Locos X41 and X42, PN loco scrapping at South Dynon

 
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
http://imgur.com/z55s5ro
Dangersdan707
Many will not get this meme, DD.

Sponsored advertisement

  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
2,309 km of broad gauge railway left in this state and just 60 locomotives to run it. What a travesty.
potatoinmymouth
The other side to this is if the locomotives are reducing, why not reduce the length of BG track (ie standardise).....
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
And the third side of the coin - is there enough work for even 60 locomotives?   Probably not.
  Galron Chief Commissioner

Location: Werribee, Vic
2,309 km of broad gauge railway left in this state and just 60 locomotives to run it. What a travesty.
The other side to this is if the locomotives are reducing, why not reduce the length of BG track (ie standardise).....
james.au
That is happening. still a chunk of the north west standardisation project to finish. You can bet conversion seymour to Tocumwal will happen in the next 5-8 years. possibly even down to Walan. May be some duel gauge go in to bendigo from the north in similar time frame as well. the rest of the network there's no point to convert, with gippsland and warnabool the only lines carying any freight.
  ADB Station Master

What does SSR intend to do with the Ps? I'm asking because I keep hearing that sub-3000HP locomotives are old hat, but every time PN or V/Line retire a T, P or H, they seem to get snapped up rather than sent to Sims.
I can't speak for SSR's intentions when it comes to the Ps they just bought off V/Line, but based on past decisions they and other 'small players' have made (as well as the attitudes of V/Line and PacNat) I think I can make these points with confidence:
  • V/Line's decision to flog off the Ps is pretty transparent: they were surplus to requirements once the need to run push-pull H sets for interurban services went away. Ns (and A66 Laughing) are taking up the slack hauling consolidated H sets and VLocitys are doing a fair bit of that push-pull work too. The Ps still have some residual value so they could make money selling them to an operator instead of a scrap merchant.
  • PacNat's decision to scrap those 'larger' locomotives (A/X/S) is partly because they have no immediate nor future value as BG motive power for them and partly because those locos would be still competitive for hauling mainline BG freight trains with another operator - particularly if one of those operators has a pretty comprehensive diesel loco workshop backing them up. This is further backed up by the sales caveats that were applied to X37 when it went to the Seymour Rail Heritage Centre (passenger service only, no commercial hire)
  • Likewise, PacNat sold those Y/P/H class locos to Ettamogah because they had no value to mainline freight competitors. The days of 5+ T class lashups on freighters is coming to an end - ditto the Ps (although I don't think Ps were ever used in that way, thankfully). It's an unreliable setup and it chugs fuel like men in tinnies chug beers. Hs and Ys are even worse for mainline freight running as they're low-speed shunting locos. Ettamogah want(ed?) to use those locos for shunting and shortline-style 'road switching' operations. And you'll find that they still probably have similar 'non-compete' clauses in the sales contracts like X37 does.
  • When the Greentrains/Coote Industrial leasing fleet was up for grabs, SSR grabbed it - because it was an open sale (no PacNat caveats) and they're happy to keep running old but still reasonably powerful locos on their lashups.

Why did SSR buy those Ps from V/Line? We won't really know until they start running them on revenue-earning trains. My guess is that it's got something to do with their 'departmental train' contracts (dead-hauling X'Traps, rail trains and so on). Head End Power can be useful for those sorts of jobs.
LancedDendrite
Thanks for that (although I would question just how much life PN's A- and 2nd Series X-class had left in them). SSR using their Ps on "departmental trains" makes sense - they already have three T-class, but maybe they want to free up B75, which sometimes does this task, too? As you say, time will tell.

I'm glad you brought up Ettamogah Rail Hub. I get that ERH is a rail siding and loading facility, but do they have a business on the side as a loco hire outfit, or something? They've done up P22 (now with SRHC), two H-class (used by 707 Ops), but the only loco they seem to use themselves is a Y-class (or two) for shunting container flats around.

When you say short-line "road switching" ops, does that refer to a service pulling one or a few wagons from local sidings and consolidating them into a rake at Ettamogah, to attach to a passing superfreighter? (and is this the same as a "hook and pull service"?) I'd heard that ERH had wanted to get into this side of things, but nothing much seems to have come of it. Maybe the plans fell through and they decided to hire out done-up Ps and Hs?????

And what's the deal with them buying three 3rd Series X-class? Even if the "switching" ops came about, wouldn't an X-class (or three) be overkill for the job?

