XPT Replacement Discussion

 
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Too bad the brand new trains have no sleeper accommodation. Goes to show what contempt our politicians have for the paying passenger. Return to sender...

Getting back to what I said earlier, if people around the darling floodplains have had the river taken away from them, what makes you think they will ever see a CAF?

From the number of sets I have seen published in the tables, I am even more certain that any technical or breakdown problems on OTHER smaller set routes, will require backups. In fact, this is a problem across the entire NSW Trains network.

I am yet to be convinced that BH will see anything other than XPLs or rubber, which again is not a bad thing. If they put up with PH101 for a long time, they can make do with the XPL.

The NSW election is over, time for the politicians to stop playing pretend...
ANR

Broken Hill will see the new train ANR because that is what is replacing the Xplorer. The new trains are just a newer and more modern type of Xplorer being diesel electric instead of diesel hydraulic.

As for the river the only way to fix that is to link those water hungry cotton farms and the river to water resources from the east of the state. Certainly the desalination plant in Sydney should be working 100% to provide the cotton farmers with water instead of using the resource from inland rivers.

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  a6et Minister for Railways

Too bad the brand new trains have no sleeper accommodation. Goes to show what contempt our politicians have for the paying passenger. Return to sender...

Getting back to what I said earlier, if people around the darling floodplains have had the river taken away from them, what makes you think they will ever see a CAF?

From the number of sets I have seen published in the tables, I am even more certain that any technical or breakdown problems on OTHER smaller set routes, will require backups. In fact, this is a problem across the entire NSW Trains network.

I am yet to be convinced that BH will see anything other than XPLs or rubber, which again is not a bad thing. If they put up with PH101 for a long time, they can make do with the XPL.

The NSW election is over, time for the politicians to stop playing pretend...

Broken Hill will see the new train ANR because that is what is replacing the Xplorer. The new trains are just a newer and more modern type of Xplorer being diesel electric instead of diesel hydraulic.

As for the river the only way to fix that is to link those water hungry cotton farms and the river to water resources from the east of the state. Certainly the desalination plant in Sydney should be working 100% to provide the cotton farmers with water instead of using the resource from inland rivers.
simstrain
Totally agree re the cotton farms.  I read a while back how cotton farming in the U.S destroyed many thousands of acres owing to its need of water plus the actual damage to the soil that cotton plants actually do to the soil and robbing it of nutrients, and fertility for any other crops needed to be grown there.

There is a lot of concern on the amount of water being taken out from the Liverpool Plains aqua flow with the prospect of it being drained to a large extent making farming overall very very marginal in years to come. Thankfully one other project that could have had an effect is not going ahead and that is the Watermark - Caroona coal mines.  I am not sure how far in towards WCK which is just off the plains that cotton is now grown but that whole area basically NW of the old staff/loops of Burilda and Bakana were highly productive grain and other food production areas, Cotton was more grown to the West of Narrabri or more specifically Wee Waa today things have changed with cotton coming in close to Gunnedah and possibly further.

Having specific water pipelines to areas from DeSal plants along the coast may cost a bit but it would do heaps to help the overall inland regions especially as we have seen in this recent and current drought that is still in existence in the eastern states.  The costs of them however should be born on the big multi national cotton conglomerates who make a fair profit every year, they drain water away from not just the grain industry but also from the food production areas as well.  

There was a huge area near Caroona that was big in Tomato production that was owned and road freighted to the Edgell Cannery at Cowra, no sign of it these days. But that's life! and part way why we now import so much food that was once grown here.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The line to bomaderry is going to be getting a 4km passsing loop between Gerringong and Berry at Toolijooa and this will allow an increase in service to 30 minutes and so this will mean 2 trains operating and a spare or 2 in case of a breakdown. Even more reason for endeavours to remain in service here.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
The line to bomaderry is going to be getting a 4km passsing loop between Gerringong and Berry at Toolijooa and this will allow an increase in service to 30 minutes and so this will mean 2 trains operating and a spare or 2 in case of a breakdown. Even more reason for endeavours to remain in service here.
simstrain
Just because it can allow something does not mean there will be a service frequency increase.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

The line to bomaderry is going to be getting a 4km passsing loop between Gerringong and Berry at Toolijooa and this will allow an increase in service to 30 minutes and so this will mean 2 trains operating and a spare or 2 in case of a breakdown. Even more reason for endeavours to remain in service here.
simstrain

https://www.2st.com.au/news/shoalhaven-news/132647-berejiklian-government-commits-125-million-to-upgrade-rail-services

I can't find the official press release, not anything on the NSW Gvt website - I presume this announcement was an election promise anyway.  

That said, $125m for a 4km crossing loop?  They must be buying back the water rights along that stretch of line as well.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner


...  I know that all hunter line sets are 2 car services currently which is why I'm suggesting that the endeavour fleet will continue on this line. These services may expand beyond 2 cars in the future but they are for all intents and purposes a suburban type service rather then a regional service.
simstrain

I'm not as familiar with the Hunter SWT as the other DMU routes.  I was under the impression some of the upper hunter services were 4 car trains, but that appears not to be the case.  

I'm pretty sure the current published timetable requires 7 concurrent train sets to fulfill.  Newcastle Interchange -> Telarah is 41min, and the base timetable uses 4 trains on this to provide a 30min freq service.  3 trains are needed concurrently to go to Scone (x2) and Dungong (x1).

With skip stopping, this is cut to 35 min which means a 90min out and back cycle is possible, and only 3 trains required to fulfill the timeable.

It *should* be possible to make a timetable that only uses 6 of the 7 Hunter sets without any noticeable change in service standards.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

The line to bomaderry is going to be getting a 4km passsing loop between Gerringong and Berry at Toolijooa and this will allow an increase in service to 30 minutes and so this will mean 2 trains operating and a spare or 2 in case of a breakdown. Even more reason for endeavours to remain in service here.

https://www.2st.com.au/news/shoalhaven-news/132647-berejiklian-government-commits-125-million-to-upgrade-rail-services

I can't find the official press release, not anything on the NSW Gvt website - I presume this announcement was an election promise anyway.  

That said, $125m for a 4km crossing loop?  They must be buying back the water rights along that stretch of line as well.
djf01
There are a few more articles mentioning this and something on the local MP's web site. All released in the week prior to election. They are also talking of more platforms at Bomaderry, and they haven't even worked out what land needs to be resumed at Toolijooa. Delivery is promised for this term of government.
  a6et Minister for Railways


...  I know that all hunter line sets are 2 car services currently which is why I'm suggesting that the endeavour fleet will continue on this line. These services may expand beyond 2 cars in the future but they are for all intents and purposes a suburban type service rather then a regional service.
I'm not as familiar with the Hunter SWT as the other DMU routes.  I was under the impression some of the upper hunter services were 4 car trains, but that appears not to be the case.  

I'm pretty sure the current published timetable requires 7 concurrent train sets to fulfill.  Newcastle Interchange -> Telarah is 41min, and the base timetable uses 4 trains on this to provide a 30min freq service.  3 trains are needed concurrently to go to Scone (x2) and Dungong (x1).

With skip stopping, this is cut to 35 min which means a 90min out and back cycle is possible, and only 3 trains required to fulfill the timeable.

It *should* be possible to make a timetable that only uses 6 of the 7 Hunter sets without any noticeable change in service standards.
djf01
It would be very tight if one set was down the way things are ATM, there's a new TT coming out soon, to go with the NW service, meaning new connections.  The Peak hours take up extra set needs especially the Scone service, and talk of extensions to Singleton are a big possibility as well.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Too bad the brand new trains have no sleeper accommodation. Goes to show what contempt our politicians have for the paying passenger. Return to sender...

Getting back to what I said earlier, if people around the darling floodplains have had the river taken away from them, what makes you think they will ever see a CAF?

From the number of sets I have seen published in the tables, I am even more certain that any technical or breakdown problems on OTHER smaller set routes, will require backups. In fact, this is a problem across the entire NSW Trains network.

I am yet to be convinced that BH will see anything other than XPLs or rubber, which again is not a bad thing. If they put up with PH101 for a long time, they can make do with the XPL.

The NSW election is over, time for the politicians to stop playing pretend...

Broken Hill will see the new train ANR because that is what is replacing the Xplorer. The new trains are just a newer and more modern type of Xplorer being diesel electric instead of diesel hydraulic.

As for the river the only way to fix that is to link those water hungry cotton farms and the river to water resources from the east of the state. Certainly the desalination plant in Sydney should be working 100% to provide the cotton farmers with water instead of using the resource from inland rivers.
Totally agree re the cotton farms.  I read a while back how cotton farming in the U.S destroyed many thousands of acres owing to its need of water plus the actual damage to the soil that cotton plants actually do to the soil and robbing it of nutrients, and fertility for any other crops needed to be grown there.

There is a lot of concern on the amount of water being taken out from the Liverpool Plains aqua flow with the prospect of it being drained to a large extent making farming overall very very marginal in years to come. Thankfully one other project that could have had an effect is not going ahead and that is the Watermark - Caroona coal mines.  I am not sure how far in towards WCK which is just off the plains that cotton is now grown but that whole area basically NW of the old staff/loops of Burilda and Bakana were highly productive grain and other food production areas, Cotton was more grown to the West of Narrabri or more specifically Wee Waa today things have changed with cotton coming in close to Gunnedah and possibly further.

Having specific water pipelines to areas from DeSal plants along the coast may cost a bit but it would do heaps to help the overall inland regions especially as we have seen in this recent and current drought that is still in existence in the eastern states.  The costs of them however should be born on the big multi national cotton conglomerates who make a fair profit every year, they drain water away from not just the grain industry but also from the food production areas as well.  

There was a huge area near Caroona that was big in Tomato production that was owned and road freighted to the Edgell Cannery at Cowra, no sign of it these days. But that's life! and part way why we now import so much food that was once grown here.
a6et
Making Desal water is expensive and probably not the best solution to supply water to the western slopes and plains.

We have 12 million people living Sydney to Brisbane and behind. Why not collect their waste water and just pump it over the hill. You have to pump the desal, so this avoids the cost of desal. Drop the water into the head waters of the various rivers and let it flow. Allocate half the flow to farmers, the other half to the river.

Brisbane already has a major pipeline from the treatment plants running to Wivenhoe, juts need to extend and build a pumping station. You also have a number of other major towns along the way that could also contribute, ie Newcastle etc.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

DJF they are normally 2 car sets on the hunter line with 2 x 2 car sets in peak where necessary.

High quality rail is not cheap and unlike Victoria the sydney trains network doesn't just get cobbled together with some screws and toothpicks. There will need to be new drainage and signalling in addition to the track.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

That is also an option but the desal is already there in Sydney and being paid for regardless and so you only have to connect the west to warragamba.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
That is also an option but the desal is already there in Sydney and being paid for regardless and so you only have to connect the west to warragamba.
simstrain
Warragamba isn't west of the range.

Sydney is paying for the care and maintainance of the desal, not its operation when not in use.

Tap into the waste water, its cheaper and freely available, also significantly more than the desal supply.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Making Desal water is expensive and probably not the best solution to supply water to the western slopes and plains.

We have 12 million people living Sydney to Brisbane and behind. Why not collect their waste water and just pump it over the hill. You have to pump the desal, so this avoids the cost of desal. Drop the water into the head waters of the various rivers and let it flow. Allocate half the flow to farmers, the other half to the river.

Brisbane already has a major pipeline from the treatment plants running to Wivenhoe, juts need to extend and build a pumping station. You also have a number of other major towns along the way that could also contribute, ie Newcastle etc.
RTT_Rules
Yes desal is expensive, but at least its a constant supply.  Much of the waste water that goes down the drains can also be recycled and sent inland to supplement the desal problem

When one considers the cost of droughts and the lower available water, its not always going to be enough to simply recycle water. I have watched as some locations such as Murrurundi at the moment has to bring in water for the town, has done since last year, now its in ever more quantity. The cost to road freight it is quite horrendous and placing big burdens on the communities.

Recycled water going into the desal pipelines could assist big time and help restrict the effects of prolonged droughts, such as we have seen in this present drought. The cost of road transporting of water is not cheap, also the extra burden on roads and the like, it also means that other towns and cities may also suffer from reduced water availability and costs.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Yes desal is expensive, but at least its a constant supply.  Much of the waste water that goes down the drains can also be recycled and sent inland to supplement the desal problem

When one considers the cost of droughts and the lower available water, its not always going to be enough to simply recycle water. I have watched as some locations such as Murrurundi at the moment has to bring in water for the town, has done since last year, now its in ever more quantity. The cost to road freight it is quite horrendous and placing big burdens on the communities.

Recycled water going into the desal pipelines could assist big time and help restrict the effects of prolonged droughts, such as we have seen in this present drought. The cost of road transporting of water is not cheap, also the extra burden on roads and the like, it also means that other towns and cities may also suffer from reduced water availability and costs.
a6et
Sydney Discharges over 1.5BL per day via three Ocean outfalls.

Assumption that you will add another 1BL per day to this if you add Newcastle, GC, Brisbane and a few others to the flow. So say 2.5BL per day today recycled water opportunity.

The Sydney desal plant is 250ML per day on nominal capacity, double for extended capacity. What ever that means.

Darling River flow at Menindee Lakes is around 100cM/sec or 8.6BL per day.

So basically the desal plan flow is small and more costly than the recycled flow and over time Sydney will consume more and more of the output leaving less for the west, meanwhile the sewer flow ill only increase. So I'd hedge my bets with an increasing supply, not a decreasing supply. At the discharge location build a large lagoon to enable further natural purification as there are towns downstream that use the water supply.

So, let the famers, towns and industry along the rivers have 1-1.5BL per day of additional flow and let the river keep 1BL/day to help restore some of the lost flow by Menindee and lower Murry systems. From Sydney you would have to discharge into multiple rivers to prevent or limit flooding which is better for all anyway.

Having around 1BL per day of water added to the upper Darling tributary from Brisbane certainly will be welcomed by the river and farmers along the river.


Yes I've looked this up before, personal pet project. How would it be funded?
This is something I feel if Australia had a sovereign wealth fund from minerals the profits could be used to pay for stuff like this, plus future water sales to the farmers and industry and provide more reliable and sustainable agriculture out that way.
  Travelling Hooker Locomotive Fireman

Location: Follows the weather up and down the coast
This is all great but what does Warragamaba or desal or water issues in general have to do with the XPT replacement discussion ?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

This is all great but what does Warragamaba or desal or water issues in general have to do with the XPT replacement discussion ?
Travelling Hooker

The discussion is maybe taking a turn to use the XPT's as water trains post replacement!!!!!!!
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU

The discussion is maybe taking a turn to use the XPT's as water trains post replacement!!!!!!!
simstrain


Turn*out*, this is a rail forum! Laughing
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

This is all great but what does Warragamaba or desal or water issues in general have to do with the XPT replacement discussion ?
Travelling Hooker

Quite a lot.  It's all about pushing sh*t uphill.  Smile
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

That is also an option but the desal is already there in Sydney and being paid for regardless and so you only have to connect the west to warragamba.
Warragamba isn't west of the range.

Sydney is paying for the care and maintainance of the desal, not its operation when not in use.

Tap into the waste water, its cheaper and freely available, also significantly more than the desal supply.
RTT_Rules

Warragamba is on the range. It is very easy to get pipes going west from there. Waste water is a good idea as well but desal can be used as drinking water which your not going to do with waste water.

conversely water could be shipped out on the xpt replacement to some of the more far flung places on the network.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Thread off topic, so locked. Two new threads started to continue discussion.


Desal in NSW

https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11399689.htm


Old XPT thread:

https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2143108.htm#2143108


(cannot split such a long and big thread so locked it as stated)

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