XPT replacement thread 2019

 
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

I think this mistake will be repeated with the CAF. I can't see all the promises made of added rail services kept, as there won't be enough rolling stock. As I have said previously, the state election is over, and Gladys's team has stopped playing pretend.

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  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I think this mistake will be repeated with the CAF. I can't see all the promises made of added rail services kept, as there won't be enough rolling stock. As I have said previously, the state election is over, and Gladys's team has stopped playing pretend.
ANR

There will be enough rolling stock and the Xplorers and Endeavours don't actually need to be scrapped yet and still have life in them to do certain jobs such as the hunter line and bomaderry.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
I think this mistake will be repeated with the CAF. I can't see all the promises made of added rail services kept, as there won't be enough rolling stock. As I have said previously, the state election is over, and Gladys's team has stopped playing pretend.
ANR
Sims pretty much said it above, only the XPT stock is to be retired and from previous discussion if anything there are excess XPL's left over. So plenty of options to do what ever.

EDIT: and heaven forbid people actually use the new trains, what is stopping the govt buying more? They seemed to have got that sorted out with Sydney Rolling stock, ie B-sets and even some XPT cars and locos were bought later on to expand the network.

On your reference to the election and commitments. I know people are unhappy that this LNP govt is actually repeatedly achieving and doing what they said they would do with regards to PT. Its a new era for many, so much money spent on rail PT in last 8 years, more than last 18 years Australia wide just in NSW alone. Govt announces, some fine tuning and govt does. Even if you don't like the actual final solution, just wait a few years and you can actually see their proposal in action.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

It is obvious that there are not enough trains in the New Regional Fleet Project to provide any additional services, and replace all XPT/XPL/END trains. The existing Hunter and new CAF fleets will be stretched, so unless new or extended contracts are awarded, some of the ageing trains will surely be required to remain in service. These new trains are still 4 years away, by which time the XPL/END will be up to 30 years old. Putting that into perspective, some of the existing XPT fleet is currently only 25 years old.
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

Is there any reason the existing XPT fleet cannot be repurposed? Couldn't it be used for specific corridors? Why scrap it if there are enough spares etc?
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Is there any reason the existing XPT fleet cannot be repurposed? Couldn't it be used for specific corridors? Why scrap it if there are enough spares etc?
ANR
The last cars for the XPT arrived at the same time as the XPL/END cars, ie '93 - '95, so the statement by NSWRcars is not entirely correct.

When the new trains come 2023, the oldest XPT cars will be right on the magic 40-42 years that seems to be very common in the rail industry. The younger cars, not sure on exactly how many will make up a small part of fleet and not worth stuffing around with from the NSW govt point of view. Retire the entire fleet and put it up for auction and let some 3rd world nation run the train into the ground scavenging parts from one car to another.

The CAF sets appear to take over the rural network on a like for like basis, ie no extra services along with many of the commuter services by the END

So the govt will have
- 7 x 3 car XPL sets and 1 x 2 car XLP set, 8 sets or 23 cars in total now no longer required from the current combined XPT/XPL roster.
- What ever number of spare END cars that are displaced on a like for like basis.

Assuming all the spare END cars simply get redeployed back into commuter service and even the odd XPL car. The govt is likely to have up to ~15 spare XPL cars to enhance the NSW rural network in some way shape of form.

Any concerns about no extra services should be dismissed, the only issue being, who gets the older END cars?

The END and XPL fleet will be due for retirement by 2033, so their future in NSW is limited post CAF anyway.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

It is worth noting that the only new services promised at this time are an additional Griffith service and and extra Bathurst Bullet. These services can be easily accommodated by the CAFs in 4 years time, but I don’t see how the contract can possibly cover any further services except between Bathurst & Dubbo.

Side note and slightly off-topic: The new Griffith service this year makes that XPL set fully utilised (BH & Griffith) and unavailable to cover for failures. I have no idea how the second Bathurst Bullet can be delivered. Anyone?
  a6et Minister for Railways

Is there any reason the existing XPT fleet cannot be repurposed? Couldn't it be used for specific corridors? Why scrap it if there are enough spares etc?
The last cars for the XPT arrived at the same time as the XPL/END cars, ie '93 - '95, so the statement by NSWRcars is not entirely correct.

When the new trains come 2023, the oldest XPT cars will be right on the magic 40-42 years that seems to be very common in the rail industry. The younger cars, not sure on exactly how many will make up a small part of fleet and not worth stuffing around with from the NSW govt point of view. Retire the entire fleet and put it up for auction and let some 3rd world nation run the train into the ground scavenging parts from one car to another.

The CAF sets appear to take over the rural network on a like for like basis, ie no extra services along with many of the commuter services by the END

So the govt will have
- 7 x 3 car XPL sets and 1 x 2 car XLP set, 8 sets or 23 cars in total now no longer required from the current combined XPT/XPL roster.
- What ever number of spare END cars that are displaced on a like for like basis.

Assuming all the spare END cars simply get redeployed back into commuter service and even the odd XPL car. The govt is likely to have up to ~15 spare XPL cars to enhance the NSW rural network in some way shape of form.

Any concerns about no extra services should be dismissed, the only issue being, who gets the older END cars?

The END and XPL fleet will be due for retirement by 2033, so their future in NSW is limited post CAF anyway.
RTT_Rules
When they arrive and I suspect the present government would be looking for the first XPT replacement set (at least one) to be in service as early as possible in 2023 as they will be wanting them running in time for the next election which is to be held in 2023.

What I envisage is a similar publicity run of one of the sets, in the same way as was done with the original XPT's and publicity runs, even through the City circle again.  Once in place and crews have been trained for them, then they will likely be placed on a roster to travel to each destination they are intended for, especially the regions, more than likely on the regular trains currently operated by the XPT sets.

As for the old XPT sets, I would not be surprised if the power units that were ordered in the last batch when the Melbourne O/night services were along with enough of the newest and better carriages condition wise could well be kept as stand by's or for additional services, such as the Parkes Elvis trains, without interrupting the regular serviced trains.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

It is worth noting that the only new services promised at this time are an additional Griffith service and and extra Bathurst Bullet. These services can be easily accommodated by the CAFs in 4 years time, but I don’t see how the contract can possibly cover any further services except between Bathurst & Dubbo.

Side note and slightly off-topic: The new Griffith service this year makes that XPL set fully utilised (BH & Griffith) and unavailable to cover for failures. I have no idea how the second Bathurst Bullet can be delivered. Anyone?
NSWRcars

There are 14 Endeavours, 6 required for the Highlands, 1 for the South Coast and 1 for the current bullet.  1 rotated out for regular heavy maintenance and another spares hulk (possibly).  That's 10 (or 9) of 14 at Everleigh.

I was under the impression the Hunter had, and needed at least 4.

The timetable runs up to 7 concurrent trains: 4 running the peak load Telarah/Maitland to Wickham every 30 minutes, 2 to Scone and 1 to Dungog (go Dougie!).  There are 7 hunter sets, which means 6 available for use.

I thought at least one, probably two of the services beyond Maitland were 4 car.  Perhaps they once were.  But they arn't now.  Using @jxeeno's AnyTrip (https://anytrip.com.au/) it would seem there are now no 4 car trains on the Hunter line.  Typically there is one, and only one, endeavour set operating in the Hunter at any one time.  With 1 rotated out for maintenance - and possibly a spares hulk - at most 3 are needed in the Hunter, meaning there is probably a set available from there, perhaps even 2.  

One of the extra benefits of Newcastle LRT I guess.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
When they arrive and I suspect the present government would be looking for the first XPT replacement set (at least one) to be in service as early as possible in 2023 as they will be wanting them running in time for the next election which is to be held in 2023.

What I envisage is a similar publicity run of one of the sets, in the same way as was done with the original XPT's and publicity runs, even through the City circle again.  Once in place and crews have been trained for them, then they will likely be placed on a roster to travel to each destination they are intended for, especially the regions, more than likely on the regular trains currently operated by the XPT sets.

As for the old XPT sets, I would not be surprised if the power units that were ordered in the last batch when the Melbourne O/night services were along with enough of the newest and better carriages condition wise could well be kept as stand by's or for additional services, such as the Parkes Elvis trains, without interrupting the regular serviced trains.
a6et
I have a twisted vision of buying the whole XPT fleet (with my $50M lotto win) updating the sleepers, 1st class seaters, buffet car by replacing the seats with tables and converting one EC into a lounge/bar car and running 8 car + 2 locos tours across the country that will of course be heavily patronised.

On the CAF roll out, I suspect there will just a tour of regional NSW, empty, maybe with local short return runs and a show and tell in Central. All over 2 weeks as part of the infrastructure clearance testing.

Then progressively the CAF's will be rolled out on each service on any revised timetable. There will be no overlap on any one service with the XPT as this creates a booking nightmare.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The Xplorers don't need a spares hulk to scavenge since all parts are still actively available for the Endeavour / Xplorer fleet. So while the government is announcing the new regional fleet is replacing XPT, Xplorer and Endeavour there is still life in the Xplorer and Endeavour especially if they are not being used as much as they currently are. For instance post the CAF fleet the endeavours could do Lithgow to Bathurst locals or even orange to lithgow local services.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

The Xplorers don't need a spares hulk to scavenge since all parts are still actively available for the Endeavour / Xplorer fleet. So while the government is announcing the new regional fleet is replacing XPT, Xplorer and Endeavour there is still life in the Xplorer and Endeavour especially if they are not being used as much as they currently are. For instance post the CAF fleet the endeavours could do Lithgow to Bathurst locals or even orange to lithgow local services.
simstrain
My information (ie memory of previous Railpage posts) is the Bullet was formed by repairing, then putting the Everleigh spare's hulk back into the fleet rotation.

I was under the impression that at least 2 of the peak Hunter trains were 4 car, meaning the timetable needed 9 concurrently operating sets to fulfill, from 7 hunters and 4 Endeavours.

As for Endorers continuing beyond the CAFS, I expect it will happen, but I don't believe for one second this has been planned.  

The CAF fleet is a near complete like-for-like replacement.  At some point(s) in the order process, two of the Endeavour replacements have been switched to an Explorer replacement fitout: presumably for the the Bullet, and later the new Bullet.

The exert from the contract I posted shows the operational plan will cover the shortfall of CAF Endeavour set equivalents created by having maintenance at Dubbo, (and by converting 2 to Xplorer CAF equivalents) by not stationing any at Newcastle.

I find the idea that 2 or 3 working endeavour sets will be retained/maintained out of Everleigh indefinitely just for the Nowra run highly unlikely - or at least unlikely that anyone has *planned* to do this.  Though I can see it as an almost inevitable fallback if the new long crossing loop is built and Nowra gets it's 30m freq service (possible), there is no electrification (probably) and more "new" CAF services are promised elsewhere.
  a6et Minister for Railways

It is worth noting that the only new services promised at this time are an additional Griffith service and and extra Bathurst Bullet. These services can be easily accommodated by the CAFs in 4 years time, but I don’t see how the contract can possibly cover any further services except between Bathurst & Dubbo.

Side note and slightly off-topic: The new Griffith service this year makes that XPL set fully utilised (BH & Griffith) and unavailable to cover for failures. I have no idea how the second Bathurst Bullet can be delivered. Anyone?

There are 14 Endeavours, 6 required for the Highlands, 1 for the South Coast and 1 for the current bullet.  1 rotated out for regular heavy maintenance and another spares hulk (possibly).  That's 10 (or 9) of 14 at Everleigh.

I was under the impression the Hunter had, and needed at least 4.

The timetable runs up to 7 concurrent trains: 4 running the peak load Telarah/Maitland to Wickham every 30 minutes, 2 to Scone and 1 to Dungog (go Dougie!).  There are 7 hunter sets, which means 6 available for use.

I thought at least one, probably two of the services beyond Maitland were 4 car.  Perhaps they once were.  But they arn't now.  Using @jxeeno's AnyTrip (https://anytrip.com.au/) it would seem there are now no 4 car trains on the Hunter line.  Typically there is one, and only one, endeavour set operating in the Hunter at any one time.  With 1 rotated out for maintenance - and possibly a spares hulk - at most 3 are needed in the Hunter, meaning there is probably a set available from there, perhaps even 2.  

