Sydney train crowding worsens

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 03 May 2019 16:04
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The issue in Town Hall seems to be the worse area especially when platforms need to be closed to slow down the number of people attempting to use the trains via the city circle.

I am not sure what the answer would be here as there is not a lot of room left at that station for an upgrades and platform lengthening and that would not solve the sheer number of people trying to access to the platforms.

Sydney train crowding worsens

Sponsored advertisement

  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Turn it into a metro , sure fire cure for colds moles and sore ...
  Aurora8 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
According to the Government, the metro will solve this issue.
  jcouch Assistant Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a commuter train
Doesn't help that there's been a renovation at the station that is now into the 3rd year of work!

That said, it's been very obvious the amount of increasing patronage on the trains in the last few years. The very slow roll out of additional services through new track options and ATP has been extremely badly planned. Not necessarily the fault of the current government incumbents, since the long plan and build times means a lot of this should have been started over a decade ago, but they haven't helped it too much.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
The North, Bankstown and Western Metros will all indeed direct traffic away from Townhall station by the late 2020's. None of this will come soon enough.

The govt needs to fast track the Western Metro ASAP, perhaps have the city to Nth Straithfueld open within 5 years, although this alone will not make a huge difference for western traffic.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The issue in Town Hall seems to be the worse area especially when platforms need to be closed to slow down the number of people attempting to use the trains via the city circle.

I am not sure what the answer would be here as there is not a lot of room left at that station for an upgrades and platform lengthening and that would not solve the sheer number of people trying to access to the platforms.

Sydney train crowding worsens
bevans

The solution is the metro. Nothing much can be done aside from maybe platform screen doors for town hall. Getting the trains up to 22-24 an hour would help but that is only short term relief.
  viaprojects Train Controller

screen doors will just kill the transport system for a few weeks ( time to install the doors and testing ) also takes up some platform space which is limited - main reason why staff are stopping passages getting on full platforms / full trains ...

doors on the metro fine as it's a new system ..
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
screen doors will just kill the transport system for a few weeks ( time to install the doors and testing ) also takes up some platform space which is limited - main reason why staff are stopping passages getting on full platforms / full trains ...

doors on the metro fine as it's a new system ..
viaprojects
Most of the platform doors installation could be done at night when the station is closed, after all Singapore did it without closing the stations on the MRT, however I agree it will not solve anything apart from remove the risk of human to moving train interface and reduce the narrow pathways on some platforms even less. From memory the yellow line on one platform is within 1m or so of the wall.

Until the Metro is complete 22 trains per hour should be attempted but I doubt it will achieve much more than that as there simply won't be enough time between train movements to allow the platform to clear.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-03/increase-train-use-by-improving-platform-access/11073132
Makes sense, 160m long stations, some have the entrances at one extreme end only sometimes even past the end of the platform.

Their interesting choice of example Erskinville also shows that out fo Macdonaldtown, Newtown and Erskinville, if the above station access improvement was done, one of these stations could be closed.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Most of the platform doors installation could be done at night when the station is closed, after all Singapore did it without closing the stations on the MRT, however I agree it will not solve anything apart from remove the risk of human to moving train interface and reduce the narrow pathways on some platforms even less. From memory the yellow line on one platform is within 1m or so of the wall.

Until the Metro is complete 22 trains per hour should be attempted but I doubt it will achieve much more than that as there simply won't be enough time between train movements to allow the platform to clear.
RTT_Rules

Platform Screening would do more than you think at Town Hall.  The platforms are so narrow freeing up 0.66m would substantially add to platform capacity, but it would also allow increased movement along the platform and hence a more even load distribution - another of Sydney's problems not entirely unrelated to the article in the link you posted.

The main thing preventing this is the fleet has inconsistent door locations, even between A/B Sets and the NIFs.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Most of the platform doors installation could be done at night when the station is closed, after all Singapore did it without closing the stations on the MRT, however I agree it will not solve anything apart from remove the risk of human to moving train interface and reduce the narrow pathways on some platforms even less. From memory the yellow line on one platform is within 1m or so of the wall.

Until the Metro is complete 22 trains per hour should be attempted but I doubt it will achieve much more than that as there simply won't be enough time between train movements to allow the platform to clear.

Platform Screening would do more than you think at Town Hall.  The platforms are so narrow freeing up 0.66m would substantially add to platform capacity, but it would also allow increased movement along the platform and hence a more even load distribution - another of Sydney's problems not entirely unrelated to the article in the link you posted.

The main thing preventing this is the fleet has inconsistent door locations, even between A/B Sets and the NIFs.
djf01
How does adding platform doors free up 0.66m of space? The doors sit close to the edge but set back a small distance. I suppose if anything people can feel to stand more closely to the train without risk of injury.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Most of the platform doors installation could be done at night when the station is closed, after all Singapore did it without closing the stations on the MRT, however I agree it will not solve anything apart from remove the risk of human to moving train interface and reduce the narrow pathways on some platforms even less. From memory the yellow line on one platform is within 1m or so of the wall.

Until the Metro is complete 22 trains per hour should be attempted but I doubt it will achieve much more than that as there simply won't be enough time between train movements to allow the platform to clear.

Platform Screening would do more than you think at Town Hall.  The platforms are so narrow freeing up 0.66m would substantially add to platform capacity, but it would also allow increased movement along the platform and hence a more even load distribution - another of Sydney's problems not entirely unrelated to the article in the link you posted.

The main thing preventing this is the fleet has inconsistent door locations, even between A/B Sets and the NIFs.
djf01
The PSD's would also allow the trains to enter and exit the station faster to help in getting that 22 trains an hour. The door locations are very similar and not as different as some suspect. There are some trials happening at chatswood with markings but I suspect the main problem is with driver accuracy rather then the trains themselves.
  viaprojects Train Controller

There are some trials happening at chatswood with markings but I suspect the main problem is with driver accuracy rather then the trains themselves.
simstrain


just updating the stop markings to align with the metro ... always happens when a there is a platform change or new rolling stock.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

The PSD's would also allow the trains to enter and exit the station faster to help in getting that 22 trains an hour.
simstrain

I don't think so.  The reverse is true, as precise positioning on the platform needs to be added to the stopping procedure.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

How does adding platform doors free up 0.66m of space? The doors sit close to the edge but set back a small distance. I suppose if anything people can feel to stand more closely to the train without risk of injury.
RTT_Rules

Because the metre next to the platform edge can't be used (safely), and certainly can't have crush load passengers waiting there.  Some Town Hall platforms are so narrow (~3m) the screens would make a significant increase in usable platform space.
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

Why not just have wider PSDs to cater for the different door spacings?  The difference isn't that great anyway.  It's not as though they're going to be opening on the void between the carriages.  It doesn't matter if the wider PSD opening overlaps the train door width.  As sims suggested, the main advantage of the PSDs is to allow faster entry and exit for trains and it also makes it safer for passengers on crowded platforms.  I don't see driver accuracy being a major issue, as the wider PSDs would allow for this margin of error.  From my observation, most seem to get it pretty close to the mark anyway. The roll-out of ATO will address this issue.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Why not just have wider PSDs to cater for the different door spacings?  The difference isn't that great anyway.  It's not as though they're going to be opening on the void between the carriages.  It doesn't matter if the wider PSD opening overlaps the train door width.  As sims suggested, the main advantage of the PSDs is to allow faster entry and exit for trains and it also makes it safer for passengers on crowded platforms.  I don't see driver accuracy being a major issue, as the wider PSDs would allow for this margin of error.  From my observation, most seem to get it pretty close to the mark anyway. The roll-out of ATO will address this issue.
Transtopic
How does the PSD allow the trains to arrive faster? We all know if someone falls on the track as it arrives at the station the person is phucked!

Most of the stations the trains have only a few metres tolerance if that in stopping position, I would suspect PSD would actually slow a train down as the driver needs to be more precise in their stopping position.
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

Why not just have wider PSDs to cater for the different door spacings?  The difference isn't that great anyway.  It's not as though they're going to be opening on the void between the carriages.  It doesn't matter if the wider PSD opening overlaps the train door width.  As sims suggested, the main advantage of the PSDs is to allow faster entry and exit for trains and it also makes it safer for passengers on crowded platforms.  I don't see driver accuracy being a major issue, as the wider PSDs would allow for this margin of error.  From my observation, most seem to get it pretty close to the mark anyway. The roll-out of ATO will address this issue.
How does the PSD allow the trains to arrive faster? We all know if someone falls on the track as it arrives at the station the person is phucked!

Most of the stations the trains have only a few metres tolerance if that in stopping position, I would suspect PSD would actually slow a train down as the driver needs to be more precise in their stopping position.
RTT_Rules
With PSDs and ATO, the trains such as the Waratahs could safely utilise their full potential acceleration/deceleration performance.  You may beg to differ, but that's just your opinion.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
With PSDs and ATO, the trains such as the Waratahs could safely utilise their full potential acceleration/deceleration performance.  You may beg to differ, but that's just your opinion.
Transtopic
So your telling me that trains accelerate and brake is limited incase someone falls on to the tracks or against the train?

From casual observation I would not have thought there was much difference if any with a train leaving a Red signal on the tracks away from a station.

Also there is a video I believe in this thread of DD's and Metro's arriving/leaving Chatswood station in unison, again I would not have said there was any difference.

But if you are telling me you know the DD's are capped for this reason then fair enough.
  matthewg Train Controller

The entire Sydney DD fleet was slowed down some years ago to make the timetable more reliable. Drivers could keep to diagram even in the old S sets by only using half the available power.

The electronic drive trains can out accelerate the camshaft trains but have been programmed to match them. Changing this to increase the acceleration rate doe have an impact on power consumption - the substations and the feeders have all been profiled for the current rates of power consumption.

But the current government is little interested in anything thing that would generally improve the performance of the DD fleet, as it would undermine their case to convert/build 'Metro' lines.

However, ATO (for closer train spacing) and PSDs in the city circle may be forced simply to increase the capacity of the city circle in a reasonable time frame.
I'm sure their preferred option would be to build another GoA4 Metro line, that's time-consuming and expensive.
And once Joe Public gets a load of those low seat count Metro trains, the Government is going to have to work just that bit harder on the PR side.
The technology might be 'amazing', but passenger comfort has been 'tossed out the window'.

There are a number of Japanese suburban lines where the train is driven manually, but they have 'auto-brake' on station approach - so the train set accurately lines up with the platform doors. This system is even fitted to the Dubai trams so that the trams stop accurately with the station doors. The tram hits the outer beacon for the station and initiates automatic station approach.

But all this technology and Metro vs DD is all moot as the main problem is poor passenger discipline mostly around the obstruction of the doors. I'm sure some people won't be happy till trains look something like an old BR Class 423 slam-door with a dozen doors down the side of the coach. There will be no longer any space inside for any seating at all, as the entire side of the train will be doors.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Why not just have wider PSDs to cater for the different door spacings?  The difference isn't that great anyway.  It's not as though they're going to be opening on the void between the carriages.
Transtopic

I'm actually a fan of PSDs, but I'm unconvinced they can be reasonably implemented on the Sydney network, at least not in a way that doesn't create more safety and capacity issues than it resolves.

The automated system(s) with PSDs that I've used all added 2-5 sec to the dwell as the train slows to sub walking pace, then inches it's way to the correct door location.  

The NIFs having all 10m decks means there is a 0.5m to 1.0m variance in the door location between these and the A/B sets - assuming they are built to A/B Set lengths no H Sets lengths.  

IIRC there was a bungle in the SPEC of the A/B set's length specification (probably body length vs over coupler length) making an 8 car train 1.0m - 1.5m longer than an equivalent pair of H sets.

All this means the door location will need to vary by about 1m between trains - regardless of how precisely they are parked.  (I'm kinda assuming Sector 3 here with an all A/B/NIF fleet).

The other issue is the screens will need to be physically set back from the trains to accommodate the outward opening plug doors, in addition to our already large platform gap thanks to the eclectic - and constantly changing - loading gauge.

IMHO there is great scope for PAX to get caught between the train and the PSDs if it's attempted in Sydney.  And when this occurs, no-one will be able to see it.  

Someone could be waiting on the platform to board - probably unsuccessfully - at the side of the train door, but fouling the PSD,  and potentially be knocked into the gap between the train and platform, especially of the platform is crowded and they literally have nowhere else to go.

In any case, like most proposals, it's worth asking "what problem are we solving here?"

The obvious answer is that the platforms are too crowded.

There are some equally obvious alternate solutions to this issue:
- larger platforms
- better ingress/egress capabilities
- lower (ie less increase in) train loadings
- more frequent services

But when all else fails, just blame the victims/passengers.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The PSD's would also allow the trains to enter and exit the station faster to help in getting that 22 trains an hour.

I don't think so.  The reverse is true, as precise positioning on the platform needs to be added to the stopping procedure.
djf01
I think so. The trains dawdle in to the station box in the underground at the moment because of the overcrowding. ATO is actually being installed on the 4G trains and so it might be possible for the computer to take over at central, town hall and wynyard in the future.
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

Put a barrier up on the Eastern subs platforms on town hall. Trains should not stop there. Rather, they should continue through to Martin Place through an alternative tunnel. Use the vacancy to expand the city circle platforms.
  sunnyyan Station Staff

I've noticed that the need for precise stopping position already slows down services as they are now. I travel through Museum a lot and I've noticed that drivers do tend to pull in slower as the platform is just long enough for the train. (I've had a few times where the last door hangs off the platform a little) I think Town Hall's platforms are slightly longer, so I don't think needing to line up the train with screen doors will take much longer, so PSDs won't do much about dwells.
However, I do think that PSDs are still required at Town Hall just for safety reasons. The platform is actually way too narrow, with no room to walk within the yellow line if there are people standing.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
According to the Government, the metro will solve this issue.
Aurora8
I doubt replacing larger trains with smaller ones covering the same distances would solve this.

Why not just have wider PSDs to cater for the different door spacings?  The difference isn't that great anyway.  It's not as though they're going to be opening on the void between the carriages.  It doesn't matter if the wider PSD opening overlaps the train door width.  As sims suggested, the main advantage of the PSDs is to allow faster entry and exit for trains and it also makes it safer for passengers on crowded platforms.  I don't see driver accuracy being a major issue, as the wider PSDs would allow for this margin of error.  From my observation, most seem to get it pretty close to the mark anyway. The roll-out of ATO will address this issue.
Transtopic
Or have platform dynamic doors, where different parts of each door open according to the position of doors on the train.

Sponsored advertisement

Subscribers: RTT_Rules, Transtopic

Display from: