Stalin, Mao & Marx verses everyone else

 
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
I am equally astound that both you and Ground Relay are trying to suggest that these atrocities committed in the name of a belief system are somehow in different class to the carnage the 3rd Reich wrought.
CraigW
You don't get it! Understanding why things happened doesn't mean you condone it.

Lenin, Stalin and Mao were ruthless but historically that's not unusually. However they weren't in the same league as Hitler, Himmler etc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Axis_personnel_indicted_for_war_crimes.
This was pure ‘evil’ on an industrial scale and it was extremely profitable for some.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labour_under_German_rule_during_World_War_II

Political revenge, eliminating opponents, suppressing populations didn’t start with Lenin. Russia under the Tsar had an extremely efficient secret police.

The communist revolution was a response. How it was implemented and continued is where the value judgement comes in.  
This all comes back to Authoritarianism. Today there seems to be more people who would gladly ditch democracy for the apparent comfort and certainty it brings. Goebbels would be pleased.

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  fzr560 Chief Train Controller

Not in the same league?? The body count would suggest otherwise.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Not in the same league?? The body count would suggest otherwise.
fzr560
All 3 are in the same league (communism,Capitalism, and fascism). The body count and bia would suggest otherwise too. Capitalism has done as many atrocities as the 'other' 2, the body count would really say otherwise.
Was the holocaust done with the Intention to eradicate the Jewden? Yes it was. Was the Holodomor intentionally done to wipe Ukraine from the map? Nope.
  CraigW Assistant Commissioner

I am equally astound that both you and Ground Relay are trying to suggest that these atrocities committed in the name of a belief system are somehow in different class to the carnage the 3rd Reich wrought.
You don't get it! Understanding why things happened doesn't mean you condone it.

Lenin, Stalin and Mao were ruthless but historically that's not unusually. However they weren't in the same league as Hitler, Himmler etc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Axis_personnel_indicted_for_war_crimes.
This was pure ‘evil’ on an industrial scale and it was extremely profitable for some.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labour_under_German_rule_during_World_War_II

Political revenge, eliminating opponents, suppressing populations didn’t start with Lenin. Russia under the Tsar had an extremely efficient secret police.

The communist revolution was a response. How it was implemented and continued is where the value judgement comes in.  
This all comes back to Authoritarianism. Today there seems to be more people who would gladly ditch democracy for the apparent comfort and certainty it brings. Goebbels would be pleased.
Groundrelay
I do get what you say, yet you seem to have no problems playing the reverse game at all do you?

Lenin, Stalin and Mao ruthless?

Lets leave Lenin out of it because he had the decency to die early on. Stalin via the Ukrainian Famine is estimated to have killed up to 7 Million and during the great purge in the 1930s is thought to have killed a Million or so. Mao, during his great leap forward is thought to have killed somewhere in excess of 20 million.  Absolutely right, they really are not in the same league as Hitler.

Dan, the Western allies had agreed on a demarcation line with the Russians about where they would advance too. It was only in the final stages of the war that they started to seriously doubt the Russians and after the war they realised the Russians had no intention of allowing any of the eastern bloc countries to have a democratic system of government.

The communist revolution(s) were indeed a response as was the rise of Nazism. Botha are failed and ghastly blots on humanity.

Yes, there is an urge in some quarters to limit free speech and ditch democracy. That is why groups like Antifa should be stopped in their tracks.

Craig W
  CraigW Assistant Commissioner

Not in the same league?? The body count would suggest otherwise.
All 3 are in the same league (communism,Capitalism, and fascism). The body count and bia would suggest otherwise too. Capitalism has done as many atrocities as the 'other' 2, the body count would really say otherwise.
Was the holocaust done with the Intention to eradicate the Jewden? Yes it was. Was the Holodomor intentionally done to wipe Ukraine from the map? Nope.
Dangersdan707
Not sure how you get the idea that the Holocaust was the result of capitalism. It was done on political and racial grounds, capitalism in itself had nothing to with it.

Germany was not capitalist and was an authoritarian state just as the USSr was an authoritarian state. Absolutely right the famine ws not done to wipe the Ukraine off the map. It just happened to kill 7 million or so people. Oops.

There you go trying to down play it again.

Craig W
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Lenin, Stalin and Mao were ruthless but historically that's not unusually. However they weren't in the same league as Hitler, Himmler etc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Axis_personnel_indicted_for_war_crimes
Groundrelay
Citing a list of war crimes prosecutions is useless for backing up the point you are trying to make, because it is the winners who determine the rules after the war is over.

One of the interesting examples of this is Grand Admiral Karl Dönitz, who was charged at Nuremberg with ordering unrestricted submarine warfare. His defence to this charge was to present comprehensive prosecution cases against Sir Winston Churchill (First Lord of the Admiralty at the time of the offences described in 1940) and Fleet Admiral Chester Nimitz (wartime commander of the US Pacific Fleet) on the same charge.

Rather than act on this evidence and prosecute Churchill and Nimitz, the Allies decided that unrestricted submarine warfare wasn't such a big deal after all and dropped the charge against Dönitz.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Lenin, Stalin and Mao were ruthless but historically that's not unusually. However they weren't in the same league as Hitler, Himmler etc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Axis_personnel_indicted_for_war_crimes
Citing a list of war crimes prosecutions is useless for backing up the point you are trying to make, because it is the winners who determine the rules after the war is over.

One of the interesting examples of this is Grand Admiral Karl Dönitz, who was charged at Nuremberg with ordering unrestricted submarine warfare. His defence to this charge was to present comprehensive prosecution cases against Sir Winston Churchill (First Lord of the Admiralty at the time of the offences described in 1940) and Fleet Admiral Chester Nimitz (wartime commander of the US Pacific Fleet) on the same charge.

Rather than act on this evidence and prosecute Churchill and Nimitz, the Allies decided that unrestricted submarine warfare wasn't such a big deal after all and dropped the charge against Dönitz.
justapassenger
If anyone should have gone on trial it was "Bomber" Harris.
  CraigW Assistant Commissioner

If anyone should have gone on trial it was "Bomber" Harris.
don_dunstan

It may have been victors justice, but something had to be done to punish those who inflicted the rise  of Nazism, the Holocaust and WW2 on the world.

Bomber Harris was giving the Germans a taste of what they did in 1940 to the UK  (and Rotterdam)



Craig W
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

If anyone should have gone on trial it was "Bomber" Harris.
don_dunstan
It is likely that the lack of any mention of the strategic bombing campaigns in the charges against Hermann Göring was out of recognition that the Allies had done far worse.

I have a lot of respect for the way the prosecutors at Nuremberg and Tokyo strived to maintain their integrity despite being assigned to execute a political objective.

It will never be known whether the inclusion of the submarine warfare charge against Dönitz was an accidental oversight, or whether the prosecutors did foresee his defence and made a deliberate decision to include it as a protest against the political nature of the trials.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Not sure how you get the idea that the Holocaust was the result of capitalism. It was done on political and racial grounds, capitalism in itself had nothing to with it.
CraigW
As I said it was done out of desire by the nazi's to eradicate the jews purposefully while something like the holodomer was done on accident but alas decades of propaganda and indoctrination have made people view it as a genocide not a famine. I don't Understand how you think that I think the holocaust was a result of capitalism. I you interpreted it that way I miscommunicated and a apologise. Not smeg it was done on racial and political grounds.

Germany was not capitalist and was an authoritarian state just as the USSr was an authoritarian state.
CraigW
But the nazi's were supported prominent industrialists and firms such as IG fabrim, Mauser, bayer. The Nazi's had a capitalist economy though some members did advocate for marxist economics early on they were killed during the night of long knives. May I ask are you going to use the logic 'Nazi means national socialist so nazis are socialists'? There have been many authoritarian capitalist states look at Pinochet's Chile, Varges's Brazil, Burma and many other that where not fascists

Absolutely right the famine ws not done to wipe the Ukraine off the map. It just happened to kill 7 million or so people. Oops
CraigW
Just like the famines in The British empire it's just we turn a blind eye to them and blame them on other factors not the system. Interestingly the last Famine in Russia was in 1947, and there have been none since. Perhaps it's something to do with wartime damage and the lack of a developed industry? BTW was this comment sarcastic because I honestly fail to see if it is please tell me if it is so.
  CraigW Assistant Commissioner

If anyone should have gone on trial it was "Bomber" Harris.
It is likely that the lack of any mention of the strategic bombing campaigns in the charges against Hermann Göring was out of recognition that the Allies had done far worse.

I have a lot of respect for the way the prosecutors at Nuremberg and Tokyo strived to maintain their integrity despite being assigned to execute a political objective.

It will never be known whether the inclusion of the submarine warfare charge against Dönitz was an accidental oversight, or whether the prosecutors did foresee his defence and made a deliberate decision to include it as a protest against the political nature of the trials.
justapassenger
Goering was commander of the Luftwaffe, but his role as (essentially) the senior surviving Nazi meant that this was going to be over shadowed. The vast majority of those on trial did not display a great deal of contrition for what they had done. Speer displayed contrition and escaped the gallows. Had their been more appreciation at the time of the role he played with forced labour he would likely have gone to the gallows too.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
If anyone should have gone on trial it was "Bomber" Harris.

It may have been victors justice, but something had to be done to punish those who inflicted the rise  of Nazism, the Holocaust and WW2 on the world.

Bomber Harris was giving the Germans a taste of what they did in 1940 to the UK  (and Rotterdam)



Craig W
CraigW
No smeg but a lot more extreme. 60,000 poms by the blitz while around 350,000 died during the raids over Germany.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Lenin, Stalin and Mao ruthless?
CraigW
Defiantly Stalin and Mao but both sides were doing 'terrors' during the Russian civil war.

Lets leave Lenin out of it because he had the decency to die early on. Stalin via the Ukrainian Famine is estimated to have killed up to 7 Million and during the great purge in the 1930s is thought to have killed a Million or so. Mao, during his great leap forward is thought to have killed somewhere in excess of 20 million. Absolutely right, they really are not in the same league as Hitler.
Craig
Depends on your views and perspectives. Some claim Stalin killed more that 40 million but the population just kept on growing. Economic mismanagement is not in the same league. Ya know what, let's classify all the famines in the British empire as the same as the holocaust. Largely smeg economic management and the lack of industrial agriculture.

Dan, the Western allies had agreed on a demarcation line with the Russians about where they would advance too. It was only in the final stages of the war that they started to seriously doubt the Russians and after the war they realised the Russians had no intention of allowing any of the eastern bloc countries to have a democratic system of government.
CraigW
Look up operation unthinkable, I'll interest you. That was a war plan devised by Britain to invade the USSR after Germany and Japan had been defeated.
Remember the Soviets lost around 20-40 million soldiers and civilian due to various causes in the war. Not to mention there industrial and agricultural heartland was decimated. I have studied Potsdam and the associated conferences are you are correct on that. The big 3 shared the opinion that Germany should divided after the war and Churchill defended his deal with Stalin in parliament.

The communist revolution(s) were indeed a response as was the rise of Nazism. Botha are failed and ghastly blots on humanity.
Craig
Not necessarily the one in the America's were largly in response to America's Monroe doctrine and control of the American's along with the brinkmanship of the cold wars. I would say Communism was a response to capitalism, Just many communist groups came out empowered after the second world war such as in France, Albania (yeah I know about hoaxa0, Italy and Yugoslavia
Yes, there is an urge in some quarters to limit free speech and ditch democracy. That is why groups like Antifa should be stopped in their tracks.
CraigW
Disagree, Free speech repression should only be limited with the anti-Vaxination movement look at them there crazy! we should have a right to critique and debate one another as we do know. And racial discrimination (the Real kind not OMG there's no blacks in this film) should be banned and disapproved by the public.


  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

That post formatting should be classed as a crime against humanity.

Learn to use the preview button!
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
That post formatting should be classed as a crime against humanity.

Learn to use the preview button!
justapassenger
Sorry, It was a mistake and will be fixed. Please do not send me to the Standard gauge gulag supreme emperor god king overlord Justappassenger.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
Germany was not capitalist and was an authoritarian state just as the USSr was an authoritarian state. Absolutely right the famine ws not done to wipe the Ukraine off the map. It just happened to kill 7 million or so people. Oops.

There you go trying to down play it again.

Craig W
CraigW
I think you better study up on your 'isms. You don't need democracy to turn a profit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany

Is it the inability to see beyond "reds under the bed" which gives you this one dimensional take on communism whilst downplaying how an advanced, western democratic country went feral?

Communist Revolutions in Russia and China and the Nazi attainment of power in Germany were not the same. Economically, socially, politically they were poles apart. The huge underclass living in abject poverty in Russia and China gave cause for a revolution and bloody revenge at all levels.

That wasn’t the same situation in Germany. There it was driven by pure evil. Hitler and the upper echelon of the Nazi Party were committed to the elimination of Jews and other groups and subjugation of Non-Aryan races. They implemented this policy immediately. It was methodically planned, systematic, efficient process specifically supported by their ideology. That is why they aren’t in the same league when it comes to evilness. And capitalists did very well!

Yes it didn’t take long for the Communist revolutions to go off the rails as the cult of personality and authoritarianism took hold. However it did force the sort of revolutionary change necessary at the time.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville

Yes, there is an urge in some quarters to limit free speech and ditch democracy. That is why groups like Antifa should be stopped in their tracks.

Craig W
CraigW

Because Aryan Nation believe in free speech and democracy Laughing
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

US presidential Bernie Sanders praising glorious nation of USSR in 1988, LOL:
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
US presidential Bernie Sanders praising glorious nation of USSR in 1988, LOL:
Carnot
When he was a red, now he's a Social democrat. I find it interesting how people paint him as Communist. It's as legitimate as the left Calling Trump a fascist.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Cuba Has Voted on a new constitution, Seems a Titoist in nature if you ask me but reaffirms its marxist stance, though now allow's small business to operate. Tito's economic legacy it seems lives on.

The new Constitution declares the socialist system "irrevocable" and states the state's central goal of "the construction of socialism and advance towards a communist society
Reuters



https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cuba-constitution-explainer/explainer-what-is-old-and-new-in-cubas-proposed-constitution-idUSKCN1QA273

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/02/cubans-approve-constitution-vote-190226224600240.html
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Cuba Has Voted on a new constitution, Seems a Titoist in nature if you ask me but reaffirms its marxist stance, though now allow's small business to operate. Tito's economic legacy it seems lives on.

The new Constitution declares the socialist system "irrevocable" and states the state's central goal of "the construction of socialism and advance towards a communist society



https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cuba-constitution-explainer/explainer-what-is-old-and-new-in-cubas-proposed-constitution-idUSKCN1QA273

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/02/cubans-approve-constitution-vote-190226224600240.html
Dangersdan707
What now?  Cuba exporting its own version of the Yugo to the You Hess of Hay?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN4UhS8cFTk
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Cuba Has Voted on a new constitution, Seems a Titoist in nature if you ask me but reaffirms its marxist stance, though now allow's small business to operate. Tito's economic legacy it seems lives on.

The new Constitution declares the socialist system "irrevocable" and states the state's central goal of "the construction of socialism and advance towards a communist society



https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cuba-constitution-explainer/explainer-what-is-old-and-new-in-cubas-proposed-constitution-idUSKCN1QA273

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/02/cubans-approve-constitution-vote-190226224600240.html
What now?  Cuba exporting its own version of the Yugo to the You Hess of Hay?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN4UhS8cFTk
Carnot
Production ended in late 2008:). I was referring to the economic policies of the new constitution, they are similar to Tito's.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Love this Meme, So true. I wish I did not know what film this was parodying, but anyway.

  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Well Dan young fella,  I would of thought you would have been a great fan of Uncle Joe, the man of the century, coz he had broad gauge.Razz
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
History has shown that every system of governing has a use by date. How many centuries did it take for us to achieve our current democracy and judicial system. I suspect it too will be eroded, manipulated and corrupted to benefit the few over the many. Look no further than the people backing Pell.

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Subscribers: CraigW, Dangersdan707, theanimal

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