One of the extra benefits of Newcastle LRT I guess.
djf01
There are at least two operating during the week, weekends & Public Holidays only provide an hourly service to Telerah, not sure that the Singleton/Scone services operate outside of the weekdays.

The need for two sets I witness M-F is that a Down Telerah  & UP Telerah service arrive at Victoria St at similar times, bus connections always leaves before either service arrives.

As for 4 car trains, have not seen one in our 18 months up here.  In the two peak hours especially the morning Up trains between 0700 -0817 many of those trains are standing room only, with many having bicycles it can be very tight at least until Warabrook.

As for the benefit of the LR, that is quite debatable really as far as times are concerned. By the time you get off the Harry services walk down to the tram and wait for it to go, a Harry service would be leaving Civic (at least).  Those who travel to Stockton, have a stop nearer, also they terminate closer to the beach, both of which are advantages.

Thing is there is still road closures when the trams arrive/depart from Wickham, also if you are to catch a bus on Hunter St, you have double the distance to walk.
  a6et Minister for Railways

When they arrive and I suspect the present government would be looking for the first XPT replacement set (at least one) to be in service as early as possible in 2023 as they will be wanting them running in time for the next election which is to be held in 2023.

What I envisage is a similar publicity run of one of the sets, in the same way as was done with the original XPT's and publicity runs, even through the City circle again.  Once in place and crews have been trained for them, then they will likely be placed on a roster to travel to each destination they are intended for, especially the regions, more than likely on the regular trains currently operated by the XPT sets.

As for the old XPT sets, I would not be surprised if the power units that were ordered in the last batch when the Melbourne O/night services were along with enough of the newest and better carriages condition wise could well be kept as stand by's or for additional services, such as the Parkes Elvis trains, without interrupting the regular serviced trains.
I have a twisted vision of buying the whole XPT fleet (with my $50M lotto win) updating the sleepers, 1st class seaters, buffet car by replacing the seats with tables and converting one EC into a lounge/bar car and running 8 car + 2 locos tours across the country that will of course be heavily patronised.

On the CAF roll out, I suspect there will just a tour of regional NSW, empty, maybe with local short return runs and a show and tell in Central. All over 2 weeks as part of the infrastructure clearance testing.

Then progressively the CAF's will be rolled out on each service on any revised timetable. There will be no overlap on any one service with the XPT as this creates a booking nightmare.
RTT_Rules
I'm not in total disagreement with you on this, no doubt in my mind that the first set to arrive will be used as publicity, remembering that the government will want at least one in service before the next election in order for the usual propaganda. Also, the drivers will be put in to the training schedules of ground tuition, and then used on each line in familiarising with them.

We did 3 days at Meeks Road in ground training, before doing driving trials, this may be the case with the new trains, much would possibly similar but the areas that are part of the check procedures - failure and fault findings was quite a bit and the new ones with newer technologies will be all part of the training.  Could be shorter ground training depending on the portability aspect of how similar the two types are.

I am not sure how the current fleet diagrams work these days, but once there is two full sets available they can put them on a set roster, my thinking is that the first ones to be chosen will be the Brisbane service and the Melbourne ones. They are readily available for each trip owing to the time gaps in Sydney on their returns.  Somewhere in the early mix will see the Casino service slotted in.

Having the new trains on the longest runs first up is the ideal situation.  Once the Dubbo facility is opened, I would say the up Casino service would be used for a late Dubbo service for the maintenance schedule. Back the next morning ready for O/night Melbourne.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

Having the new trains on the longest runs first up is the ideal situation.  Once the Dubbo facility is opened, I would say the up Casino service would be used for a late Dubbo service for the maintenance schedule. Back the next morning ready for O/night Melbourne.
a6et
The Dubbo facility will be required and open from Day 1, for final fitout and to commission the trains. It’s a major component of the contract. The first runs for the trains will surely be between Dubbo and Sydney.
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

Looks like the central west XPT was again replaced by XPL today.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Only the Dubbo XPT is independent of all others so expect this to be a natural first especially with the Dubbo MTCE facility.

Then if I recall the rest the XPT are two intertwined schedules of completing one service and going to a different route.

However Canberra will I firmly believe next. This needs two sets, keeps them close to home while commissioning continues.

Next will be the NW.

Then North Coast (more voters on thos popular corridor), the Melbourne and the rest.

Pin this for 2023 and see how badly my prediction goes....????
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Then if I recall the rest the XPT are two intertwined schedules of completing one service and going to a different route.
RTT_Rules

I reckon the first route will be the Bathurst Bullet - once they have 2 (short) CAFs commissioned.

Then Dubbo XPT when they commission the first long CAF - the "spare" short one can cover this route if need be.  

Once they have 3 long CAFs in service, then they can start putting them into the East Coast XPT rotation.  

I was thinking they would do Brisbane and Melbourne last due to the sleepers issue, but the way the XPT timetable works means once route's set cascades onto the next.  So initially - once they have 3 in service - each service that currently has and XPT will get 1 of 7 per week as a CAF.  Then 2 of 7 and so on.

This cycle will have to change somewhat for the NW to get a long CAF while Grafton gets a short one.

The NW will be interesting as Armidale is set to get a Long CAF, which will need to work with a Short CAF to Werris Creek for the Moree route.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Then if I recall the rest the XPT are two intertwined schedules of completing one service and going to a different route.

I reckon the first route will be the Bathurst Bullet - once they have 2 (short) CAFs commissioned.

Then Dubbo XPT when they commission the first long CAF - the "spare" short one can cover this route if need be.  

Once they have 3 long CAFs in service, then they can start putting them into the East Coast XPT rotation.  

I was thinking they would do Brisbane and Melbourne last due to the sleepers issue, but the way the XPT timetable works means once route's set cascades onto the next.  So initially - once they have 3 in service - each service that currently has and XPT will get 1 of 7 per week as a CAF.  Then 2 of 7 and so on.

This cycle will have to change somewhat for the NW to get a long CAF while Grafton gets a short one.

The NW will be interesting as Armidale is set to get a Long CAF, which will need to work with a Short CAF to Werris Creek for the Moree route.
djf01
Armidale should not pose any problems as it was set up for XPT refuelling and stabled there overnight, in its own siding, same as with the Grafton service.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The NW will be interesting as Armidale is set to get a Long CAF, which will need to work with a Short CAF to Werris Creek for the Moree route.
djf01


Why would the NW get a long train for when that service is designed to split at werris creek. and so it will be made up of 2 x 3 car sets most likely.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller


This cycle will have to change somewhat for the NW to get a long CAF while Grafton gets a short one.
djf01
Isn’t the Grafton XPT independent of the others, with no sleeper? Or does it convey an XAM empty?
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

Why would the NW get a long train for when that service is designed to split at werris creek. and so it will be made up of 2 x 3 car sets most likely.
simstrain
Armidale is already often a 4 car XPL; a 3 car CAF will have lower capacity, especially with 40 percent Premium 2+1 seating.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

The NW will be interesting as Armidale is set to get a Long CAF, which will need to work with a Short CAF to Werris Creek for the Moree route.


Why would the NW get a long train for when that service is designed to split at werris creek. and so it will be made up of 2 x 3 car sets most likely.
simstrain
Dunno.  But that's whats in the contract apparently.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner


This cycle will have to change somewhat for the NW to get a long CAF while Grafton gets a short one.Isn’t the Grafton XPT independent of the others, with no sleeper? Or does it convey an XAM empty?
NSWRcars

Dunno this either.  My understanding is 7 sets are needed to fulfil the timetable (ignoring the Dubbo route which has it's own short XPT set).

The Grafton XPT is the 3rd departure for the day at 11:40, and has to be operated by the set from either 034 (ex Bris - 07:01 arrival) or 622 (ex Melb - 06:59 arrival).

The inbound Grafton XPT is the 3rd Arrival of the day at 14:41, and needs to be recycled for 621 (to Melb - 20:42 departure).

I don't know, but I imagine the XAMs are either left empty, or when heavily booked as FC seating on the Grafton XPT.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

I will have to defer to those in the know, but I thought the Casino XPT was the one that cycled with Melb and Bris; Grafton being separate.
NSWRcars

All I know is whats in the published timetable.

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