Consist(s) for 60s/70s Snowy Express/Ski Express

 
  Gremlin Assistant Commissioner

Hi All

Looking for the consist(s) of the 1960s/1970s Snowy Express/Ski Express that left Central on Friday nights, as I recall hauled by a 44 class until Goulburn then swapped to 48 class.  I am not thinking of the Mail train, these were a dedicated service that didn't stop at every tin shed on the way down Smile

Cheers

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  c3526blue Deputy Commissioner

Location: in the cuckoos nest
Hi All

Looking for the consist(s) of the 1960s/1970s Snowy Express/Ski Express that left Central on Friday nights, as I recall hauled by a 44 class until Goulburn then swapped to 48 class.  I am not thinking of the Mail train, these were a dedicated service that didn't stop at every tin shed on the way down Smile

Cheers
Gremlin
Yes, it did stop at every tin shed.  How else could they perform safeworking on the single line south of Joppa Jct?  LOL.

The former RTM had some articles in their magazine Roundhouse regarding the Kosciuszko Ski Expresses.

Probably the ARHS also covered this train in the Bulletin and Digest.

Happy skiing,

John
  neillfarmer Chief Train Controller

Nah, it was 38 class between Central and Goulburn and 32+32 class between Goulburn and Cooma. All locomotives fitted for steam heat. I cannot help much with the consist but the sitting cars on the one trip I did were MCEs and FS and the sleepers were TAMs, all fitted for steam heat
  Gremlin Assistant Commissioner

Nah, it was 38 class between Central and Goulburn and 32+32 class between Goulburn and Cooma. All locomotives fitted for steam heat. I cannot help much with the consist but the sitting cars on the one trip I did were MCEs and FS and the sleepers were TAMs, all fitted for steam heat
neillfarmer
That's odd...when I was a child on the train in the late 60s/early 70s, the only heating was by the water-filled canisters, and they ran out of heat really quickly!  I don't recall the TAMs being heated as it was freezing all night Sad

[EDIT]
And it was only diesel...
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
The 1972 NSWGR consist list and they still had the Southern Aurora on P.18 listed as the Melbourne Limited Express

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11UP3lIT5_BscNWhE50QwfKULvUfS59IP/view
  Gremlin Assistant Commissioner

The 1972 NSWGR consist list and they still had the Southern Aurora on P.18 listed as the Melbourne Limited Express

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11UP3lIT5_BscNWhE50QwfKULvUfS59IP/view
petan
Thank you, that is an extremely informative document!  Sadly, only the Cooma Mail (train #11) departing 2047 on p20...but how do I read the consist?

XFS (6), XAM (4), XBS(5)...what do the numbers in brackets represent?

Cheers
  a6et Minister for Railways

Nah, it was 38 class between Central and Goulburn and 32+32 class between Goulburn and Cooma. All locomotives fitted for steam heat. I cannot help much with the consist but the sitting cars on the one trip I did were MCEs and FS and the sleepers were TAMs, all fitted for steam heat
That's odd...when I was a child on the train in the late 60s/early 70s, the only heating was by the water-filled canisters, and they ran out of heat really quickly!  I don't recall the TAMs being heated as it was freezing all night Sad

[EDIT]
And it was only diesel...
Gremlin
Neil, While tabled for a 38cl, it could also be a 36cl up front as the load was very much inside that for a pig. Problem was how many of those engines that had steam heating fitted were still in service?  The temporary storing of the pigs meant they were not available, so careful rostering of 38's for the service was needed.

At the time only 4 32's were still available for the train with steam heating equipment, 2 based at Goulburn, one on loan to Temora 3326, with the other 3 3214, 16 and 82, with two generally kept at Goulburn. There was a period when one of the GLB engines was out of service and arrangements put in place that a non steam heater engine was to lead through to Cooma with the steam heated one on the train, the hope was that the single steam heated 32 would not fail, but they were rigorously checked over by the fitters at GLBN.

When the steam heating was removed, the carriages used on the mail as well as the ski service were fitted with electric heating which was basically useless, owing to the heat being supplied through a generator supply and jumper coupling arrangement on GLBN based 48cl and several Mk 1 44cl, the later working between Sydney - Glbn & Return.  The problem with this arrangement was that to get the heaters working at the correct rating meant the diesels had to work in #4 T/N, something basically impossible for the overall journey.

The main part of the Short South was all uphill on the down, meaning the 44cl had to work in 8t/n for the vast amount of time, when going down grades or flats, the generator field was turned off so to just have the prime mover running at the higher revs to supply the power or use dynamic brake if working, that worked pretty well on the up as much of the up train could be well controlled by using dynamic brake.  Catch was that often one of the few 44's that had the jumper arrangement may not be available, so the 2x48's took the train through to Sydney.

On the Cooma section, again the undulating and grading of the line did not provide the most ideal conditions as often just as the carriages were warming up a bit, there was a need to actually power up the train engines, baring in mind no dyno's on 48cl meant a constant running with the PM reving almost all the way.

I understand that as a concession, the foot warmers were also included in the trains when the steam heating was removed after the first few trips when the deficiencies with the electrical heating setup came to light.

From memory, the mail and ski express were generally a random set that had carriages fitted with steam heating and then with the electrical set up.  TAM's were the primary sleepers and any of the 72'6 cars, or FS/BS were used.

There was one season in the 60's when an additional train was also run, it had no sleeping cars, but one carriage was stripped of seating with a band playing all the way.   Sitting only cars were on it, however it only lasted a short time owing to getting engines available along with alcohol problems.

Finally, one Van was supplied for both ordinary luggage and for the extra's that skiers took with them such as ski's and the like, making 2 vans as required.  IIRC, the service was also a booked seat train as well one of the first older type trains to go that way.
  michaelgm Deputy Commissioner

With steam heating in use, are different fire management techniques required to provide steam?
Or usage minimal such that not an issue?
  a6et Minister for Railways

With steam heating in use, are different fire management techniques required to provide steam?
Or usage minimal such that not an issue?
michaelgm
There is a steam valve set up on the backhead of the firebox in the cab, firemans side, it pipe connects via a flexible connection between engine and tender to  a main connection hose on the drivers side of the tender, the hose the connects to a flexible hose on the other side of the carriage, meaning a cross over connection same method as air hoses.

In the cab, there is a steam gauge and control valve that sets the steam pressure at 45psi constant to supply through out the train.  I never worked on such trains, but I fired for an ex Goulbourn driver, who worked as acting driver on the Goulburn diagram, which was primarily working the mails & expresses many of which were steam heated in the designated period. During discussions with him he said that under normal conditions it never  was an issue for him, & I learnt heaps of him.

It was always the ideal to maintain steam at least to 80% bp, ideally though within 5-10psi under max bp to prevent blowing off, much of that depended on coal quality, then engine condition.  Generally though top quality coal, either Northern or Wollondilly was used on the 36 & especially 38's
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

I may be mistaken, and would have to check the books, but I thought the carriages electrically heated from a power van, EFS, ECM, EAM, were converted for the Ski Express, and an RHG (later PHV) power van was used.
  a6et Minister for Railways

I may be mistaken, and would have to check the books, but I thought the carriages electrically heated from a power van, EFS, ECM, EAM, were converted for the Ski Express, and an RHG (later PHV) power van was used.
NSWRcars
Could have been in the final year as the old diesel set up was useless but it continued on for some time.  Many of the mails had carriages converted to have LPG heaters on them, some were on the floor while others were fitted to the end walls above door heights.

Over the years especially after the steam heating was withdrawn the size of the train was gradually reduced from its heydays of needing two 32cl and around 7 carriages. I can remember seeing it pull into Goulburn one morning as we arrived from Enfield and was quite a sight owing to it being so cold, there was as much steam leaks coming from the union pipes along and under the train as well as from hose connections, of particular not was the amount of windows that were actually open owing to the heat in the compartments.  A lot of passengers did not realise there was a slide vent on the bottom of the wall between the seats to adjust and let in more or less heat.

I have tried to check through my books but cannot find much on the trains and set up. Somewhere I have a small booklet Y produced by the Cooma Historical SCTY on the line, in celebration of its opening, there was some info in that booklet sad thoughthe train that went down to celebrate with 1210 & 5910 up front ended up being the last to run.
  Piston Train Controller

The July 1989 edition of the ARHS Bulletin magazine has full details of the Kosciusko Snow Express
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

According to Coaching Stock of the NSWR, the Kosciusko Snow Express converted from steam to electric heating (supplied by power van) in Winter 1967.

The cars converted were:

5 x EAM (ex TAM);

1 x ECM (ex MCE);

1 x EFS (ex FS);

1 x EHG (power van ex MHG).

X series cars heated from locomotive main generator supply were for the Cooma Mail (not the ski express) from 1962.
  Gremlin Assistant Commissioner

According to Coaching Stock of the NSWR, the Kosciusko Snow Express converted from steam to electric heating (supplied by power van) in Winter 1967.

The cars converted were:

5 x EAM (ex TAM);

1 x ECM (ex MCE);

1 x EFS (ex FS);

1 x EHG (power van ex MHG).

X series cars heated from locomotive main generator supply were for the Cooma Mail (not the ski express) from 1962.
NSWRcars
Thanks!
  a6et Minister for Railways

According to Coaching Stock of the NSWR, the Kosciusko Snow Express converted from steam to electric heating (supplied by power van) in Winter 1967.

The cars converted were:

5 x EAM (ex TAM);

1 x ECM (ex MCE);

1 x EFS (ex FS);

1 x EHG (power van ex MHG).

X series cars heated from locomotive main generator supply were for the Cooma Mail (not the ski express) from 1962.
NSWRcars
Thanks for sharing that, i tried looking it up in my copies but couldn't find it.  I can remember though that the snow season in the year the electric heating was introduced also had the 32's available as the replacement set did have some issues, when introduced.
  Gremlin Assistant Commissioner

"...the Kosciusko Snow Express converted from steam to electric heating (supplied by power van) in Winter 1967."

Well, I can assure you it didn't work on any of those I took in 1969/1970!!!

Freezing...or character building Smile
  M636C Minister for Railways

According to Coaching Stock of the NSWR, the Kosciusko Snow Express converted from steam to electric heating (supplied by power van) in Winter 1967.

The cars converted were:

5 x EAM (ex TAM);

1 x ECM (ex MCE);

1 x EFS (ex FS);

1 x EHG (power van ex MHG).

X series cars heated from locomotive main generator supply were for the Cooma Mail (not the ski express) from 1962.
NSWRcars
If you know where to look in "Coaching Stock" there was also a baggage van converted from an LHG (actually one of two LHGs converted as extra terminal cars for RUB sets with buffer plates and auto couplers, and painted red). The car was renumbered GHO 1800, the number being in the freight series, and painted Indian red with a yellow stripe at frame level (like the EHG). It was intended to provide space for ski storage. I recall it being used on the inaugural trip of the electrically heated stock.

I know it is in the book because they used my (poor) photo....

Peter
  neillfarmer Chief Train Controller

A few comments raised from above. I travelled on a few steam heated trains, it was a very effective method of heating. There was a vent or water trap on each car to ensure that the steam flowed throughout the train, maybe this is what was seen as leaks. There were probably the odd real leak too. I travelled on most short south passenger trains in the middle 1960s, apart from the loop line passengers they were all 38 class hauled. The loop line trains could be 32 or 36 class.
In summer the Goulburn steam heated 32 class were often scattered, I remember seeing 3282 at Dubbo once.
The steam locos fitted for steam heating were fairly numerous, 20 of the 36 class and  17 of the 38 class. I don't have information for the 32 class.
I don't recall the Mail trains being steam heated, they mostly relied on foot warmers that were nowhere near as good. The other steam heated south trains at this time would have been No.s 19 & 20 Southern Highlands Express and 49/50 Moss Vale train.
When the Melbourne Expresses were steam they also would have been steam heated.
Some very interesting comments above, feel free to correct or comment further.
Neill Farmer
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
The 1972 NSWGR consist list and they still had the Southern Aurora on P.18 listed as the Melbourne Limited Express

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11UP3lIT5_BscNWhE50QwfKULvUfS59IP/view
Thank you, that is an extremely informative document!  Sadly, only the Cooma Mail (train #11) departing 2047 on p20...but how do I read the consist?

XFS (6), XAM (4), XBS(5)...what do the numbers in brackets represent?

Cheers
Gremlin
The numbers in brackets are the car numbers as the numbers shown for the Brisbane Limited Express are 1 to 9 and the Brisbane Express are 14 to 20
  Gremlin Assistant Commissioner

The 1972 NSWGR consist list and they still had the Southern Aurora on P.18 listed as the Melbourne Limited Express

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11UP3lIT5_BscNWhE50QwfKULvUfS59IP/view
Thank you, that is an extremely informative document!  Sadly, only the Cooma Mail (train #11) departing 2047 on p20...but how do I read the consist?

XFS (6), XAM (4), XBS(5)...what do the numbers in brackets represent?

Cheers
The numbers in brackets are the car numbers as the numbers shown for the Brisbane Limited Express are 1 to 9 and the Brisbane Express are 14 to 20
petan

Thanks for that...
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
"...the Kosciusko Snow Express converted from steam to electric heating (supplied by power van) in Winter 1967."

Well, I can assure you it didn't work on any of those I took in 1969/1970!!!

Freezing...or character building Smile
Gremlin
I seem to recall a lot of close cuddling on the school ski excursion, 1973.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
I seem to recall a lot of close cuddling on the school ski excursion, 1973.
"apw5910"
The Greens would love it - a very energy-efficient way of keeping warm. Unwanted emissions could be a bit of a problem, but they'd only have a limited effect on warming.
  a6et Minister for Railways

A few comments raised from above. I travelled on a few steam heated trains, it was a very effective method of heating. There was a vent or water trap on each car to ensure that the steam flowed throughout the train, maybe this is what was seen as leaks. There were probably the odd real leak too. I travelled on most short south passenger trains in the middle 1960s, apart from the loop line passengers they were all 38 class hauled. The loop line trains could be 32 or 36 class.
In summer the Goulburn steam heated 32 class were often scattered, I remember seeing 3282 at Dubbo once.
The steam locos fitted for steam heating were fairly numerous, 20 of the 36 class and  17 of the 38 class. I don't have information for the 32 class.
I don't recall the Mail trains being steam heated, they mostly relied on foot warmers that were nowhere near as good. The other steam heated south trains at this time would have been No.s 19 & 20 Southern Highlands Express and 49/50 Moss Vale train.
When the Melbourne Expresses were steam they also would have been steam heated.
Some very interesting comments above, feel free to correct or comment further.
Neill Farmer
neillfarmer
Neil, Certainly the Southern lines were the only ones with steam heating, doubt if those in power ever travelled to the Northern Tablelands or Western lines in winter and the edges of it..  The problem with steam heating for mails was that in so many cases they were split at various locations along the way with carriages going on to mixed services and consists going to other destinations.  So it was the through trains of note on the south that had consists with steam heating, such as the two Melbourne trains, the others were the Cooma Mail, and the Kosciusko service, along with the Southern Highlands exp and Moss Vale service.

While there seemed a lot of loco's fitted with steam heating, especially the pigs and 38's in the primary steam heating years it could be a balancing act for rostering in having enough of them based either at Eveleigh or Enfield for the trains. I recollect that in addition to the  32's I mentioned earlier 14, 16, 82 & 3326, 3378 was another that was equipped with steam heating, when steam heating was used Goulburn had 3 of them on their allotment.

One area where leaks were found was at the hose connections with the seals leaking.

The worst aspect of the foot warmers was once again from the boffins in charge, they were put into the compartments around 20 minutes prior to departure, but they usually were at best luke warm after 3-4 hours some locations such a Bathurst, and Werris Creek sometimes replaced them with reheated ones, I had that happen on several occasions at BX.
  Gremlin Assistant Commissioner

"...the Kosciusko Snow Express converted from steam to electric heating (supplied by power van) in Winter 1967."

Well, I can assure you it didn't work on any of those I took in 1969/1970!!!

Freezing...or character building Smile
I seem to recall a lot of close cuddling on the school ski excursion, 1973.
apw5910

How strange!!  I was there in 73 as well...

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