Melbourne-Sydney fast train a top Labor priority

 

News article: Melbourne-Sydney fast train a top Labor priority

A fast train linking Melbourne and Sydney in less than three hours will be among the top infrastructure priorities of a Shorten Government.

  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich
Also right now as of 9:48 pm on the 12/3/2019 90% of the electricity in NSW is being generated by coal. the other 10% is gas, hydro and wind. wind is producing only 225 MW

Does that 60MW count for the entire 800km journey of a single journey RTT?

https://www.energymatters.com.au/energy-efficiency/australian-electricity-statistics/
6MW is the load draw running at assumed 300km/h, to run at 350km/h it would be easily be another 1MW as wind resistance drag is basically exponential. Allowing for stops and breaking regen lets assume 3h trip at 6MW current draw, so each service pulls 18MW.

So assume 16 return services a day, you will need 16 to be a serious contender against air and not dissimilar to some other OS corridors. 16 x 2 x 18 = 576MWh in a day, basically what Tomago Aluminium Smelter uses in 40min.  

NSW last 12mths electrical mix (OpenNEM)

Coal - 77%
Solar - 4.5%
Wind - 4.6%
Hydro - 3.3%
CCGT - 1.2%
OCGT - 0.7%

Now the critical part, imported power 8.2% of which most comes from Qld and hence obviously coal, the bulk of the rest is Vic's wet mud labelled as coal. Roughly 225,000 MWh every day in total load and HSR will add 0.25% more load.

(yes all the who ha about RE and wholesale power prices going up 2.5 x in 10 years has been driven by just 9% of the total supply, just think what will happen with 90% supply)

So anyone thinking the HSR will be built to run on only RE is dreaming, NSW is currently pulling around 85% of its current energy from burning coal alone. So until the this coal energy is replaced something more green, any HSR will just be adding to the existing load, which is 85%, yes building more wind or solar for HSR will help dilute the coal, but the coal is still there.

576MWh at 8kWh per 1kg of coal = 72t of coal per day

A 737 burns 40-50L/min
So 50 flights a day x 1h of fuel burning x return = ~270,000L of Jet A1 per day or 250t/day.


However as I said before, if we assume a all stopper Sydney Spark or Melbourne Spark uses 0.5MW every hour due to stop / start nature of service, regen etc and moves 1000 people per 1hr long service. You could run 1100 extra 1h long services every day. Thats 1,100,000 commuters every work day x 250 work days a year =  275,000,000 extra commuters off the road or bus each year. Likely more as most Sydney and Mel commuter services at than 1h from start to city, so say even 300m users, almost as much as Sydney Trains does now. So service 5mpa of so plane users on one corridor or 300mpa commuters across the country?
RTT_Rules
Sigh Sad. The original statement was: "We don't have enough green power to make a vhst carbon neutral"

Anyone (large industrial users) can contract across the grid to buy power from whomever they wish including RE, provided its available. As shown before there is more than enough available. If a VHST operator wanted to they could do so and ONE HYDRO PLANT AT PART LOAD, could do it.

If they wanted to. Of course they could just buy from the general mix as well or 100% coal. If they wanted to.

As shown above on an energy basis using your value as a starting point a VHST will use about 1.3% of total available renewables


Cheers

Sponsored advertisement

  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Sigh Sad. The original statement was: "We don't have enough green power to make a vhst carbon neutral"

Anyone (large industrial users) can contract across the grid to buy power from whomever they wish including RE, provided its available. As shown before there is more than enough available. If a VHST operator wanted to they could do so and ONE HYDRO PLANT AT PART LOAD, could do it.

If they wanted to. Of course they could just buy from the general mix as well or 100% coal. If they wanted to.

As shown above on an energy basis using your value as a starting point a VHST will use about 1.3% of total available renewables


Cheers
arctic
sigh back at you:roll:

I said 567 MWh each day for all 16 return services S-M is consumed by HSR, however the daily output of NSW RE Wind and Solar is around 777 MWh, not much left for other operations.

Sure more RE could be built just to run the train, for this you need 2100MW of installed capacity of Solar OR 1700MW of wind or combination of the two. No major hydro has been built in NSW for nearly 40 years and used to full capacity so this is all pre-sold, however they could buy from Snowy 2.0 or other pumped hydro/hydro product.
  doridori Chief Commissioner

The first high speed line should be between Newcastle and Woolongong.

The first thing would be to spell Woollongong correctly... Cool

M.
The Vinelander
First signs of cost-cutting ?

On a serious note, the only way this can be viable, is if done with cutting edge revolutionary technology not seen anywhere else in the world, so people will actually travel here to experience it and bring their tourist dollars in order to subsidise the entire project.
When I state cutting edge, I'm talking a thousand+ km/h technology, not the current HST 3-600km/h region.
If this is not chosen, then realignment and improvement of current lines, so they at least meet International Union of Railways HSR definition, Category 2, preferably Category 1, including vastly improved loops for track sharing with freight, should be the only other considered option.
Anything else simply does not make sense upon any level beyond bragging rights.
  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich
Sigh Sad. The original statement was: "We don't have enough green power to make a vhst carbon neutral"

Anyone (large industrial users) can contract across the grid to buy power from whomever they wish including RE, provided its available. As shown before there is more than enough available. If a VHST operator wanted to they could do so and ONE HYDRO PLANT AT PART LOAD, could do it.

If they wanted to. Of course they could just buy from the general mix as well or 100% coal. If they wanted to.

As shown above on an energy basis using your value as a starting point a VHST will use about 1.3% of total available renewables


Cheers
sigh back at you:roll:

I said 567 MWh each day for all 16 return services S-M is consumed by HSR, however the daily output of NSW RE Wind and Solar is around 777 MWh, not much left for other operations.

Sure more RE could be built just to run the train, for this you need 2100MW of installed capacity of Solar OR 1700MW of wind or combination of the two. No major hydro has been built in NSW for nearly 40 years and used to full capacity so this is all pre-sold, however they could buy from Snowy 2.0 or other pumped hydro/hydro product.
RTT_Rules
? again NSW is not an island, how about considering the NEM? Also in the last 24 hours we see:
- NSW Solar Rooftop: 9800MWh
- NSW Solar utility:    4300MWh
- NSW Wind:              11700MWh
- NSW Hydro:             3400MWh

We disagree by an order of magnitude. Also think your estimate of train consumption is high.

Either way there is enough RE.

Capacity is regularly re-contracted and not all at once. Having been involved in some PPAs  40 year contract would not be usual.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Arctic    'scuse my igorence and dumbness,      PPA?
  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich
Arctic    'scuse my igorence and dumbness,      PPA?
wobert
Sorry - PPA = Power Purchase Agreement. When a industrial customer and supplier agree to buy power at agree rates and conditions over a period of time. It will usually cover price, availability, replacement power if plant not operating etc. I have been involved in the setup of a few of these over the years.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Thanks muchly, and up to 40 years, sheesh.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Sigh Sad. The original statement was: "We don't have enough green power to make a vhst carbon neutral"

Anyone (large industrial users) can contract across the grid to buy power from whomever they wish including RE, provided its available. As shown before there is more than enough available. If a VHST operator wanted to they could do so and ONE HYDRO PLANT AT PART LOAD, could do it.

If they wanted to. Of course they could just buy from the general mix as well or 100% coal. If they wanted to.

As shown above on an energy basis using your value as a starting point a VHST will use about 1.3% of total available renewables


Cheers
sigh back at you:roll:

I said 567 MWh each day for all 16 return services S-M is consumed by HSR, however the daily output of NSW RE Wind and Solar is around 777 MWh, not much left for other operations.

Sure more RE could be built just to run the train, for this you need 2100MW of installed capacity of Solar OR 1700MW of wind or combination of the two. No major hydro has been built in NSW for nearly 40 years and used to full capacity so this is all pre-sold, however they could buy from Snowy 2.0 or other pumped hydro/hydro product.
? again NSW is not an island, how about considering the NEM? Also in the last 24 hours we see:
- NSW Solar Rooftop: 9800MWh
- NSW Solar utility:    4300MWh
- NSW Wind:              11700MWh
- NSW Hydro:             3400MWh

We disagree by an order of magnitude. Also think your estimate of train consumption is high.

Either way there is enough RE.

Capacity is regularly re-contracted and not all at once. Having been involved in some PPAs  40 year contract would not be usual.
arctic
Ok, tell me what the average power demand is for a 8car HST? I used the numbers published by TGV and Japan Bullet trains. No I didn't apply the full motor load, rather around 75%. Remember at 350km/h the drag is very large.

The Hydro network has been there for decades and  mostly installed to provide peak demand. All of the above is fully sold and any new load such as the HST needs to buy its power from somewhere new or someone closing down. To say you can just take over the existing solar PV load and declare yourself RE is BS as all you are doing is moving other loads onto coal, ie shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Yes its a National NEM, but this is more for balancing loads with differential outputs and demands at various times of the day. No one is perpetually buying their power from another state due to the high transmission costs.
  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich
Sigh Sad. The original statement was: "We don't have enough green power to make a vhst carbon neutral"

Anyone (large industrial users) can contract across the grid to buy power from whomever they wish including RE, provided its available. As shown before there is more than enough available. If a VHST operator wanted to they could do so and ONE HYDRO PLANT AT PART LOAD, could do it.

If they wanted to. Of course they could just buy from the general mix as well or 100% coal. If they wanted to.

As shown above on an energy basis using your value as a starting point a VHST will use about 1.3% of total available renewables


Cheers
sigh back at you:roll:

I said 567 MWh each day for all 16 return services S-M is consumed by HSR, however the daily output of NSW RE Wind and Solar is around 777 MWh, not much left for other operations.

Sure more RE could be built just to run the train, for this you need 2100MW of installed capacity of Solar OR 1700MW of wind or combination of the two. No major hydro has been built in NSW for nearly 40 years and used to full capacity so this is all pre-sold, however they could buy from Snowy 2.0 or other pumped hydro/hydro product.
? again NSW is not an island, how about considering the NEM? Also in the last 24 hours we see:
- NSW Solar Rooftop: 9800MWh
- NSW Solar utility:    4300MWh
- NSW Wind:              11700MWh
- NSW Hydro:             3400MWh

We disagree by an order of magnitude. Also think your estimate of train consumption is high.

Either way there is enough RE.

Capacity is regularly re-contracted and not all at once. Having been involved in some PPAs  40 year contract would not be usual.
Ok, tell me what the average power demand is for a 8car HST? I used the numbers published by TGV and Japan Bullet trains. No I didn't apply the full motor load, rather around 75%. Remember at 350km/h the drag is very large.

The Hydro network has been there for decades and  mostly installed to provide peak demand. All of the above is fully sold and any new load such as the HST needs to buy its power from somewhere new or someone closing down. To say you can just take over the existing solar PV load and declare yourself RE is BS as all you are doing is moving other loads onto coal, ie shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Yes its a National NEM, but this is more for balancing loads with differential outputs and demands at various times of the day. No one is perpetually buying their power from another state due to the high transmission costs.
RTT_Rules
For the RE Generation Numbers above: where we disagreed - The difference between your numbers and my numbers is that I think you were mistakenly quoting power (that is MW) and then comparing that with energy (MWh) needed by a HSR over a day. Introducing an error of 24?



TGV Consumption Sydney to Melbourne - Well for the same service intensity as you suggest and using a TGV Duplex model (508 seats) then we see a daily energy consumption of 585MWh*, which while lower than your numbers are broadly comparable. Nevertheless, calculating the Power needed for this energy is 585MWh/24h = 24.4 MW avg used by the HSR as Power.

To put this in perspective there is right now 2040MW of Renewable Energy in a combined NSW and Vic. I hope this puts to bed the idea that there is not enough RE to power a HSR.

Not BS to buy your power from existing renewable, if its available on the market - it creates demand for more. Anyway there is no need to argue this point as the supply of RE is increasing year on year more than is required by HSR and to go on a tangent even if the HSR is buying from the spot market then every year goes by more RE is in the supply.


For the NEM, this is off topic, but I will say generators and customers can and do contract across state lines. A transmission loss of even 10% (high) is overwhelmed if the generation cost is low. As I said before generation supply contracts are renewed all the time. You may see longer term in the Al industry but this is not typical. I also think you are confusing the technical operations of the hydro contribution and how their power is commercially sold. Two different things.

Which numbers to use - state or NEM? Well if you don`t want to use the NEM then at least use VIC+NSW since this is where the train will operate.

All in – I agree investment in Urban and regional MSR may make better sense but it is not because of power consumption.


Cheers



* https://journals.eco-vector.com/transsyst/article/view/10739 gives 45 Wh/Seat/km (installed seat usage)

* https://www.researchgate.net/publication/24053362_The_full_cost_of_high-speed_rail_An_engineering_approach gives 20 kWh/km(train usage)

Both calcs yield a similar value.
  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich
So to flog the dead horse a bit more Smile, a picture for those who don`t like reading medium length posts. This shows renewable energy generation in NSW+VIC over the last week also with the blue line showing average Power consumption by a proposed VHST

This is Power (MW), if you want Energy (MWh), that is the area under the curve.

Generation Data is from Opennem, charting by me.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
You've been hiding your light under a bushel Arctic  you old snake in the grass you.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Artic is that 24.4MW per train and if so you then have to tally in the 4 x XPT's currently running which brings you to about 100MW unless my math is mistaken.

I found a site that says the german ice 3 train is 19-33kw/h per kilometre. Unless my math is wrong does this mean a single train would use roughly 15.2mw to 26.4 MW of power per train over 800km's.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

576MWh at 8kWh per 1kg of coal = 72t of coal per day
RTT_Rules

Which is about the capacity of a coal hopper car.  

All we need to do is couple one up to the rear of our HST sets and the problem is solved!
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Capacity is regularly re-contracted and not all at once. Having been involved in some PPAs  40 year contract would not be usual.
Ok, tell me what the average power demand is for a 8car HST? I used the numbers published by TGV and Japan Bullet trains. No I didn't apply the full motor load, rather around 75%. Remember at 350km/h the drag is very large.
arctic


From the fountain of all knowledge, Wikipedia suggests the TGV duplexes' output 9000 kW - and unless I'm missing a thermodynamic conversion factor or something, that's going to translate to a comparable power draw when running flat out: ~10MW, or- at the absolute most 240Mh/day - not more than 500.

With 16 return services a day, 3hrs each way, that's 320MWh for the entire system.  As @ARTC points out, only a modest fraction of Australia's current renewable energy generation.


The difference between your numbers and my numbers is that I think you were mistakenly quoting power (that is MW) and then comparing that with energy (MWh) needed by a HSR over a day. Introducing an error of 24?

...


TGV Consumption Sydney to Melbourne - Well for the same service intensity as you suggest and using a TGV Duplex model (508 seats) then we see a daily energy consumption of 585MWh*, which while lower than your numbers are broadly comparable. Nevertheless, calculating the Power needed for this energy is 585MWh/24h = 24.4 MW avg used by the HSR as Power.
arctic


I can't reproduce this number, but I get very close with 48.5 kW/Seat/km (also from your link) x 24hrs x 508 Seats for the TGV duplex =~580MWh/day (if I ignore the km Smile).

But broadly, I agree with your assertion that HSR is not a massive power sink.  Using my estimate of 320MWh/day, that represents about   .1TWh/yr (not .1TWh/hr), or .05% of the NEM (200TWh/yr according to the AEMO fact sheet)

To put some perspective on things, the typical wind turbine you see is anywhere from 2-6MW nameplate, modern ones are now up to 8MW, and 12MW turbines are in the pipeline.  AFAIK this productivity boost has come from funky composite materials in the blades making them lighter and stronger (and larger, increasing installation costs).

A single modern windmill (in a decent breeze obviously) generates about the power requirements of a HSR train set.  A well situated wind farm has a typical capacity factor of ~33%, and a poorly sited one ~25%.  

A Syd-Mlb HSR system would only need ~20-25 wind turbines - ideally distributed along the corridor - and it would be a net exporter of power.

Further, the main reason wind has fallen behind solar as Australia's cheapest form of renewable generation ("renewable" is superfluous here BTW, it's just as true of all generation) is the high cost of the transmission infrastructure and compliance.  And because of this, turbines are all lumped together in farms and don't achieve the necessary geographic diversity to provide power consistently.

But, a HSR rail system comes with it's own electrical power transmission/distribution system, and is inherently geographically diverse.

I think the sensible policy response is this:
  • We need a HSR authority
  • It needs to identify and preserve a viable HSR corridor
  • Provision to allow wind turbines within that corridor must be part of the protection.

Edit: I made a very bad typo, I meant 0.1TWh/yr not /hr
  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich
Artic is that 24.4MW per train and if so you then have to tally in the 4 x XPT's currently running which brings you to about 100MW unless my math is mistaken.

I found a site that says the german ice 3 train is 19-33kw/h per kilometre. Unless my math is wrong does this mean a single train would use roughly 15.2mw to 26.4 MW of power per train over 800km's.
simstrain
The MW average power to run 16 services per 24hrs. so no, not per train.

For your last calc you have a result as energy of 15.2MWh (not power as MW). to get power divide by the time in hours taken to do the trip, so 15.2/3= 5MW average power draw per train. we can close the loop by saying there might be an average of 5 services running at once so this brings us to 25MW power.

cheers
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Artic is that 24.4MW per train and if so you then have to tally in the 4 x XPT's currently running which brings you to about 100MW unless my math is mistaken.

