Geelong high speed rail and electrification

 
  MetroFemme Chief Train Controller

How could it be achieved without electrification for higher speed running?

New stabling for new rollingstock?

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  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Now we need a new twin track underground tunnel from Southern Cross to Tottenham Yard for Airtrain. That tunnel say train every 6 mins max  Southern Cross to Airport  takes 10 paths an hour max, leaving 8 - 10 spare paths .  So say Geelong trains go in Airtunnel out to Totty and Sunshine .  Too long a tunnel for diesel DMU trains so the options would be bi modal trains or electric trains .

A bi modal would be diesel electric/electric, and  electric well all electric .
Express track pair  Sunshine - Robinsons Rd Junction - Black Forest Rd . Then tart up existing track Class - 1 to Corio, upgrade to Class - 1 Corio to North Shore, remove 3 lx  Sunshine - RRJ (on the to do 75 list).  Leaves 11 lx between Manor Junction and North Geelong to grade separate to increase speed to 200kmh .

If electrified then has to go all the way to Waurn Ponds and the new stabling/servicing yard there .  If electrified then a new tunnel probably required at Geelong .
  SamTheMan79 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Geelong
The more (or less) I see from Government (both State & Federal) the more I think the Geelong line will retain V/Locities, be quadded from Wyndham Vale to Sunshine with peak services express from Lara to Sunshine and use the AirTrain tunnel from Sunshine to Southern Cross.

To be honest and in my opinion, that's all it needs to be.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Diesel velocity services is not the way forward for Geelong line needs electrification to ensure speed is maintained. Reading on here I believe it is already planned for.

What would the tunnel length be for Tottenham to SCS ?

Airport line will be electrified from what I have read so the only other part is the line from Deer Park to Geelong via WV.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
What would the tunnel length be for Tottenham to SCS ?
freightgate
Seriously? Google Maps is your friend. It's free, use it!

BG
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Diesel velocity services is not the way forward for Geelong line needs electrification to ensure speed is maintained. Reading on here I believe it is already planned for.

Airport line will be electrified from what I have read so the only other part is the line from Deer Park to Geelong via WV.
freightgate

Electrification to the Geelong area sees planning already underway and yes it is hard to imagine you could do those speeds reliably and cost efficiently without electrification not to mention the environmental benefits.  The airport line is slated to be electrified with the preferred location of the station underground at the current terminal (1-3) which is also the preferred position of the airport authority.

Not 100% sure but the tunnel for the airport rail line will be around the West Footscray area or will it be further west between Totty and Sunshine station?  If that is the case then the design will be very important for Geelong trains which will come into Sunshine on the southern side and need to access the tunnel as will airport line trains from the nortern side so track design will be paramount if the tunnel is to be used for both lines which makes sense.  

That being the case electrification from Sunshine to SCS via the tunnel will already be in place as will the overhead to Melton by then so RRL Junction to Geelong is all that would be required and linking into the network from Werribee West would also be mandatory in my view allowing passengers to connect to airport line and Geelong Line as far away as Newport.
  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner

Since 2004 we've basically had a full line rebuild between Corio & Werribee (RFR) and Manor Junction and Southern Cross (RRL) at a cost of how many billion??

Now the Federal Coalition propose to spend another how many billion on another rebuild?

What a waste of public money!

Just give us Geelong commuters a reliable service, that's all we ask.
SamTheMan79
Hear, hear Sam. If Scomo thinks that electrifying 160km of track and rebuilding it to class 0 standard can be done for a mere $4 Billion when it cost $600 Million to build 18km of mere commuter standard railway plus 3 stations to Mernda then he must be freaking crazy. What even made me more angry is the editorial from the Herald Sun telling Jacinta Allan to stop playing party politics and accept the money. Jacinta refused the money because she knows Scomo has pulled the figure out of his jacksie.


Michael
  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner

How can you achieve an average speed of 160km/hr, when the V/Locity top speed is 160?
Something to keep in mind.

Siemens trains have a top speed of 225kph.
The software has wound them back to their current performance.

Xtraps are in a somewhat similar wind-back situation, as Peter Vincent reported a test on Xtraps going Upper Gully - Upwey with the software at 100%; the front three cars were cut out and the back pushed the lot up 1 in 33 at 78kmh (if memory serves me aright - this was a long time ago) . So you will understand that some of our rolling stock has a lot of unused (performance capacity) (power) ...
574M
Siemens trains have a top speed of 225kph.

Where did you get that info ?

There is no way that one of Metro's Siemens Train which is based on a Metro platform that is obsolete and was made to Victorian specifications (i.e. very cheaply). Both the Siemens and the Xtrap would have maximum speeds of 90 mph (147Km/h)

A totally new train would have to be built to achieve anything near 200 kph.

Michael
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

High Speed Rail and Geelong Corridor - PTV Commuter style


Project Background: Aim is to deliver a service to Geelong that will take around 40 Minutes with dedicated tracks separating Metro and VLine Services, reliability, smashing travel times and helping create Geelong to become a major

What needs to happen

Airport Rail Link will have a new tunnel between Southern Cross and the Airport with Geelong Trains also running via the allignment. Tunnel will be build between Southern Cross and Sunshine to allow Geelong Trains to run express via the western suburbs. Underground Platforms built at Southern Cross for Geelong Services to terminate. Airport Line will run through to South Yarra where it will utilise the empty Platform 5 and 6. Tunnel entrance will be built at Footscray Rd to allow trains to enter the tunnel and run express to Sunshine. This means that the Airport Rail can connect to Richmond, Flinders Street and South Yarra giving passengers on lines such as the Sandringham and Glen Waverley Lines a quick connection to the Airport Train

Two new express tracks built between Sunshine and Black Forest Rd. Geelong Trains will share the express tracks with the Ballarat Trains from Sunshine to Deer Park West before going to Geelong. Reason for extending the Quadruplication past Wyndham Vale is that the Suburban Rail Loop will cover for the new line Wyndham Vale and run on to Black Forest Rd and then Werribee

Removal of Level Crossings along the High Speed Rail Route, costing 1-2 Billion. Will include rebuilding the track to allow fast trains to run as well as benefiting road and rail passengers. Some LX could possibly be closed. Preferred method of removal would be elevated

New fleet of trains capable of 200km/h running, possibly maximum of 220km/h in certain sections. Estimated cost of 2 Billion to purchase the new fleet of trains

Project should also include an extension to Torquay, with services running every 30 Minutes during the Off Peak/Weekends To Waurn Ponds and Torquay, as well as every 15 Minutes during Peak Hour. Project will cost 600 Million for the Extension and 200 Million towards Duplication between South Geelong and Geelong.

Electrification of the Geelong Line is a big project but would also be done alongside the High Speed Rail and would cost using the Sunbury Figures - approximately 1.6 Billion with expenses

Total Cost of high Speed Rail To Geelong - AUD $8 Billion


Geelong Metro Project. Involves two new lines created using existing VLocity fleet, also involves partial conversion of fleet to standard gauge.

- Line To Run from Geelong to Bendigo via Ballarat, Maryborough and Eaglehawk. Connects to areas such as Bannockburn and Lal Lal as well as being run on standard gauge through to Bendigo. Would run as an hourly service and offer an intercity VLine service with trains reaching speeds of 130km/h on Class 2 Standard Track

- Line To Run from Werribee to Colac via Geelong. Connects Geelong to Werribee employment area and covers that missing link that has existed since the opening of RRL. Service to run hourly and provide Winchelsea and Colac with a reliable service. Coach Services will also run from Winchelsea to areas like Lorne giving people access to the Great Ocean Road.


High Speed Rail Project would also run in three stopping patterns, reducing confusion for passengers

- Stopping all stations

- Semi Express stopping at Waurn Ponds/Torquay, Marshall, South Geelong, Geelong, North Geelong, Lara & Sunshine

- Flyer Service stopping running express between Geelong and CBD  


8 Billion, four times what is being talked about right now but a game changer. Cost would be more but the 13 Billion dollar Airport Rail covers the cost between Sunshine and Southern Cross. As for Ballarat well that involves doing something with the 30-40 LX that it has as well as it being double the Geelong Line in length. A better option is to continue duplicating the line, build class 1 track to make it run at 160km/h and it will also benefit with the Melton Line Electrification and Extension meaning it doesn’t stop at Deer Park, Ardeer, Caroline Springs, etc
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

You had me up to “Line from Geelong to Bendigo”.

Nah, seriously though, it’s probably a bit optimistic, but we can dream!
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

Airport Line will run through to South Yarra where it will utilise the empty Platform 5 and 6
ptvcommuter
Is there space for this? Assuming city loop reconfiguration by the time the Airport line opens, no Metro 2 and sticking as close as possible to the Network Development Plan; the six tracks will be taken up by:
  • Through routed Sandringham to Upfield trains
  • Through routed Werribee/Laverton/Williamstown to Glen Waverley/Alamein trains
  • Clifton Hill group trains
  • Ringwood group trains
Is there space?
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Is there space for this? Assuming city loop reconfiguration by the time the Airport line opens, no Metro 2 and sticking as close as possible to the Network Development Plan; the six tracks will be taken up by: Through routed Sandringham to Upfield trains Through routed Werribee/Laverton/Williamstown to Glen Waverley/Alamein trains Clifton Hill group trains Ringwood group trains Is there space?
reubstar6


First of all - The Network development plan is being replaced by a new one, it mentions Sandringham being routed to Williamstown, Glen Waverley to Wallan, etc

Could still work

- Clifton Hill Loop
- Ringwood Loop
- Sandringham to Williamstown & South Yarra to Airport
- Glen Waverley/Alamein to Wallan

There’s probably room on the Sandringham to Newport tracks to add 6 TPH for Airport Services.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Had some idle thoughts as I trundled out through Deer Park on the weekend.

How would you arrange the junctions at Deer Park and Sunshine? I’m looking for both “ideal world” and “probable” answers here.

Sunshine is almost too hard to answer because it’s not clear how tracks will be assigned on the up side in the long run.

But Deer Park Junction will almost certainly be a merge of two pairs of tracks. Express lines to the north (see design at Rockbank) and stopping suburban lines to the south.

Obviously the ideal solution would be a double flying junction. Can anyone supply examples of this elsewhere? How much space would it take up? Could it be squeezed under the Western Freeway bridge to the west?

Unfortunately it seems to me a more likely and less expensive outcome will be an at grade junction for the suburban lines and a single double track flyover for the Geelong line landing in the middle of the Ballarat tracks somewhere toward Deer Park station.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Deer Park station itself is being elevated with Mt Derrimut and Robinsons Road being grade separated.

There is about 900m between Robinsons Road and the Western Freeway for both branches, so plenty of space to fit in a junction somewhere.
  Gauntlet Chief Commissioner

Location:
For Deer Park I'd have the flyover on the up side of Mt Derrimut Road.
When the crossing gets removed I'd raise the rails, with the raised down track starting several hundred metres closer to the ring road.
When Deer Park to Sunshine gets quadded the up Geelong track would pass under the down Ballarat sky rail and then rise over Mt Derrimut Road.
Deer Park station would probably just have one island platform - for Ballarat/Melton trains only, and Robinsons Road would go over the rails.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Since 2004 we've basically had a full line rebuild between Corio & Werribee (RFR) and Manor Junction and Southern Cross (RRL) at a cost of how many billion??

Now the Federal Coalition propose to spend another how many billion on another rebuild?

What a waste of public money!

Just give us Geelong commuters a reliable service, that's all we ask.
Hear, hear Sam. If Scomo thinks that electrifying 160km of track and rebuilding it to class 0 standard can be done for a mere $4 Billion when it cost $600 Million to build 18km of mere commuter standard railway plus 3 stations to Mernda then he must be freaking crazy. What even made me more angry is the editorial from the Herald Sun telling Jacinta Allan to stop playing party politics and accept the money. Jacinta refused the money because she knows Scomo has pulled the figure out of his jacksie.


Michael
mejhammers1
If $4B is not enough, then I would suggest abandon the project outright and consider other more beneficial projects.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Since 2004 we've basically had a full line rebuild between Corio & Werribee (RFR) and Manor Junction and Southern Cross (RRL) at a cost of how many billion??

Now the Federal Coalition propose to spend another how many billion on another rebuild?

What a waste of public money!

Just give us Geelong commuters a reliable service, that's all we ask.
Hear, hear Sam. If Scomo thinks that electrifying 160km of track and rebuilding it to class 0 standard can be done for a mere $4 Billion when it cost $600 Million to build 18km of mere commuter standard railway plus 3 stations to Mernda then he must be freaking crazy. What even made me more angry is the editorial from the Herald Sun telling Jacinta Allan to stop playing party politics and accept the money. Jacinta refused the money because she knows Scomo has pulled the figure out of his jacksie.


Michael
If $4B is not enough, then I would suggest abandon the project outright and consider other more beneficial projects.
RTT_Rules

Herald-Sun...grasping at straws to 'save' the Libs who are already dead, buried and almost cremated to use an Abbottism of a few years ago.

ScoMo is trying to shore up Sarah Ferguson in Corangamite who is almost a dead set loss and is promising BIG on anything that's popular to do so. It's called 'pork barreling' as per the below article. It's unlikely much will come of it.

https://www.theage.com.au/federal-election-2019/porkathon-at-26k-per-voter-20190514-p51n4j.html

Mike.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Sarah Henderson would attend the opening of an envelope . Scomo suggestion of $ 4bn and Hendersons claim she is delivering fast rail for Geelong is totally dishonest advertising . The reality is Ms Henderson is NOT actually delivering anything and nor is she likely to even if the punters give her a further 3 years ; as it would require 3 x 3 further year terms from Scomos outfit to actually start deliverying anything meaningful.

The reality is that of $ 2.8bn Sarah Henderson claims is delivering fast rail and Waurn Ponds duplication,  only $ 50m is shown in the Federal budget forward estimates indiacting all potential future Federal expenditure over the next four years ,  So the claim is an actual  CON, and if it were a private company advert the ACCC would charge for misleading advertising .

Now lets get back to realistic priorities and order of costs in order  of need .

1.  Electrify and sparks to Wyndham Vale , and duplicate  South Geelong Waurn Ponds at same time -  State target Ponds duplication by 2023 . No timeline on Wyndham Vale sparks at this time but becoming URGENT as VLP cannot handle loadings ex Tarneit & Wyndham Vale .

2. Separate  express  VLP track pair  Sunshine - Robinsons Road - Black Forest Rd .( Includes 3 grade seps already announced.)

3. Then consider faster trains and Geelong electrification , like 200kmh Robinsons Road to North Shore requiring grade separation of 11 further level crossings between Manor Junction and North Geelong .(Higher speed incurs higher track maintenance costs.)

Realistically $  4bn would struggle to cover quadding Sunshine to Black Forest Road and electrification of the original RRL track pair to Wyndham Vale .

One would need to do a detailed cost benefit analysis as to whether 200kmh running is worth it for the time saving in that most trains would still stop at Lara, and North Geelong even at peak times . Remember the RFR  "Flagships" - where are they now ?

Any additional money would probably be better spent on AC electrification 160kmh running as now and high capacity double deck Inter Urban rollingstock as used throughout Italy &  France .
  Rossco T Train Controller

Location: Camberwell, Victoria

ScoMo is trying to shore up Sarah Ferguson in Corangamite who is almost a dead set loss

Mike.
The Vinelander

I think that would be Sarah Henderson, Mike.  Whilst Sarah Henderson was a former ABC presenter and journalist in the 1990s, Sarah Ferguson still works there and was recently appointed China Bureau Chief.

But I agree with your sentiment that Sarah is likely to lose her seat come Saturday!

Ross
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Sarah Henderson it is. I stand corrected. Embarassed
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Sarah Henderson it is. I stand corrected. Embarassed
The Vinelander

Sarah looks increasingly like she will lose her seat which I hope will not impact the funding for higher speed services on the Geelong line?
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Looking back at the length of time it took to electrify Broadmeadows - Craigieburn, it will take 20 years to do it to Geelong.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Sarah Henderson it is. I stand corrected. Embarassed

Sarah looks increasingly like she will lose her seat which I hope will not impact the funding for higher speed services on the Geelong line?
bevans

As ScoMo has won the election, albeit at this stage possibly needing the support of independent/s, he must honour his promise regards the Geelong line funding, though it's not scheduled to be allocated for another 5 years apparently.

This, among other promises were made to be delivered several years into the future.

Mike.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy


As ScoMo has won the election, albeit at this stage possibly needing the support of independent/s, he must honour his promise regards the Geelong line funding, though it's not scheduled to be allocated for another 5 years apparently.

This, among other promises were made to be delivered several years into the future.
The Vinelander
Like the tax cuts.
Promises for many years hence are great for the pollies who make them. There can always be "changed circumstances", "blowout in cost estimates", "higher priorities for spending" and so on. These promises all carry their own selections of out clauses.
  8077 Chief Train Controller

Location: Crossing the Rubicon
Looking back at the length of time it took to electrify Broadmeadows - Craigieburn, it will take 20 years to do it to Geelong.
Valvegear

Late coming to the discussion but when was the money promised in the next political term?

I hope the money comes earlier as the line is at capacity now and we might just see a combination of EMU and DMU operation on the line from day 1?

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