UP's 4000 class update

 
  michaelgm Deputy Commissioner

should be out and about in May.



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WWIqjXlbDw0

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  4206 Chief Commissioner

Location: Dorrigo yard
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  woodford Chief Commissioner

Thank you for sharing

One big massive engine
4206
The 5 made in 1944 were advertised by there makers as able to put out 7000bhp at 70mph. The loco itself weighs 380 tons tender is another 155tons, total weight 535tons.

The idea was to eliminate both double heading and a pusher loco's in crossing the rockies.

source: Locomotive Cyclopedia 1944

woodford
  M636C Minister for Railways

And I was expecting to read something about Union Pacific's 1300 SD70M locomotives numbered between 3700 and 4999...

Peter
  michaelgm Deputy Commissioner

And I was expecting to read something about Union Pacific's 1300 SD70M locomotives numbered between 3700 and 4999...

Peter
M636C
Should have mentioned steam, in the title. Apologies.
  neillfarmer Chief Train Controller

Andre Chapelon claimed he could have increased the power of a UP 4000 to 12,000 hp but his proposed modifications were extensive. Given his success with French locomotives there is no reason to doubt this.
  michaelgm Deputy Commissioner

Andre Chapelon claimed he could have increased the power of a UP 4000 to 12,000 hp but his proposed modifications were extensive. Given his success with French locomotives there is no reason to doubt this.
neillfarmer
Even at the advertised 7000hp, very little of that will be required now for heritage operation.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Andre Chapelon claimed he could have increased the power of a UP 4000 to 12,000 hp but his proposed modifications were extensive. Given his success with French locomotives there is no reason to doubt this.
Even at the advertised 7000hp, very little of that will be required now for heritage operation.
michaelgm
For true heritage operation you are correct as it was NEVER a pass loco, but I am sure UP will try it on a few decent sized freights. After all 844 has hauled a freight and assisted an 11,000 ton freight that had stalled on a grade, so UP is NOT afraid to load these locos up. It would be nice to see it at the head of a 3 to 4000 ton freight.

A model of a 4000 class I did for the Openrails simulator hauled 9000 ton iron ore train up a 1 in 200 grade, drawbar HP was just over 6000bhp.

woodford
  michaelgm Deputy Commissioner

There is a Utube clip somewhere with UP's Challenger, dragging a long line of double stacked containers.
Might post link later.

Edit

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XhgHrDbN4EU
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
For true heritage operation you are correct as it was NEVER a pass loco, but I am sure UP will try it on a few decent sized freights. After all 844 has hauled a freight and assisted an 11,000 ton freight that had stalled on a grade, so UP is NOT afraid to load these locos up. It would be nice to see it at the head of a 3 to 4000 ton freight.
woodford
Whereas here we have a garratt rated 3000HP in the current table, yet can't go anywhere without a diesel pusher or three.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Trapped in a meeting with Rhonda and Karsten
For true heritage operation you are correct as it was NEVER a pass loco, but I am sure UP will try it on a few decent sized freights. After all 844 has hauled a freight and assisted an 11,000 ton freight that had stalled on a grade, so UP is NOT afraid to load these locos up. It would be nice to see it at the head of a 3 to 4000 ton freight.
Whereas here we have a garratt rated 3000HP in the current table, yet can't go anywhere without a diesel pusher or three.
apw5910
Mainline heritage operators in NSW are guests on busy suburban networks that need to squeeze them in beside their own trains or open-access country networks where delays to other operators' trains have a very real financial impact for all concerned.

Uncle Pete runs its own trains on its own network and is confident enough in the work they have done to restore their steam locos that they will put them on regularly scheduled freight trains to help pay them off.
  LowndesJ515 #TeamRog

Location: Not in Victoria
For true heritage operation you are correct as it was NEVER a pass loco, but I am sure UP will try it on a few decent sized freights. After all 844 has hauled a freight and assisted an 11,000 ton freight that had stalled on a grade, so UP is NOT afraid to load these locos up. It would be nice to see it at the head of a 3 to 4000 ton freight.
Whereas here we have a garratt rated 3000HP in the current table, yet can't go anywhere without a diesel pusher or three.
apw5910
Any steam loco can travel by itself on the mainline without diesel assistance. The operator's choice to put diesel's on it.

6029 would have gone from Goulburn to Junee by itself last September, signal failures causing delays and trains banking up stopped this. 6029 is normally running shuttles these days so instead of running two separate trains, they choose to run them as one. Plus saving on coal and water.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

For true heritage operation you are correct as it was NEVER a pass loco, but I am sure UP will try it on a few decent sized freights. After all 844 has hauled a freight and assisted an 11,000 ton freight that had stalled on a grade, so UP is NOT afraid to load these locos up. It would be nice to see it at the head of a 3 to 4000 ton freight.
Whereas here we have a garratt rated 3000HP in the current table, yet can't go anywhere without a diesel pusher or three.
apw5910
Britain, the USA and Europe appear to have a much more mature way of looking at steam operation, they are seen as either  major tourist attractions or rail publicity. In Aus steam appears to be considered a pain in the rear end.

A problem in Aus appears to be most steamers have NOT been fitted with modern signalling equipment, this limits where they can be used. In Britain particularly an increasing number of steamers are being fitted with this equipment specifcly so they can run on main lines and I would not be surprised if UP4014 was so fittted.

woodford
  LowndesJ515 #TeamRog

Location: Not in Victoria
For true heritage operation you are correct as it was NEVER a pass loco, but I am sure UP will try it on a few decent sized freights. After all 844 has hauled a freight and assisted an 11,000 ton freight that had stalled on a grade, so UP is NOT afraid to load these locos up. It would be nice to see it at the head of a 3 to 4000 ton freight.
Whereas here we have a garratt rated 3000HP in the current table, yet can't go anywhere without a diesel pusher or three.
Britain, the USA and Europe appear to have a much more mature way of looking at steam operation, they are seen as either  major tourist attractions or rail publicity. In Aus steam appears to be considered a pain in the rear end.

A problem in Aus appears to be most steamers have NOT been fitted with modern signalling equipment, this limits where they can be used. In Britain particularly an increasing number of steamers are being fitted with this equipment specifcly so they can run on main lines and I would not be surprised if UP4014 was so fittted.

woodford
woodford
What are you talking about? TPWS in Victoria? As far as i'm aware there are no restrictions (besides the 80km/h speed limit if they dont have TPWS) for any steam loco to go anywhere. If there is a restriction, its mainly due to weight.

Your first comment is talking about Government and stakeholders, yes?
  woodford Chief Commissioner

For true heritage operation you are correct as it was NEVER a pass loco, but I am sure UP will try it on a few decent sized freights. After all 844 has hauled a freight and assisted an 11,000 ton freight that had stalled on a grade, so UP is NOT afraid to load these locos up. It would be nice to see it at the head of a 3 to 4000 ton freight.
Whereas here we have a garratt rated 3000HP in the current table, yet can't go anywhere without a diesel pusher or three.
Britain, the USA and Europe appear to have a much more mature way of looking at steam operation, they are seen as either  major tourist attractions or rail publicity. In Aus steam appears to be considered a pain in the rear end.

A problem in Aus appears to be most steamers have NOT been fitted with modern signalling equipment, this limits where they can be used. In Britain particularly an increasing number of steamers are being fitted with this equipment specifcly so they can run on main lines and I would not be surprised if UP4014 was so fittted.

woodford
What are you talking about? TPWS in Victoria? As far as i'm aware there are no restrictions (besides the 80km/h speed limit if they dont have TPWS) for any steam loco to go anywhere. If there is a restriction, its mainly due to weight.

Your first comment is talking about Government and stakeholders, yes?
LowndesJ515
On 130kph main lines 80kph is a significant restriction, it limits the paths availible. THe AI locomotive trust went to a great deal of trouble to get the locomotive certified for 90mph, to allow it to run on main lines without it holding up normal 100mph traffic.

"Your first comment is talking about Government and stakeholders, yes?"

Correct
  LowndesJ515 #TeamRog

Location: Not in Victoria
Britain, the USA and Europe appear to have a much more mature way of looking at steam operation, they are seen as either  major tourist attractions or rail publicity. In Aus steam appears to be considered a pain in the rear end.

A problem in Aus appears to be most steamers have NOT been fitted with modern signalling equipment, this limits where they can be used. In Britain particularly an increasing number of steamers are being fitted with this equipment specifcly so they can run on main lines and I would not be surprised if UP4014 was so fittted.

woodford
What are you talking about? TPWS in Victoria? As far as i'm aware there are no restrictions (besides the 80km/h speed limit if they dont have TPWS) for any steam loco to go anywhere. If there is a restriction, its mainly due to weight.

Your first comment is talking about Government and stakeholders, yes?
On 130kph main lines 80kph is a significant restriction, it limits the paths availible. THe AI locomotive trust went to a great deal of trouble to get the locomotive certified for 90mph, to allow it to run on main lines without it holding up normal 100mph traffic.

"Your first comment is talking about Government and stakeholders, yes?"

Correct
woodford
In Victoria, Wooden cars are limited to 80km/h with the Steel cars rated for 115km/h. There are paths out there for 80km/h running. Steel cars can run at 115km/h. The only locomotive that can run at 115km/h is the R Class. The D3 is rated at 95km/h. K, J & A2 are all 80km/h with the Y Class rated for 60km/h.

NSW, pretty much paths available all the time besides trying to access Sydney Trains through the peak. Again, different rollingstock has different speeds up to 115km/h. I have noticed that its a lot easier to run trains in NSW compared to Victoria.

I agree that other countries have different attitudes to running Heritage to Australia.
  neillfarmer Chief Train Controller

There is a Utube clip somewhere with UP's Challenger, dragging a long line of double stacked containers.
Might post link later.

Edit

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XhgHrDbN4EU
michaelgm
That was a special run put on at the request of APL. Apart from 5 kms of compensated 1:150 grade up Archer hill the rest of the journey to North Platte is all down Hill. The return journey was with a very small load.
Apart from the APL train and the 844 assisting a stalled freight I can't think of any other steam freights with the UP steam locomotives.
  neillfarmer Chief Train Controller

There is a Utube clip somewhere with UP's Challenger, dragging a long line of double stacked containers.
Might post link later.

Edit

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XhgHrDbN4EU
That was a special run put on at the request of APL. Apart from 5 kms of compensated 1:150 grade up Archer hill the rest of the journey to North Platte is all down Hill. The return journey was with a very small load.
Apart from the APL train and the 844 assisting a stalled freight I can't think of any other steam freights with the UP steam locomotives.
neillfarmer
Well after stating the above I did find another clip where 844 hauled a short 23 car freight between Denver and Cheyenne. It appeared to be making very light work of it.
  michaelgm Deputy Commissioner
  KngtRider Chief Commissioner

Location: http://www.nitroware.net
Ed Dickens has mentioned several times in the various vlogs and interviews hes done that the UP heritage fleet is still expected to pull their weight (no pun intended, my words) and contribute to the company rather than being a burden.

The heritage fleet hauls freight 'when needed'

Here are some photos and videos from the July 2018 instance of 844 hauling freight (at speed)

http://railpictures.net/photo/690401/

http://railpictures.net/photo/678560/



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPLekSSiQ8Y



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g3-q2lhQas



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX0Q7m4AJjc



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A17fQpoCQ-0
  ssaunders Train Controller

There is a Utube clip somewhere with UP's Challenger, dragging a long line of double stacked containers.
Might post link later.

Edit

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XhgHrDbN4EU
That was a special run put on at the request of APL. Apart from 5 kms of compensated 1:150 grade up Archer hill the rest of the journey to North Platte is all down Hill. The return journey was with a very small load.
Apart from the APL train and the 844 assisting a stalled freight I can't think of any other steam freights with the UP steam locomotives.
neillfarmer

From what I read over the years, when steam does go on the front of a freight there is little or no warning so not often photos. If the engine is in steam sitting at North Platte and heading to Omaha for example if there is a freight within it's capability they couple up and go. Don't forget UP steam locos have MU controls for the diesels behind.

While it is rare, it does happen.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Remember the 4000 class has a maximum tractive effort of 135,000 lbs, this is as much as the couplers will take, and a power of around 6000bhp. They will be able to pull almost any freight UP can put together and such a load will not do it any harm.

Note: the iron ore trains in the Pilbara, in northern Western Australia, require a total tractive effort of over 300,000 lbs to avoid coupler problems, 3 pairs of loco's are put throughout the length of the train.

woodford
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

There is a Utube clip somewhere with UP's Challenger, dragging a long line of double stacked containers.
Might post link later.

Edit

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XhgHrDbN4EU
That was a special run put on at the request of APL. Apart from 5 kms of compensated 1:150 grade up Archer hill the rest of the journey to North Platte is all down Hill. The return journey was with a very small load.
Apart from the APL train and the 844 assisting a stalled freight I can't think of any other steam freights with the UP steam locomotives.

From what I read over the years, when steam does go on the front of a freight there is little or no warning so not often photos. If the engine is in steam sitting at North Platte and heading to Omaha for example if there is a freight within it's capability they couple up and go. Don't forget UP steam locos have MU controls for the diesels behind.

While it is rare, it does happen.
ssaunders
It's far more common than you might imagine including a fairly recent one pulled by 8444. The real power and the glory. Someone once tried to tell me that the NSW 60 class were the largest locos in the world. I laughed and told him they were about half way there. We suffer from railway chauvinism in this country with a surprising number not realising just how bloody big US steam was. For instance the NSWGR 57 class were actually based on a scaled down Santa Fe light mountain type.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Remember the 4000 class has a maximum tractive effort of 135,000 lbs, this is as much as the couplers will take, and a power of around 6000bhp. They will be able to pull almost any freight UP can put together and such a load will not do it any harm.

Note: the iron ore trains in the Pilbara, in northern Western Australia, require a total tractive effort of over 300,000 lbs to avoid coupler problems, 3 pairs of loco's are put throughout the length of the train.

woodford
woodford
I thought they were designed to pull freights out of Ogden over the Wasatch Hills at 100 mph? There is a bit of a dispute but a C&O loco may have been more powerful. Forget your little dinky British steam, this is the real power and glory, the Gods of steam.

The 38, 57, 58 and 60 class NSW types are all sort of distant relatives with full cast GSI frames.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Andre Chapelon claimed he could have increased the power of a UP 4000 to 12,000 hp but his proposed modifications were extensive. Given his success with French locomotives there is no reason to doubt this.
neillfarmer
I have Looked this up and not found a single reference to this online. Perhaps You can enlighten me?

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