I found a site that says the german ice 3 train is 19-33kw/h per kilometre. Unless my math is wrong does this mean a single train would use roughly 15.2mw to 26.4 MW of power per train over 800km's.
The MW average power to run 16 services per 24hrs. so no, not per train.

For your last calc you have a result as energy of 15.2MWh (not power as MW). to get power divide by the time in hours taken to do the trip, so 15.2/3= 5MW average power draw per train. we can close the loop by saying there might be an average of 5 services running at once so this brings us to 25MW power.

cheers
arctic

To replace the Sydney to Melbourne 2017 traffic numbers we would need 30 x 8 car v set capacity sized trains a day + a couple extra to cater for the additional current xpt traffic. Adding a Canberra branch and getting cars off the road would probably add another 10 or so plus the 6 canberra xplorer services, 3 trains to replace the sydney to canberra aircraft and 4 for Melbourne to Canberra and that comes to 55 trains a day using the line. How much power is that starting to draw?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Artic is that 24.4MW per train and if so you then have to tally in the 4 x XPT's currently running which brings you to about 100MW unless my math is mistaken.

I found a site that says the german ice 3 train is 19-33kw/h per kilometre. Unless my math is wrong does this mean a single train would use roughly 15.2mw to 26.4 MW of power per train over 800km's.
The MW average power to run 16 services per 24hrs. so no, not per train.

For your last calc you have a result as energy of 15.2MWh (not power as MW). to get power divide by the time in hours taken to do the trip, so 15.2/3= 5MW average power draw per train. we can close the loop by saying there might be an average of 5 services running at once so this brings us to 25MW power.

cheers

To replace the Sydney to Melbourne 2017 traffic numbers we would need 30 x 8 car v set capacity sized trains a day + a couple extra to cater for the additional current xpt traffic. Adding a Canberra branch and getting cars off the road would probably add another 10 or so plus the 6 canberra xplorer services, 3 trains to replace the sydney to canberra aircraft and 4 for Melbourne to Canberra and that comes to 55 trains a day using the line. How much power is that starting to draw?
simstrain
No one is suggesting 100% mode share for the HST...
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Albo is visiting Melbourne tomorrow with Bill. Could be interesting:
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

Metro 2?!?! I'm really dreaming.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

No, apparently he announced some sort of suburban road package.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

A plane trip to announce more roads. That's just about as far as it gets from the HST! Crying or Very sad
  SinickleBird Chief Train Controller

Location: Qantas Club at Mudgee International Airport
“A plane trip to announce more roads”.

That’s about as “climate friendly “ as it gets.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

A plane trip to announce more roads. That's just about as far as it gets from the HST! Crying or Very sad
potatoinmymouth

I wonder what will be completed first?

The Sydney-Australia High speed trains?

Or the Melbourne surburban underground orbital railway?
  michaelgm Deputy Commissioner

A plane trip to announce more roads. That's just about as far as it gets from the HST! Crying or Very sad

I wonder what will be completed first?

The Sydney-Australia High speed trains?

Or the Melbourne surburban underground orbital railway?
True Believers
The second coming before either of those, two.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Artic is that 24.4MW per train and if so you then have to tally in the 4 x XPT's currently running which brings you to about 100MW unless my math is mistaken.

I found a site that says the german ice 3 train is 19-33kw/h per kilometre. Unless my math is wrong does this mean a single train would use roughly 15.2mw to 26.4 MW of power per train over 800km's.
The MW average power to run 16 services per 24hrs. so no, not per train.

For your last calc you have a result as energy of 15.2MWh (not power as MW). to get power divide by the time in hours taken to do the trip, so 15.2/3= 5MW average power draw per train. we can close the loop by saying there might be an average of 5 services running at once so this brings us to 25MW power.

cheers

To replace the Sydney to Melbourne 2017 traffic numbers we would need 30 x 8 car v set capacity sized trains a day + a couple extra to cater for the additional current xpt traffic. Adding a Canberra branch and getting cars off the road would probably add another 10 or so plus the 6 canberra xplorer services, 3 trains to replace the sydney to canberra aircraft and 4 for Melbourne to Canberra and that comes to 55 trains a day using the line. How much power is that starting to draw?
No one is suggesting 100% mode share for the HST...
potatoinmymouth

Correct Exclamation

Despite the popularity of Eurostar, it's still possible to fly between London & Paris.

Mike.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from: