Electrification To Wallan

 
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
If Wallan is completed or or by some amazing foresight Seymour is done I would suggest this would be the time to run via the airport as no diesel would be required and diesel trains are far from suitable for the airport line. Kilmore east is worthy of discussion for the area is also growing and could provide services for heathcote users.

Still all yak and no action in Vic.

On the subject of SG to Seymour how would this work ?
Yep, I was thinking the same.  Run 25 kV AC electrics all the way from SCS to Wallan via Airport.  It raises the prospect of whether SRL also goes 25kV too?

Seymour would only go SG if Shepp does too in my opinion.  Convert the East BG track to SG in the process, and Northern BG Albion track to SG too.

And then there's that old chestnut of HSR and running that via the airport - Make Airport link SG if that goes ahead?
Carnot
not going to happen

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  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Still all yak and no action in Vic.
freightgate
You're the one that's all yak here; criticise the planning and prioritisation all you like but it's decades since there's been as much action as there is now. Maybe - just maybe - electric trains to Seymour is a flipping ridiculous idea and that's why no one has ever proposed it. Crikey, it's the least patronised commuter line on the system, and was even before the RFR upgrades left it behind.

Yep, I was thinking the same.  Run 25 kV AC electrics all the way from SCS to Wallan via Airport.  It raises the prospect of whether SRL also goes 25kV too?

Seymour would only go SG if Shepp does too in my opinion.  Convert the East BG track to SG in the process, and Northern BG Albion track to SG too.

And then there's that old chestnut of HSR and running that via the airport - Make Airport link SG if that goes ahead?
Carnot

Much as Railpage has liked this idea over the years DD707 is spot on the money - this ain't happening any more.

There's an expectation that the Airport route on the up side of Sunshine will be shared with Geelong/Ballarat services in the near term. This means no SG to the Airport, because the cost of converting Geelong/Ballarat would be astronomical for little to no benefit. My view is that that also means BG for the SRL, on the grounds that they will want interoperability when it eventually meets the Airport line.

25kV is another question that ultimately depends on what is chosen for Geelong/Ballarat. If it's decided to electrify the longer sections of line at the same time as WV/Melton get 1500V, you can assume the Airport line will get the same treatment. If not - I'd say 1500V.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Yep, I was thinking the same.  Run 25 kV AC electrics all the way from SCS to Wallan via Airport.  It raises the prospect of whether SRL also goes 25kV too?

Seymour would only go SG if Shepp does too in my opinion.  Convert the East BG track to SG in the process, and Northern BG Albion track to SG too.

And then there's that old chestnut of HSR and running that via the airport - Make Airport link SG if that goes ahead?
Carnot

Joining the chat and thought how interesting the proposal was for Wallan or Kilmore East.  Through running via the Airport for the North East has merit but would crowding of these service detract from the airport line services?

Are you advocating for SG wired service via Albion to the Airport thence to the NOrth east with Dual SG tracks north from Jacana?  This is most interesting using same rolling stock?? as proposed for Geelong Electrification?

Agree diesel hauled via the airport is not a good look for Victoria and not practical.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Yep, I was thinking the same.  Run 25 kV AC electrics all the way from SCS to Wallan via Airport.  It raises the prospect of whether SRL also goes 25kV too?

Seymour would only go SG if Shepp does too in my opinion.  Convert the East BG track to SG in the process, and Northern BG Albion track to SG too.

And then there's that old chestnut of HSR and running that via the airport - Make Airport link SG if that goes ahead?

Joining the chat and thought how interesting the proposal was for Wallan or Kilmore East.  Through running via the Airport for the North East has merit but would crowding of these service detract from the airport line services?

Are you advocating for SG wired service via Albion to the Airport thence to the NOrth east with Dual SG tracks north from Jacana?  This is most interesting using same rolling stock?? as proposed for Geelong Electrification?

Agree diesel hauled via the airport is not a good look for Victoria and not practical.
bevans
I was thinking 25 kV AC SCS-Sunshine-Airport-Beveridge-Wallan - (i.e. along OMR-E6 alignment, with opportunity for electrification on to Seymour).

I think the reality will be more like what PIMM has suggested.  Broad Gauge 4 Eva!
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I was thinking 25 kV AC SCS-Sunshine-Airport-Beveridge-Wallan - (i.e. along OMR-E6 alignment, with opportunity for electrification on to Seymour).

I think the reality will be more like what PIMM has suggested.  Broad Gauge 4 Eva!
Carnot

Understand and concur, but extend this to Ballarat and RRL to Geelong making all outer suburban services (V/Line regional) to become AC rather than DC extensions?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

I was thinking 25 kV AC SCS-Sunshine-Airport-Beveridge-Wallan - (i.e. along OMR-E6 alignment, with opportunity for electrification on to Seymour).

I think the reality will be more like what PIMM has suggested.  Broad Gauge 4 Eva!

Understand and concur, but extend this to Ballarat and RRL to Geelong making all outer suburban services (V/Line regional) to become AC rather than DC extensions?
bevans
Practically speaking, the extensions of the suburban network to WV and Melton will have to be 1500V DC and BG, simply because they will most likely be interacting with the existing network in some form.

It is almost certain that express tracks will be built along both of these routes through the extended suburban area. The question of whether they will be electrified at all is not a certain one. The most persuasive factor in favour of doing so would be the ability to use an express tunnel route from SCS-Sunshine. That said, if the tunnel were instead used for Airport and WV/Melton services there would be no reason to electrify the longer routes at all. Remember that 40 minutes to Geelong and 60 to Ballarat is achievable using the existing rollingstock and alignments - the only complication at present is the speed through the metropolitan area.

Returning to the subject of the thread, electrifying standard 1500V DC to Wallan and reinstating the Somerton link with additional track pair from Craigieburn - the simplest and cheapest option here - would enable frequencies up to:
  • 3tph peak to Seymour/Shepp via Upfield, as assumed by the Regional Network Development Plan
  • 15tph peak to Wallan
  • An extra 7tph peak to Craigieburn
  • 6tph peak to Upfield


Giving us 24tph through the Northern Loop, 4tph direct North Melbourne-SCS-FSS using paths currently available for Sunbury services, and of course 3tph to the Country lines.

Obviously justifying 15tph to Wallan is stretchy at best and more of those could run to Craigieburn.

The point is, you can run a service with an excellent frequency to everywhere that needs it without getting frothy and building absurd and unnecessary electrified infrastructure.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

I think that one big impetus for 25 kV AC in future is the future decline of oil (diesel) and its replacement with renewable energy (Grid Electricity) for higher frequency regional lines like Geelong.  Hydrogen generation for fuel cell trains is still very much a developing tech.

Agree that the Somerton link achieves reasonable capacity improvements for little cost in the short-medium term, and has the added effect of improving reliability with double-tracking Gowrie and beyond.

It makes me wonder whether VicTrack might buy part or all of the old Ford Campbellfield site?
  penguin2233 Locomotive Driver

Location: Craigieburn, Melbourne VIC
It makes me wonder whether VicTrack might buy part or all of the old Ford Campbellfield site?
Carnot
That doesn't sound like a bad idea, however there is the issue of money and it being next to the Hume Highway. I still see some cars parked in at the facility car parks.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

It makes me wonder whether VicTrack might buy part or all of the old Ford Campbellfield site?
That doesn't sound like a bad idea, however there is the issue of money and it being next to the Hume Highway. I still see some cars parked in at the facility car parks.
penguin2233
Well the old Ford Geelong plant will be making wind turbines.  

The Western side of the Campbellfield site would make an ideal stabling yard IMO, and even parts of the factory building itself has potential for train maintenance if they run out of room at Newport/Dynon etc.  (And then there's the whole "What'll happen to Newport beyond 2020" speculation.  Oh look - SG track just nearby too....)
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

I believe it was Wallan - Sandringham and Craigieburn - Baxter, both of which were long term goals and would require reconfiguring of the City Loop portals to make happen. Infrastructure Vic I think recommended doing the City Loop reconfiguration immediately after Metro Tunnel as that would provide additional inner city capacity during construction, but things have grown so fast lately, that capacity could be realised faster than that. I think Metro II would happen first before changes to the City Loop.


Was never going to happen Sandringham to Wallan
Leaked plan shows Alamein or Glen Waverley running to Wallan
Sandringham will go to Laverton and Williamstown


@Heihachi_73 21km of overhead. Sunbury was 15 or so, why’s there an issue with that
The west and northern suburbs are growing and they need infrastructure to cope with the demand. Wallan is part of the equation
ptvcommuter

Stage 4 had Wallan to Sandringham (this version has the obvious inclusion of the Newport-Fishermen's bend extention that was missing from the original stage 4, all other things have been kept the same).
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

@John.Z

With a new development plan being undertaken this plan has effectively been dumped
Leaked plan shows Sandringham running to Williamstown

Plan has plenty of holes anyway

- Doncaster sadly won’t happen unless it’s part of Metro 3 rumour, bussway takes it away
- Rowville is either light rail can’t run via metro Tunnel
- Where is Clyde
- Grovedale Stopping at Wyndham Vale, Tarneit and other stations
- Airport running via Metro Tunnel which takes space away from Melton and Sunbury
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
The choice of AC v DC is worthy of consideration with rolling stock these days being able to run on dual voltages.

Option ?
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

From memory the Network Development Plan proposed the truncation of the current Craigieburn line to Roxburgh Park, with the Wallan (via Upfield) line taking up the last stretch between Roxburgh Park and Craigieburn before continuing. Is it worth acquiring a few properties on the eastern side of Craigieburn station, as well as shifting the road east to accommodate a further two platforms and an additional SG line? Terminating the current Craigieburn line at Craigieburn along with the Wallan line would have several benefits:
  1. Craigieburn has a large population
  2. Lack of need for out of service runs between Roxburgh Park and Craigieburn
  3. Do you really want Roxburgh Park to be emblazoned throughout Melbourne?
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

From memory the Network Development Plan proposed the truncation of the current Craigieburn line to Roxburgh Park, with the Wallan (via Upfield) line taking up the last stretch between Roxburgh Park and Craigieburn before continuing. Is it worth acquiring a few properties on the eastern side of Craigieburn station, as well as shifting the road east to accommodate a further two platforms and an additional SG line? Terminating the current Craigieburn line at Craigieburn along with the Wallan line would have several benefits:
  1. Craigieburn has a large population
  2. Lack of need for out of service runs between Roxburgh Park and Craigieburn
  3. Do you really want Roxburgh Park to be emblazoned throughout Melbourne?
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
The choice of AC v DC is worthy of consideration with rolling stock these days being able to run on dual voltages.

Option ?
freightgate
Would require new (or modified) rollingstock and would reduce flexibility. That being said, the Metro Tunnel and HCMT rollingstock are being built with provision for 3000VDC so that could be a remote possibility to increase the distances between substations on such a long extension.
But again, it would require new or modified rollingstock. Comengs wouldn't cut it, the Siemens & X'Traps could do it with a refurb (or have it baked in with the X'Trap MkIII design being cooked up at the moment).
  mirw Beginner

Was never going to happen Sandringham to Wallan
Leaked plan shows Alamein or Glen Waverley running to Wallan
Sandringham will go to Laverton and Williamstown
ptvcommuter
The most recent (leaked) plan, yes, but the 2012 Network Development Plan had:
Wallan to Sandringham via Upfield and Flinders Street;
Craigieburn to Frankston via Broadmeadows and City Loop;
Laverton/Williamstown to Glen Waverley/Alamein via Footscray and Flinders Street.

But yes, the boffins at PTV seem to have shifted their thinking to what you describe.
  penguin2233 Locomotive Driver

Location: Craigieburn, Melbourne VIC
From memory the Network Development Plan proposed the truncation of the current Craigieburn line to Roxburgh Park, with the Wallan (via Upfield) line taking up the last stretch between Roxburgh Park and Craigieburn before continuing. Is it worth acquiring a few properties on the eastern side of Craigieburn station, as well as shifting the road east to accommodate a further two platforms and an additional SG line? Terminating the current Craigieburn line at Craigieburn along with the Wallan line would have several benefits:
  1. Craigieburn has a large population
  2. Lack of need for out of service runs between Roxburgh Park and Craigieburn
  3. Do you really want Roxburgh Park to be emblazoned throughout Melbourne?
reubstar6
Seems possible due to the new carpark being built at Craigieburn station. The biggest issue is the bus network in Craigieburn but that's another story. Also I would dread the PA on the Comeng trains going "this train terminating at Roxburgh Park"
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
From memory the Network Development Plan proposed the truncation of the current Craigieburn line to Roxburgh Park, with the Wallan (via Upfield) line taking up the last stretch between Roxburgh Park and Craigieburn before continuing. Is it worth acquiring a few properties on the eastern side of Craigieburn station, as well as shifting the road east to accommodate a further two platforms and an additional SG line? Terminating the current Craigieburn line at Craigieburn along with the Wallan line would have several benefits:
  1. Craigieburn has a large population
  2. Lack of need for out of service runs between Roxburgh Park and Craigieburn
  3. Do you really want Roxburgh Park to be emblazoned throughout Melbourne?
reubstar6
The 2012/2013 Network Development Plan had Craigieburn staying as is and the Wallan (née Upfield) line running through Roxburgh Park and Craigieburn... in other words, for two stations in the north there'd be a choice of two lines for passengers.

In the leaked/updated network development plan (see Daniel Bowen's blog), in some of the later stages the maps show no stop on the Wallan line at Roxburgh Park.

In the first case, it appears (but not confirmed) to imply the original thought process was to send the duplicated and extended upfield pair into the existing Craigieburn pair.  In the second case, same again - implied but not confirmed by any supporting evidence - that the duplicated and extended upfield pair would be laid alongside the Craigieburn pair (or standard gauge track) and there would be 4 x tracks for metro trains between Roxburgh Park and Craigieburn.

The time difference between the two suggests more thought had been put into the changes and IMO the latest/leaked plan, whether the government chooses to follow it all, is wiser, i.e 2 track pairs to keep things separate and allow for many decades of capacity increases beyond.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Would there be real need for a second track pair given capacity exists on the current pair north of Somerton?
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Would there be real need for a second track pair given capacity exists on the current pair north of Somerton?
x31
Probably not an issue at present.  Perhaps one day just one additional line (3 BG lines in total between Somerton and Craigieburn, with the central track swapping directions depending on the time of day)?
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
The junction to the Upfield Line is only 400m south of the Down end of the platforms at Roxburg park, so it might not be possible for a dive under to come back to level in time for the tracks to safely join back to the Craigieburn line.

I'd say it's all just lines on a map though - the plan is more about big picture infrastructure than worrying about stopping patterns. Obviously choice would be better, but being served by either line with a better than 10 minute frequency of trains is still pretty good.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

Is it really worth creating an unnecessary bottleneck with the Upfield line? Might as well do it properly the first time and build the platforms required at Roxburgh Park and Craigieburn, rather than having the two lines meet once more. Eventually they will both be disconnected in the city, so you might as well separate them out in the suburbs.
  justarider Assistant Commissioner

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
Wallan is a huge growth area in the north of Melbourne and the area around it is one of the fastest growing in Australia. Electrification will cater for the growth near Mickleham, Cloverton and into Wallan. With commitments to Wyndham Vale, Melton and Baxter, the need for an extension to Wallan and also Clyde will be essential, the latter is needed now.

Wallan would have to be 21km of electrified tracks and you may also need to build two new electrified tracks, to seperate Seymour/Shepparton VLine and then the SG Albury Line.

Could have the Upfield Line extended via Somerton or extend the Cragieburn Line To Wallan
ptvcommuter
Back to the original premise.

Why on earth would you want to ride a shaky Xtrap 48km (hanging on the straps homeward), when you already have a reasonably comfortable Vlo. @ptv you ride Frankston don't you, Wallan is worse.

Sure, there is a case for increased frequency, but that is a different and far easier solution.

Sparks to Melton and Wyndham Vale are similar proposition, but they are just  close enough to Melbourne to make sense, with a possibility of Loop or Metro 1 instead of SCS.

And Seymour/Albury ??  
SG via Airport (including Wallan, Donnybrook) is the way to improve performance and remove congestion on the Metro tracks.
Shepparton can stay as is for now (BG 9 train per day - who cares !) until it joins the others on SG.

Sparks a looooonnnngggg way out is damn expensive for little benefit.

cheers
John
  penguin2233 Locomotive Driver

Location: Craigieburn, Melbourne VIC
North lines don't usually get X'Trap trains. I agree with @justarider about separating Seymour/Albury from Metro services.
  LeroyW Junior Train Controller

Location: Awaiting MM2
Why on earth would you want to ride a shaky Xtrap 48km (hanging on the straps homeward), when you already have a reasonably comfortable Vlo. @ptv you ride Frankston don't you, Wallan is worse.
justarider
Seymour rarely sees Velocity trains, most of them are sprinters or the good old (not really, just old) N sets, sometimes with H class carriages on them for good measure.  I'd take a metro train built this century over those any day.

Flinders St to Craigieburn via the loop is 47mins (would be much the same via Upfield).  VLine is timetabled from Craigieburn to Wallan in 14mins off peak with one stop. Given the metro trains can accelerate much faster this would probably be about the same, but lets call it 15 to be fair.

So Flinders St to Wallan via the loop is 62mins, just over an hour. That's pretty much the same as Lilydale and Mernda for comparison (gee, shows how painfully slow the trip to Mernda is given the distance - Wallan is much further out!).

Not too big an issue after all?

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