Melbourne Airport Rail Link

 
  chomper Locomotive Driver

his Transurban buddies would have turned on him and sued the pants off the state for contravening the non-compete clause.

The PTUA claims it was a myth such a clause ever existed but Andrews’ recent actions in bundling the removal of similar terms with the West Gate Tunnel funding agreement suggest that was just more PTUA bulldust.
potatoinmymouth
Nail, head etc etc.

The clause was primarily for competing roads (ie Mt. Alexander Rd), but the application was broad enough to have heavy rail be considered competition.

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  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Just wait, i don’t see it running through the Metro Tunnel and they’ve also committed to dealing with Melton and WV sparking as well as Geelong and Ballarat High Speed Rail

I think we will see a new tunnel between Sunshine and City that the Airport and other services will use as well as the alignment to Airport. It may even include a further extension to Bendigo via Clarkefield or Seymour via Wallan. We will see
ptvcommuter
Neither do I. So why would Dan say it at all? Not a man normally prone to whimsy (SRL aside), the comments attributed to him yesterday just don't make sense.

BG
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Since this Airport Rail line is obviously going to cost so much money and open like something like 2030, isn't it a better idea instead of the Sunshine - City Tunnel, that we build the western half of the Metro 2 tunnel, that would make much more sense and that would mean better connections and more capacity bang for buck.

Metro 2 tunnel western stage 1 and Airport link built in one go. Sounds like a much better deal, though the route may be slightly longer.

So the Albion route to Airport will be built as planned from Sunshine - Airport.

Then it would continue on new tracks between Sunshine - Newport.

Then the Werribee line and Airport line goes underground to Fishermans Bend like the Metro 2 route.


Then it would connect at Southern Cross.

Melton/Wydnham corridors could share the Metro Tunnel route. So it would be the Cranbourne/Pakenham - Sunbury/Melton/Wydnham. With High capacity signalling, there would be enough room to add those services through.

Can we please get to this solution instead?

Can we discuss this idea? Sounds like we can get the Metro Tunnel 2 with the Airport link done in conjuction instead.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Melton/Wydnham corridors could share the Metro Tunnel route. So it would be the Cranbourne/Pakenham - Sunbury/Melton/Wydnham. With High capacity signalling, there would be enough room to add those services through.

Can we please get to this solution instead?

Can we discuss this idea? Sounds like we can get the Metro Tunnel 2 with the Airport link done in conjuction instead.
True Believers
Interesting concept, how much distance and therefore time would it add?

And how would it fit with VicGov's stated idea of using MARL to upgrade / untangle V/Line services Geelong / Ballarat / Bendigo? I understand that removing Melton and Wyndham services from RRL would add some capacity but this plan would be dependent on quadding Wyndham > Sunshine otherwise the benefits would only be realized West Footscray > SC or possibly Sunshine > Southern Cross if Wyndam / Melton crossed over onto the Sunbury line at Sunshine.

Still leaves Bendigo, Ballarat and Geelong V Line via RRL, how many paths would that free up on existing RRL?

BG
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

""
Interesting concept, how much distance and therefore time would it add?

And how would it fit with VicGov's stated idea of using MARL to upgrade / untangle V/Line services Geelong / Ballarat / Bendigo? I understand that removing Melton and Wyndham services from RRL would add some capacity but this plan would be dependent on quadding Wyndham > Sunshine otherwise the benefits would only be realized West Footscray > SC or possibly Sunshine > Southern Cross if Wyndam / Melton crossed over onto the Sunbury line at Sunshine.

Still leaves Bendigo, Ballarat and Geelong V Line via RRL, how many paths would that free up on existing RRL?

BG
BrentonGolding
You could still quad the Melton and Wyndham corridors in this variation of the plan. So that the regional services travel via the express tracks and RRL. While the new Wyndham/Melton services can stop all stations and then converge onto the Sunbury line via the Metro tunnel.

Yes there are downsides to the plan which means additional time or interchange, but overall is more positive as it is very efficient to bundle the projects together and add the new connections onto the network.

The Downsides (additional waiting times/length of the route):

If you wanted direct access via the Metro tunnel, you could interchange at Sunshine Hub which all Metro systems require people to interchange. This would only add 10 minutes to the journey.

If you wanted to get the airport through Southern Cross, it may add 10 minutes to your journey going through the diversion via Metro 2. Unfortunately you can't take a V-line to/from Sunshine into SC.

The Positives:

Fisherman's Bend can have access to PT earlier.

A new Newport/Sunshine connection would be very useful to have. (especially since the Freight corridor exists, the rail can be built relatively cheap). More connections is good (having more of a grid rail network).

You don't need to build 2 seperate tunnels, saving lots of money. Co-ordinates well with the PTV plan.

Leaves provision to extend the tunnel to Clifton Hill.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

On here people get upset by the thought of catching a “true” suburban train to the airport, and yet elsewhere the reaction to airport trains through the tunnel has been largely positive. Yes, public sentiment does not always translate to ridership etc but what seems like a good idea on Railpage isn’t always what the rest of the world thinks!

Anyway, TB’s idea of running airport trains via Newport is a fascinating one but really very little chance of actually happening given what’s already been planned.

As for running WV and Melton into the tunnel that just seems like a bad idea. Remember the theoretical capacity of a moving block line is 30tph but the practical capacity is 24tph to allow for minor delays. Then consider that every junction on a line reduces its effective capacity because you need to allow for merging delays even with flying junctions. Also, to my knowledge the current moving block plans are leaving fixed block in place for non-suburban service.

So you’d have fixed block Bendigo services merging with moving block Sunbury services at Sunbury and Sunshine, WV and Melton services merging at Deer Park junction, and then WV/Melton services merging with Sunbury services at Sunshine. I reckon you can forget about running more than about 20tph reliably on a line like that. Which is just not enough given the Sunbury is already under serious stress at peak 12tph.
  LeroyW Locomotive Driver

Location: Awaiting MM2
There you go railpagers. I drew a map of the route.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Ifz6QeFRFkkOt75xTvAeNgrMqG4ingW0&usp=sharing
True Believers
Well it's interesting I'll give you that. Those bends at Newport look pretty tight Laughing

Two thoughts:
- Given it will be quicker to interchange to MM1 at Sunshine for all passengers except those for Newport Group and SCS directly, will we have near empty trains trundling along your slick new tunnel all the way from Sunshine to the city?
- Having to interleave airport trains onto MM2 will reduce capacity available for Werribee, leading to another bottleneck that will have to be solved down the track. I think this is why they favour a new tunnel AND MM2 at a later date (yes it's more tunnels, but it's more capacity into the city which is really the problem)
  John E Station Master

On here people get upset by the thought of catching a “true” suburban train to the airport, and yet elsewhere the reaction to airport trains through the tunnel has been largely positive. Yes, public sentiment does not always translate to ridership etc but what seems like a good idea on Railpage isn’t always what the rest of the world thinks!

Anyway, TB’s idea of running airport trains via Newport is a fascinating one but really very little chance of actually happening given what’s already been planned.

As for running WV and Melton into the tunnel that just seems like a bad idea. Remember the theoretical capacity of a moving block line is 30tph but the practical capacity is 24tph to allow for minor delays. Then consider that every junction on a line reduces its effective capacity because you need to allow for merging delays even with flying junctions. Also, to my knowledge the current moving block plans are leaving fixed block in place for non-suburban service.

So you’d have fixed block Bendigo services merging with moving block Sunbury services at Sunbury and Sunshine, WV and Melton services merging at Deer Park junction, and then WV/Melton services merging with Sunbury services at Sunshine. I reckon you can forget about running more than about 20tph reliably on a line like that. Which is just not enough given the Sunbury is already under serious stress at peak 12tph.
potatoinmymouth
Well said PIMM. On a seperate note there are more key interchange stations via Metro Tunnel instead of directly to Southern Cross. The improved connection time will likely offset the additional few couple of  minutes the train will take travelling from Footscray to Sunshine, especially for passengers from the East and South East.

When the journey time is half an hour or less, most passengers won't mind taking a normal suburban train.
If the Airport is closer to an hour away from the city, then yes there should be better Rolling Stock and not on a suburban line. For example a few years ago i caught a regular surbaban train from Tokyo Haneda to the city (with Heavy Luggage) and managed fine. The return flight was through Narita airport, which is close to an hour away and this was on dedicated airport train.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Sorry if I have missed this  but reading around the sites what stations will be built for the link and what existing stations would be used other than Sunshine?
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Sorry if I have missed this  but reading around the sites what stations will be built for the link and what existing stations would be used other than Sunshine?
bevans
If we're just talking about the initial airport link - probably just Footscray as well???
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Anyway, TB’s idea of running airport trains via Newport is a fascinating one but really very little chance of actually happening given what’s already been planned.

As for running WV and Melton into the tunnel that just seems like a bad idea. Remember the theoretical capacity of a moving block line is 30tph but the practical capacity is 24tph to allow for minor delays. Then consider that every junction on a line reduces its effective capacity because you need to allow for merging delays even with flying junctions. Also, to my knowledge the current moving block plans are leaving fixed block in place for non-suburban service.

So you’d have fixed block Bendigo services merging with moving block Sunbury services at Sunbury and Sunshine, WV and Melton services merging at Deer Park junction, and then WV/Melton services merging with Sunbury services at Sunshine. I reckon you can forget about running more than about 20tph reliably on a line like that. Which is just not enough given the Sunbury is already under serious stress at peak 12tph.
potatoinmymouth
"Given what’s already been planned", to be fair the route towards the city end is still under investigation. But I agree that they were thinking of the new rail tunnel through Footscray.

I guess the issue which you've note is capacity constraints by allowing the new electric lines converge together. Which is probably why an extra tunnel was announced.

So would it be cheaper building 2 seperate tunnels (2 tracks each)? Or maybe build one 4-track tunnel along the Metro 2 tunnel route?

But maybe that's a little overkill, as two seperate tunnels would probably be cheaper, as one tunnel goes under the Yarra and the other doesn't.

Someone noted the trains would be empty, but if the plans suggest creating Fisherman's Bend as an extended CBD, then perhaps there would be more demand in that area, which is currently lacking in services.

With a 2030+ date, you'd think you've built like another cross-city tunnel in that time. I'd really like if the Metro 2 tunnel project was accelarated, started sooner than later. Anyways a Newport-Sunshine orbital route would be nice to have and I'd think somehow instead build the 4 track tunnel via Metro 2, you could have the Werribee line use 1 tunnel, and Melton/Wydnham use the second tunnel. And have the Airport line use the Melbourne Metro Tunnel with Sunbury.

It's just something to keep note of.
  reubstar6 Train Controller

I like the idea of getting Metro 2 built, with the airport link being the excuse. However, the issue of capacity between Sunshine and Footscray hasn't really been addressed. I still think an extra two tracks need to be fitted through there somehow.
  John E Station Master

True Believer - you've put forward some very good proposals on RP but sorry i don't think this is a good plan.

Mixing airport trains with a future Metro 2 will be fraught with danger. Most of the train paths will already be taken up by trains from Werribee (potentially Wyndam Vale ext) and hopefully a future East Werribee/Point Cook South branch line.

Furthermore the Sunshine to Newport freight corridor between Sunshine and the Westgate Freeway might be used by a future Suburban Rail Loop that heads towards Laverton.

What you're proposing would deliver 2 key projects faster, however each project will not go close to reaching their full potential.
  Engineeringlogic Station Staff

Even factoring in the cost of doing business with unions in Victoria, I don’t think anyone can see how it could cost 8bn.  Unless it is extended to Sunbury at one end and south east of the city somewhere (Anzac?) from day one.  Then maybe the cost could be understandable.   Pity we will never get a full cost breakdown.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
I am intrigued. This thread is now out to 25 pages in length and, as far as I can tell, we are very little, if any, wiser about the actual route/design etc of the Airport Rail Line than we were when the the thread started nearly a year ago.
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
Just wait, i don’t see it running through the Metro Tunnel and they’ve also committed to dealing with Melton and WV sparking as well as Geelong and Ballarat High Speed Rail

I think we will see a new tunnel between Sunshine and City that the Airport and other services will use as well as the alignment to Airport. It may even include a further extension to Bendigo via Clarkefield or Seymour via Wallan. We will see
-ptvcommuter
Neither do I. So why would Dan say it at all? Not a man normally prone to whimsy (SRL aside), the comments attributed to him yesterday just don't make sense.

BG
BrentonGolding
indeed BG, it is not a statement of whimsy, and it does make sense.

In a couple of sentences, Dan the Man has locked in a big part of the plan, despite PTV failure to see the bleeding obvious, has revealed what has been agreed. see what is actually said in the joint agreement signed

I am intrigued. This thread is now out to 25 pages in length and, as far as I can tell, we are very little, if any, wiser about the actual route/design etc of the Airport Rail Line than we were when the the thread started nearly a year ago.
Valvegear
On the contrary, actual design is:
gauge is BG
rolling stock is HCMT
route is join to the Sunbury/Dandenong line through MM1

It is now certain that
WDV/Melton sparks will NOT go via MM1, and will need a new set of tracks into the city.
Bendigo via the Airport is a dead duck.
Sunbury is NOT destined to have exclusive use of a 30tph pathway.

And @True_believer as for MM2 - it's a priority pick which happens first between Melton/WDV sparks or MM2.
My bet is on Melton/WDV, and never the 2 projects will met.

cheers
John
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
I am intrigued. This thread is now out to 25 pages in length and, as far as I can tell, we are very little, if any, wiser about the actual route/design etc of the Airport Rail Line than we were when the the thread started nearly a year ago.
Valvegear

That's because the route/design hasn't been completed yet...

M.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
That's because the route/design hasn't been completed yet...
"The Vinelander"
My point exactly. Despite 25 pages of writing, we are still in the dark.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Patience is a virtue. Smile

M.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Scrap that previous idea.

Actually I forgot I had an old proposal that I put into one of my older youtube videos and I think this is the optimal proposal.
I made the video back in March 2018, I'm surprised I basically showed the Western Rail Plan before Andrews announced it officially.

-> Extend electrification from Werribee to Geelong. Metro 2 tunnel would be built for those extended Geelong services direct to CBD.
-> Create new electric lines to Melton and Wydnham Vale and these travel through the new tunnels proposed by the western rail plan.
-> Quad the Melton corridor to allow Ballarat express.
-> Airport + Sunbury travels via Metro tunnel.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd2ABfcn7a4

4:23 - 5:14

By the way the business case is due in 2020. So no new information until that happens.
  trainbrain Deputy Commissioner

It is really quite simlpe, just turn right at Sunshine and straight to the Airport,  run through trains from the East side of Melbourne similar to the Gold coast Line. EZY. Less smeg.
  reubstar6 Train Controller

Let's assume it's going to cost upwards of $10 billion. They should work on the actual airport branch as soon as possible. That's probably a factor as to why sight investigations are there at the moment. Once that work is complete, a line to the airport could be open by say 2026, allowing the trains to run straight through the Metro tunnel, until the Sunshine-Southern Cross tunnel is complete. Also, if there is to be an extension to Clarkefield, which would be sensible, that could also be built while the tunnel is nearing completion.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Don’t see Airport running through Metro Tunnel. We will wait and see but there’s also the WV and Melton Sparks as well as the Ballarat and Geelong High Speed Trains which was mentioned in other announcements alongside the Airport Project
  res1psaloqu1tur Station Staff

Tudge is the only one that's said anything about it running via MM1. The Hun (here: https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/scott-morrison-daniel-andrews-give-melbourne-airport-rail-link-green-light/news-story/79a5c8ac7331410e29726ccff441aca3?login=1) says it will 'link to the Metro Tunnel' but there's no source for that.

I'm hoping they don't run it via MM1. MARL will need to be high (10 minute?) frequency to compete with options like Skybus and private transport, which takes capacity away from the Sunbury and Cranbourne/Pakenham lines.

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