perhaps it's not for Victorian consumption.

When a Beginner’s first contributions to Railpage are in this thread, one wonders.

Railpage’s standing is being eroded.

Our recent blow-in racist may have already worn out his welcome...

Mike.

Railpage’s standing is being eroded.

I must say RP already has a very poor reputation on the rest of the internet these days. Threads like this are why.

Well done Bevans for sticking to your guns on this thread.

Let's recap the talking points of the zombie-like politically correct commentators so far:

Quoting from the Age that Africans commit only 2% of all Victorian crime, while omitting the rather inconvenient fact they are substantially less than 2% of the Victorian population.

Quoting the Victorian Crime Statistics Agency as alleging that only 1% of assaults are committed by people of Sudanese origin, which of course conveniently ignores the crime committed by Sudanese who have been born here. Not to mention Somali crime.

Ridiculous justifications that you are X times more likely to be assaulted by a white person, which is of course the case when whites are (for now) the majority of the population. (And the idea that Australia is still 90% white is almost touchingly complacent and naive.)

The argument that "OK, Africans commit disproportionate levels of crime, but it's only a small number of African individuals and it's all right-wing fear-mongering and therefore not worth worrying about". Which might sound plausible if you're an Age writer/reader in North Carlton, Fitzroy or let's say Ballan, but not if your neighbourhood was "lucky" enough to be selected for African refugee settlement - in which case, your chances of being assaulted or home invaded are actually quite significant. And of course it's not just the actual assaults that are the problem - it's the ever-present threat of violent crime, or being glowered at or threatened by gangs of African "yoof" hanging on street corners. No crime has occurred, but your life is still significantly poorer. And what happens as the African population grows and their crime affects more people? Will the impact still be "insignificant" then? Of course not.

And of course we get the default standby, "That's racist". And....??? The facts are racist. Deal with it. There's a reason why we don't see a lot of Railpagers packing up and moving to Mogadishu or the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

I've been a keen follower of the multicultural experiment in the UK (and Europe), and it's fascinating to see the same BS and obfuscation peddled by the Guardian/BBC and their small-"L" liberal useful idiots, now being peddled 10 or more years later by the Age and the ABC, and people on this board. Hell, the Guardian and BBC are still at it even as their multicultural utopia (see "grooming gangs", acid attacks, a knife epidemic among black yoof, honour killings, FGM, Islamic terrorism and Sharia patrols, etc etc.) disintegrates in flames around their tone-deaf ears. Seems people like to be brainwashed, and need to learn certain realities the hard way.

Anyway, back to the usual programming.

I think this guy has gone already. If not, please go away and mingle with your other racist troublemakers.

Your opinion please G man,
Would the victims of Sudanese crime ( which is usually coward group behaviour ) be saying it was a good thing to let these people into Australia ?

There is no such thing as Sudanese crime in Australia, only in Sudan.

In Australia we have one system of law for everybody. Nobody gets special treatment, every case is treated on its own merit.

The way those crimes are handled by the mass media is an entirely different story.


To answer your question though, I wouldn't assume all victims of any particular type of crime would all have the same opinion. Yes, some may well think that, but then again, that is why we have a system of law that doesn't allow the victims to apply the verdict or set the sentence. That would just be anarchy.


I don't see anybody asking the same question of people of other nationalities.

It is also important to note that many of these supposed Sudanese youths are actually Australian citizens. Many of them were even born here. This means they have as much right to be here as anybody, whether you like that or not.

If a person is white , black or yellow . The same punishment should occur .
It doesn't happen.
Look at a white person like dustin martins father , deported for associating with bikies .
Sudanese , bashing innocent people , slap on the wrist .
A Sudanese liaison officer , what other race is afforded that ?
It shouldn't matter what race you are , the laws the law and all should be treated the same.

Where are you getting your information from? The media or are you working within the justice system? I will assume the former.

Look at a white person like dustin martins father , deported for associating with bikies .

Don't assume the media reported all of the facts of this case, the only facts they have reported are those from the side of the Martin family. The only reason this case got any media coverage is because Dustin Martin is good at football, which has nothing to do with anything. There is always a lot more to the story.

Sudanese , bashing innocent people , slap on the wrist .

Where? Who? Or are you just making an assumption based on what you have heard somewhere? Have you personally witnessed it in court?

A Sudanese liaison officer , what other race is afforded that ?

There are other ethnic groups that have in the past had liaison officers, and others that still do. The media may not have reported about them recently, but they do exist.

You see, focusing on one ethnic group is nothing new. In the '90s it was the Vietnamese, in the '60s and '70s it was the Italians and Greeks. It is nothing new.


Oh, and Richard, one minor detail: You don't need to place a space before each and every comma, only after the comma. That is just annoying and makes your post harder to read.

@ADB Hi hum yet another furious racist. We have all been brainwashed but your racist rantings is wholly based sound reasoning. You want to get that head out of your backside mate.

Michael

Right, so you (and others) have ignored all my reasoned arguments and and gone straight to, "That's racist". Well done on missing the point entirely.

Just out of curiosity, what is the African population of Ballan these days?

Not that it's any of your business...it's well known that I work in the City and with blatantly racist comments such as this, your life in here may be quite short lived

Right, so in other words you DON'T have to sit at home worrying about home invasions, or junior getting mugged on the way home from school.

As for my tenure here being "short-lived", that's the classic lefty/globalist response: If I can't counter the arguments, ban them! Positively Stalinesque.

Vinelander isn't banning you (he isn't a moderator, so doesn't have that power)

But since your entire contribution to this forum seems to revolve around a racial argument, yeah, that makes you seem pretty shallow. I mean, mate, you have joined up to a railfan forum to spin a racist argument, and then you are getting upset when you are called out on it.  Like Vinelander, I have seen people like you come and go before. There is a word for people like you. Troll.

On the other hand, if you have something worthwhile to add, that would be great.

Oh and by the way, I live in an area with a higher than average population of "Sudanese" and I feel perfectly safe.



I still don't understand what any of this rubbish has to do with railways and trains. This thread should either be relocated, or better yet, closed all together. What a waste of bandwidth.

Vinelander isn't banning you (he isn't a moderator, so doesn't have that power)

But since your entire contribution to this forum seems to revolve around a racial argument, yeah, that makes you seem pretty shallow. I mean, mate, you have joined up to a railfan forum to spin a racist argument, and then you are getting upset when you are called out on it.  Like Vinelander, I have seen people like you come and go before. There is a word for people like you, Troll.

On the other hand, if you have something worthwhile to add, that would be great.

Oh and by the way, I live in an area with a higher than average population of "Sudanese" and I feel perfectly safe.



I still don't understand what any of this rubbish has to do with railways and trains. This thread should either be relocated, or better yet, closed all together. What a waste of bandwidth.

I am a (born again) gunzel and have been a long-time lurker on Railpage, but seeing as I don't know much about the engineering side of things etc, I haven't seen the point in posting before. When I saw a political argument and the way Bevans was being attacked, I thought it was time to log in and counter the BS statistics and labelling-to-shut-down-opposition, being employed.

Discussions around the importation of ethnic groups that commit disproportionate levels of violent crime are far from "shallow". In fact, they are a lot more meaningful and pertinent than discussing the finer points of, say a traction motor on an EL versus VL class (although I would read the latter discussion!). The latter discussion may well be a lot more appropriate for Railpage, but I noticed you and the poiltically-correct crowd had no problem chiming into this thread with your ten cents' worth, either. So basically, this boils down to you whining that people who disagree with you are having a say. Too bad.

I'm not getting upset at all. It's those screaming and crying "racist" and insinuating that I should be banned that have got their knickers in a twist. If you think me defending myself against these hysterics is "trolling", well, you need to re-acquaint yourself with the definition of the word.

I'm glad you feel safe in your area. Having worked out west in the past, I know of a number of individuals who no longer feel the same way.

@ADB Hi hum yet another furious racist. We have all been brainwashed but your racist rantings is wholly based sound reasoning. You want to get that head out of your backside mate.

Michael

Right, so you (and others) have ignored all my reasoned arguments and and gone straight to, "That's racist". Well done on missing the point entirely.

Mate you have basically said that we should not let any Sudanese on the Basis of a few scumbags. Run them all over because a number of Sudanese smegheads were thieving bastards. That all knife crime in London is because of black youths, and all muslims want sharia law based on what you see on the Internet. Really, and I have missed the point? I heard it all before and if you think that the absolute rubbish that you have obviously got from some far-right site or the Daily Mail is reasoned and/or clever then you are seriously deluding yourself. If you want to talk such crap, fine, just expect a verbal kicking and dont bloody whine about it.

Michael

I am a (born again) gunzel and have been a long-time lurker on Railpage, but seeing as I don't know much about the engineering side of things etc, I haven't seen the point in posting before. When I saw a political argument and the way Bevans was being attacked, I thought it was time to log in and counter the BS statistics and labelling-to-shut-down-opposition, being employed.

Well sonshine, if you spent the same amount of time asking questions regarding, the engineering side of things, image how much you may have learnt.  But instead, you've launched on here with this sort of redneck rhetoric and wonder why you get the raw prawn from everybody.

If that's the only contribution your going to have, your going to quickly run out of people to argue with.

Well said Gman, how about we leave this thread here and get back to the rails.

BigShunter.