Duplication from South Geelong - Waurn Ponds?

 
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner


Sadly, when we have illogical calls for Pendolino's above...the discussion has lost its way...

M.As opposed to pretty much every other RP thread?!?!?!?

BG
BrentonGolding
Like the latest Mildura train thread which took an exciting diversion via the NZ Air Force Laughing

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  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
The distance from Waurn Ponds to Melbourne should be able to be done in 45 mins really. Australian Trains are so slow.

I have booked a trip for October from Birmingham to the Lake District, 220 km, in one hour 40 minutes. The 80 km's Geelong to Melbourne takes one hour 10mins.
wolvestrains
And prey tell, how much is the train from Birmingham to the Lake District going to cost the average punter? And how does this compare with the standard MYKI fare from Waurn Ponds to Southern Cross?
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE

Sadly, when we have illogical calls for Pendolino's above...the discussion has lost its way...

M.As opposed to pretty much every other RP thread?!?!?!?

BG
BrentonGolding
A few years back I caught the DMU Industrial rail tour of Brisbane. Sat next to a guy who very quickly we realised each others tag from QRIG news group and Railpage.

He said he never reads past the first page on any thread because of all the side tracks to the discussion (like this Smile). Yep, most of the technical nerdy stuff is on the first page, then all the fun begins from there.
  wolvestrains Station Staff

So with this latest announcement of Federal funds this morning, is this now fully funded (presuming a liberal election win). How come people were making fun of my high speed train ideas, since posted it appears all parties now appear committed to high speed rail between Geelong and Melbourne. You guys should go easy on new forum members.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

So with this latest announcement of Federal funds this morning, is this now fully funded (presuming a liberal election win). How come people were making fun of my high speed train ideas, since posted it appears all parties now appear committed to high speed rail between Geelong and Melbourne. You guys should go easy on new forum members.
wolvestrains

First of all, the extra $700m for Waurn Ponds duplication, while welcome, is nothing to do with “fast rail”, and don’t let ScoMo or JA make you believe otherwise. The good news is it’ll form a substantial improvement to Geelong punctuality, reliability and stopping pattern consistency with about 4 years, and without the need to finish the shemozzle that occurs east of Manor Junction.

Second, I think nearly everyone on this forum agrees that focusing on the speed of Geelong trains at this point is utterly idiotic, and moreover, that the proposed upgrades to 200km/h aren’t even “fast rail” by any normal definition.

Last, a belated welcome to RP. Please don’t be discouraged by the tone of certain discussions; it’s rarely meant personally and at the end of the day we are all here to talk about trains.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
So with this latest announcement of Federal funds this morning, is this now fully funded (presuming a liberal election win). How come people were making fun of my high speed train ideas, since posted it appears all parties now appear committed to high speed rail between Geelong and Melbourne. You guys should go easy on new forum members.
wolvestrains

There are some very passionate posters in this forum who quite often cannot see the forest for the trees.

Suffice to say, most posters just want a service that's reliable and ideally doesn't require stopping at Wyndham Vale or Tarneit, which ideally will have their own network, quadded and operating under Metro trains.

Be mindful also that it's unlikely an incoming Labor government would renege on a policy commitment such as this.

Mike.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

So with this latest announcement of Federal funds this morning, is this now fully funded (presuming a liberal election win). How come people were making fun of my high speed train ideas, since posted it appears all parties now appear committed to high speed rail between Geelong and Melbourne. You guys should go easy on new forum members.
wolvestrains
Wolvestrains , welcome .

The realities are these  :

- Whoever wins Federal Election now South Geelong - Waurn Ponds duplication including second platforms at South Geelong, Marshall & Waurn Ponds is now a goer . If the large part of the work is aleady well on in detailed planning then earliest completion will be 2022/23 . Also includes grade seps at  Wood St South Geelong , and  Surf Coast Highway, Grovedale (both probably road over sunken rail  .  (Also Barwon Heads Rd grade sepped but as part Vicroads road duplication project.) After recent SPADS no doubt full three position signalling throughout .

- At the same time next priority electrify RRL  Southern Cross  (15/16) to  Wyndham Vale or Black Forest Rd and separate sparks to serve Tarneit & Wyndham Vale . Geelongs largely exress through Tarneit & Wyndham Vale at peak periods .

- Followed immediately by separate pair VLP tracks  Sunshine - Robinsons Rd - Black Forest Rd for  VLP trains .

- Final stage grade separation 10 lx between Black Forest Road &  North Geelong , tart up existing Class - 1 track to 200kmh and your 35 minute express time to Geelong is achievable .

The funding allocated so far from all sources is enough to complete the duplication South Geelong to Waurn Ponds, do the three grade seps between Sunshine and robinsons Rd Junction, and the extra VLP track pair as far as Black Forest Road .

Extra funds will be required as indicated by others for 200kmh running, 10 extra grade seps, and new generation trains either bi modal or fast sparks to Geelong .

Before any of this the first priority is to address teh chronic overcrowding on Geelong & Ballarat services, by introducing 4 car Vl sets to the VL fleet so that with a mix of 3 & 4 car sets ; train sizes can be increased short term to 7 cars on both lines, and medium term 8 cars on Geelong .
  NimbleJack Station Staff

So with this latest announcement of Federal funds this morning, is this now fully funded (presuming a liberal election win). How come people were making fun of my high speed train ideas, since posted it appears all parties now appear committed to high speed rail between Geelong and Melbourne. You guys should go easy on new forum members.
Before any of this the first priority is to address teh chronic overcrowding on Geelong & Ballarat services, by introducing 4 car Vl sets to the VL fleet so that with a mix of 3 & 4 car sets ; train sizes can be increased short term to 7 cars on both lines, and medium term 8 cars on Geelong .
kuldalai

Forget about it. The infrastructure is set up for three- and six-car V/Locity sets and there are no spare TMs. No one is going to change that for such marginal capacity gains.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

So with this latest announcement of Federal funds this morning, is this now fully funded (presuming a liberal election win). How come people were making fun of my high speed train ideas, since posted it appears all parties now appear committed to high speed rail between Geelong and Melbourne. You guys should go easy on new forum members.
Before any of this the first priority is to address teh chronic overcrowding on Geelong & Ballarat services, by introducing 4 car Vl sets to the VL fleet so that with a mix of 3 & 4 car sets ; train sizes can be increased short term to 7 cars on both lines, and medium term 8 cars on Geelong .

Forget about it. The infrastructure is set up for three- and six-car V/Locity sets and there are no spare TMs. No one is going to change that for such marginal capacity gains.
NimbleJack
You miss the point the issue now is longer VL trains,  as there are no spare peak paths on RRL ;  NOT more 3 car sets that only allow VLP to replace a few peak loco hauled sets with 6 car VL sets .  One would buy 28 - 30 T strict trailer cars and drop them into existing 3 car sets .  A 4 car set of DM.TM.T.DM would seat 312 .  So a 7 car set 534 and an 8 car set 624.
Buying 33 T cars would increase peak capacity over Geelong & Ballarat by  2970 seats whereas buying 11 x 3 car trains would buy 2442 seats . Buying 11 extra sets costs approximately $ 220m whereas buying 33 T cars would cost something like  $ 169m.  So spend $ 220m for 2,442 seats or  $  169m for 2970 seats .
New maintenance depots at Waurn ponds and Ballarat West can be set up for 4 car sets, and with additional sets of jacks at CMD Dudley St can also handle 4 car sets . 7 car sets have run to Geelong before, and 7 car sets can be run to Ballarat with minimal alters . Buying more 3 car sets above 90 sets is suicidal as ultimately short term VLP will have too many VL train sets. Melton & Wyndham Vale electrification will alone realease 10 x 3 car sets for use to Shepparton, Seymour and modification for 4 car Inter City sets to Warrnambool and Bairnsdale . Acquisiton of 30 odd T cars now would provide a 30 % incraese in seating capacity on both the Geelong and Ballarat lines , hardly a marginal increase in capacity as suggested .  Finally with a mix of 3 and 4 car sets VLP can save tens of $ millions in opex in that currently many off peak and shoulder peak services have to run as 6 cars , when a 4 car would suffice . The savings over 260 Weekdays a years over several trips in each corridor x 260 days adds up to $ tens millions dollars to be saved in fuel and maintenance costs .
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
 Finally with a mix of 3 and 4 car sets VLP can save tens of $ millions in opex in that currently many off peak and shoulder peak services have to run as 6 cars , when a 4 car would suffice . The savings over 260 Weekdays a years over several trips in each corridor x 260 days adds up to $ tens millions dollars to be saved in fuel and maintenance costs .
kuldalai

With ongoing patronage increases it will be only be a matter of time that 6 car trains would need to be in service during off-peak times, so I think the call for 4 car sets is ultimately...mute.

Mike.
  NimbleJack Station Staff

"You miss the point the issue now is longer VL trains"
Not really.

The point is that, regardless of the effort you've invested in your argument, there will be no four-car V/Locity set circulating on broad gauge today, tomorrow, or at any stage in the foreseeable future. Warrnambool, Bairnsdale and other feral repositories of tumbleweeds and dust will make do with the same three- and six-car sets that everyone else gets.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
"You miss the point the issue now is longer VL trains"
Not really.

The point is that, regardless of the effort you've invested in your argument, there will be no four-car V/Locity set circulating on broad gauge today, tomorrow, or at any stage in the foreseeable future. Warrnambool, Bairnsdale and other feral repositories of tumbleweeds and dust will make do with the same three- and six-car sets that everyone else gets.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble.
NimbleJack

Hi, welcome to the forum..

Idea...a friendly tip. Many of the posters in this forum are from or have strong links to the regional cities you are calling 'repositories of tumble weeds and dust', therefore I'd be careful in that space.

Mike.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Beneficial yes, but what about the single track section between Geelong and South Geelong. Yes, I know there’s the tunnel but we have already turned a single track tunnel into a double track one with the Rosanna Duplication Project.

It still leaves a bottleneck, may be not as severe but a bottleneck on the Waurn Ponds/Geelong Line. Also disappointing not to see anything said about Torquay Rail
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Beneficial yes, but what about the single track section between Geelong and South Geelong. Yes, I know there’s the tunnel but we have already turned a single track tunnel into a double track one with the Rosanna Duplication Project.

It still leaves a bottleneck, may be not as severe but a bottleneck on the Waurn Ponds/Geelong Line.
ptvcommuter
A project for another day, when bottleneck congestion becomes an Issue
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Beneficial yes, but what about the single track section between Geelong and South Geelong. Yes, I know there’s the tunnel but we have already turned a single track tunnel into a double track one with the Rosanna Duplication Project.

It still leaves a bottleneck, may be not as severe but a bottleneck on the Waurn Ponds/Geelong Line.
A project for another day, when bottleneck congestion becomes an Issue
Nightfire

Well there is at least a study being done look at a future duplication btw South Geelong and Geelong. But yeah the government hasn't have unlimited money to spend on gold plating every project.

If it turns out it's feasible duplicated the Geelong rail corridor further it will. But the current duplication works will mean the Waurn Ponds service can comfortably run at a 20 minute frequency which will be a huge benefit to the current 40 minute situation for Deakin uni students.

And yes I know, I daily commute to Deakin Uni using the V-line train, and yes it gets delayed a bit from the single track even at the 40 minute frequency and with a passing loop mid-way. Surprisingly sometimes it's easier to get into Deakin getting off South Geelong and getting the bus from there, as you know it alternates btw the South Geelong and Waurn Ponds service every 20 minutes.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Beneficial yes, but what about the single track section between Geelong and South Geelong. Yes, I know there’s the tunnel but we have already turned a single track tunnel into a double track one with the Rosanna Duplication Project.

It still leaves a bottleneck, may be not as severe but a bottleneck on the Waurn Ponds/Geelong Line.
A project for another day, when bottleneck congestion becomes an Issue

Well there is at least a study being done look at a future duplication btw South Geelong and Geelong. But yeah the government hasn't have unlimited money to spend on gold plating every project.

If it turns out it's feasible duplicated the Geelong rail corridor further it will. But the current duplication works will mean the Waurn Ponds service can comfortably run at a 20 minute frequency which will be a huge benefit to the current 40 minute situation for Deakin uni students.

And yes I know, I daily commute to Deakin Uni using the V-line train, and yes it gets delayed a bit from the single track even at the 40 minute frequency and with a passing loop mid-way. Surprisingly sometimes it's easier to get into Deakin getting off South Geelong and getting the bus from there, as you know it alternates btw the South Geelong and Waurn Ponds service every 20 minutes.
True Believers
The single line section Geelong - South Geelong is not a priority as it is only 3 minutes running time , Once the South Geelong section is fully dupicated said to be 2022/23 then your Down trains can arrive pretty reliably at Geelong to take their single track 3 minute path through the tunnel. Ditto on the Up with double track provided VLP allow adequate turnaround time at Waurn Ponds.

One can easily get 10 trains an hour through the single track tunnel once you have double track on both sides.

What is not helping currently in operating the current timetable is that :

- VLP persist in timetabling trains Southern Cross via Nth Melbourne flyover to depart Footscray in 7 minutes, when it takes actually 9 minutes , so every Down tarin is 2 late at Geelong by default. (7 minutes only achievable from platforms 15/16)
- VLP timetabling trains 2 mins behind each other on RRL when the signalling is set up for min 3 min headways .
- Thirdly a silly "Nanny State"  40kmh SR for  DMU through tunnel when 50 kmh should be achievable .
- Owing to many SPADS at Marshall there are severe SR,s permanently imposed on both the Up & Down and also on the Up from Reserve Rd lx into Marshall .  Presumably with the duplication and provision of three position signalling and Intermediate autos these SR,s will then dissapear .

Over 120 passenger trains pass through the tunnel on Weekdays, and whilst the use of the single line section beyond South Geelong is very intense and tightly timetabled, it works remarkably well thanks to Signallers at Centrol always on the ball, and smart signal box work by the guys at South Geelong .

So Broadford frame gone,  North Geelong "C" neraly gone , leaves South Geelong as one of few remaining mechanical interlockings on the country passenger network .  (IIRC Wallan & Kilmore East are still mechanical interlockings also ?)
  historian Deputy Commissioner

So Broadford frame gone,  North Geelong "C" neraly gone , leaves South Geelong as one of few remaining mechanical interlockings on the country passenger network .  (IIRC Wallan & Kilmore East are still mechanical interlockings also ?)
kuldalai

Remaining country mechanical frames are: South Geelong (Rocker), Meredith (DW), Wallan (Tappet), Kilmore East (Tappet), and Castlemaine A (tappet). Oh, and Ouyen (tappet), I always forget Ouyen.

North Geelong C has gone, the building lives on for the moment as the base for the hand signaller.
  wolvestrains Station Staff

What are the implications of the election result on this. Liberals have won but it looks like Labor might have won the marginal seat in which Waurn Ponds and Marshall sit. Was probably promised as a way to help hold the seat for the liberals.
  8077 Chief Train Controller

Location: Crossing the Rubicon
The money has already been placed into the previous budget and the forward estimates on expenditure making me think it will be ok?
  ngarner Train Controller

Location: Seville
The money has already been placed into the previous budget and the forward estimates on expenditure making me think it will be ok?
8077
Reneging on it now would not be a smart move even though the coalition losing the seat was almost guaranteed after the seats re-distribution.

Neil
  Contrillion Junior Train Controller

Location: Geelong, VIC
As I understand it the Victorian state government has provided most of the funds for this project, and as nothing has changed in that regard (and the federal budget has passed through parliament effectively locking those funds in also) I doubt it will affect the duplication works.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

There is only $ 50m in Federal Governments forward estimates over next 4 years towards  the promised  duplication South Geelong - Waurn Ponds and $ 2 bn towards actually quadding Sunshine to Black Forest Junction . So don't hold your breath .

Secondly whilst Labor has won Corangamite, and Co=alition returned  , Sco Mo aint going to be rushing on either at actually providing any cash .    You don't thow nuts to a monkey after he has done his tricks !!!!

Normal hostilities will simply resume between  ScoMo and  Andrews .

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