Ettamogah Rail Hub: an enigma wrapped in a mystery. Can anyone enlighten?
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
http://imgur.com/z55s5ro
Many will not get this meme, DD.
james.au
Impossible! Everyone knows About Freight Australia and how they were swallowed by PN
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
http://imgur.com/z55s5ro
Many will not get this meme, DD.
Impossible! Everyone knows About Freight Australia and how they were swallowed by PN
Dangersdan707

Finally!
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
I feel a little sad with this outcome.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Trapped in a meeting with Rhonda and Karsten
I'm glad you brought up Ettamogah Rail Hub. I get that ERH is a rail siding and loading facility, but do they have a business on the side as a loco hire outfit, or something? They've done up P22 (now with SRHC), two H-class (used by 707 Ops), but the only loco they seem to use themselves is a Y-class (or two) for shunting container flats around.

When you say short-line "road switching" ops, does that refer to a service pulling one or a few wagons from local sidings and consolidating them into a rake at Ettamogah, to attach to a passing superfreighter? (and is this the same as a "hook and pull service"?) I'd heard that ERH had wanted to get into this side of things, but nothing much seems to have come of it. Maybe the plans fell through and they decided to hire out done-up Ps and Hs?????
ADB
The extra locos Col Rees (Ettamogah Rail Hub owner) purchased from PacNat were related to to some degree to his Regional Connect venture, which is appears to be in 'go-slow' mode (probably something to do with the NSW drought). Regional Connect would build a big business/logistics park at Widgelli on the outskirts of Griffith and offer rail-based container transport services as part of that. Essentially it's the same idea as Ettamogah Rail Hub with the proposed Albury Nexus industrial precinct, or SCT at Wodonga Logic (Barnawartha), but a bit more tightly integrated.

In terms of rail operations, Regional Connect would do road-switching with the Melbourne-Sydney ARTC line by sending and picking up rakes of container flats from ARTC sidings (Junee or Cootamundra) and hauling them from/to the Widgelli Rail Hub (which would be co-located with the business park). Hence the need for a larger loco fleet - eventually. PacNat was getting rid of that fleet at North Geelong so it made sense to snaffle them up for a good price now and use them later on.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

When you say short-line "road switching" ops, does that refer to a service pulling one or a few wagons from local sidings and consolidating them into a rake at Ettamogah, to attach to a passing superfreighter? (and is this the same as a "hook and pull service"?) I'd heard that ERH had wanted to get into this side of things, but nothing much seems to have come of it. Maybe the plans fell through and they decided to hire out done-up Ps and Hs?????
ADB
Broadly, yes.

"Hook and pull" is different, it is where an operator has a train but not the locomotives to operate it. They contract another operator to provide locomotives which they couple to the front of the train (hook) and the driver/s to run it (pull).

The best known example is Great Southern Rail, who get PN to haul their trains. You could probably categorise EMU transfers as a hook and pull job, but some might argue over the semantics of that.
  DL_Daily Locomotive Driver

In terms of rail operations, Regional Connect would do road-switching with the Melbourne-Sydney ARTC line by sending and picking up rakes of container flats from ARTC sidings (Junee or Cootamundra) and hauling them from/to the Widgelli Rail Hub (which would be co-located with the business park). Hence the need for a larger loco fleet - eventually. PacNat was getting rid of that fleet at North Geelong so it made sense to snaffle them up for a good price now and use them later on.
LancedDendrite

I do believe that Rail Connect (Widgelli) is not going ahead after reading about 5 shires getting together to talk about Wumbulgal WRIFT late April early May and pushing for some sort of funding.
  ADB Station Master

In terms of rail operations, Regional Connect would do road-switching with the Melbourne-Sydney ARTC line by sending and picking up rakes of container flats from ARTC sidings (Junee or Cootamundra) and hauling them from/to the Widgelli Rail Hub (which would be co-located with the business park). Hence the need for a larger loco fleet - eventually. PacNat was getting rid of that fleet at North Geelong so it made sense to snaffle them up for a good price now and use them later on.

I do believe that Rail Connect (Widgelli) is not going ahead after reading about 5 shires getting together to talk about Wumbulgal WRIFT late April early May and pushing for some sort of funding.
DL_Daily

Interesting. Would that mean Rail Connect's X-class (and others) are now surplus to requirements?

And thank-you, "Lance" and "Justapassenger". Very informative. I'd assumed that Railconnect were going to pull small consists from sidings along the Sydney-Melbourne line into ERH, because a PN (or whoever) interstater won't do multiple stops, but after a crash-course in NSW geography, the "road-switching" terminology now makes sense.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW

  • PacNat's decision to scrap those 'larger' locomotives (A/X/S) is partly because they have no immediate nor future value as BG motive power for them and partly because those locos would be still competitive for hauling mainline BG freight trains with another operator - particularly if one of those operators has a pretty comprehensive diesel loco workshop backing them up.
LancedDendrite
I wonder if the anti-competition provisions would have some impact here.  Any armchair lawyers want to comment?

https://www.accc.gov.au/business/anti-competitive-behaviour
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
So PN have 20 surplus clapped out locos that are worth more as scrap.  Why should they be forced to sell them to another operator?  The locos are their locos and can do with them how they please.   Are they stopping another operator from purchasing or building their own?
  ngarner Junior Train Controller

Location: Seville
So PN have 20 surplus clapped out locos that are worth more as scrap.  Why should they be forced to sell them to another operator?  The locos are their locos and can do with them how they please.   Are they stopping another operator from purchasing or building their own?
Donald
Remember that these X class were built in 1970, that makes them 49 years old this year.
The A's were rebuilt in the mid 1980's, just under 35 years ago now, from B class that were already just over 30 years old then making the frames and some other parts 65 years old!
Either way, they're old and, realistically, how long can you expect a machine to last?
The fuel efficiency and maintenance costs for equipment that old could be sufficient reason for scrapping them, not that I'm all in favour of getting rid of them, but I can see PN's point of view in doing so

Neil
  bartaxr8 Junior Train Controller

Realistically speaking, what are the chances some parts from the scrapped A class could be secured for A60 or A62 IF required?

Is the fate of A71 and A78 the same as the rest of the Pacific National A class?
  davesvline Chief Commissioner

Location: 1983-1998
IIRC, the majority of parts from the A/N are similar if not the same?

But, that's another thread as this has nothing to do with  X41/42.

In actual fact, the thread title should probably be updated to 'PN loco scrapping at South Dynon'. This would encompass all the locos they've chopped up here including the 4 A class earlier in the year, and locos after X41/42.

Regards
  max_thum Station Master

Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Realistically speaking, what are the chances some parts from the scrapped A class could be secured for A60 or A62 IF required?

Is the fate of A71 and A78 the same as the rest of the Pacific National A class?
bartaxr8
Unfortunately unlikely for getting parts A60-62 from the scrapped PN A's. Most of them had been seized and parted ahead of time. A71 is parted to the extent where nothing major remains except for the 645 engine.

What I've heard is that A60-62 will be sourcing parts from either A70 or new EMD 645 parts.
  Fatty Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
A71 was moved into position for scrapping today.
  ADB Station Master

A71 was moved into position for scrapping today.
Fatty

On her own? Maybe S306 (stored with A71, and X41 etc before they met the torch) is set to avoid the chop?
  Fatty Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
A71 was moved into position for scrapping today.

On her own? Maybe S306 (stored with A71, and X41 etc before they met the torch) is set to avoid the chop?
ADB
Yes, S306 was sold at the last minute to a heritage group.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
A71 was moved into position for scrapping today.

On her own? Maybe S306 (stored with A71, and X41 etc before they met the torch) is set to avoid the chop?
Yes, S306 was sold at the last minute to a heritage group.
Fatty
s306 is now owned by who? (Who was it sold too?)
  Fatty Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
A71 was moved into position for scrapping today.

On her own? Maybe S306 (stored with A71, and X41 etc before they met the torch) is set to avoid the chop?
Yes, S306 was sold at the last minute to a heritage group.
s306 is now owned by who?
Dangersdan707
I've heard that it's been sold to 707 Operations.
  ADB Station Master

A71 was moved into position for scrapping today.

On her own? Maybe S306 (stored with A71, and X41 etc before they met the torch) is set to avoid the chop?
Yes, S306 was sold at the last minute to a heritage group.
s306 is now owned by who?
I've heard that it's been sold to 707 Operations.
Fatty

You seem to have the inside scoop, Fatty. Do you know if anyone took up V/Line's offer of A60 or A62?

And does anyone know who (if anyone) Aurizon's X54 was sold to?
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
I don't think age has that much to do with it, more likely power output, an X class is even less powerful than an A class (which is basically the guts of an N class (a passenger loco) in a bulldog body, as opposed to the more powerful G/BL/81/GML10 etc.)

I'm guessing it was simply cheaper to scrap the Xs and As than rebuild them to XRs or today's equivalents; the sub-3000hp locos simply had to go. That said, I do hope A60 is set aside for preservation given its history.

Power figures for a number of locos:
Note that some of these have never stepped foot on Victoria's antiquated and underweight broad gauge, but the list is for comparison. Sub-2000hp locos have not been included.

442: 2000hp
80: 2150hp
422: 2200hp
X37-X54: 2210hp
A: 2480hp
N: 2480hp
82: 3250hp
ALF: 3300hp
C: 3300hp
CLP/CLF: 3300hp (basically the XR equivalent of an S class, wonder if it would have been possible with an A/B class)
DL: 3300hp
EL: 3300hp
G/BL/81: 3300hp
GML10: 3300hp
VL: 3300hp
XR: 3300hp

(also, speaking of VicSig, where on earth is GML10 in the database? Photos of the loco show up when forced, but not the loco specs, I had to go to Wikipedia for that)

As for more powerful locos:
NR: 4020hp
AN: 4060hp
90: 4060hp
V544: 4160hp
92: 4520hp

The poor old X doesn't have a hope against NRs and the like.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from: