Geelong high speed rail and electrification

 
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Hi Ho
Hi Ho
It's 25kV AC we go....????

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  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Don,get too excited. A lot of ducks need to line up yet  in that  :

- Scomo has not allocated any $ in the next 4 years towards any Geelong Line rail project other than $ 50m for yet another Study  !!!
- Secondly  Victoria has to agree to match  Scomo $ 2billion
- Thirdly Scomo has to be PM  in 3 - 6 years time  ?  

Victoria is right in that one needs to fix a few other things before we get too fixated on the fast train thing  in :

- Addressing current peak capacity crisis by electrifying to Wyndham Vale and separate VLP express track pair  Sunshine to Black Forest Road.

- Duplication South Geelong - Waurn Ponds

Plus Scomo will almost certainly wriggle off the hook if Ann henderson does not scrape in .

Viz:  The undertaking was vague as Scomo projected it as Co-alition wins and Ann Henderson wins ?  So  Scomo wins but Labor scrapes in then Scomo will no doubt try and wriggle off the hook .

All a bit academic really as such undertakings are worthless and can be made fairly safely in that in 6 years tiime you probably wont be in Government, in the mean time you trade barbs with the State Government - nothing changes .  Same old SMEG just a different sewer  !!!
  8077 Chief Train Controller

Location: Crossing the Rubicon
Summarising it seems there is nothing coming into Victoria in the way of cash promised in the election for a few years other than the $50m study.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

instead of worrying about high speed electrification. How about just electrifying the network to geelong. It's not like geelong is that far away from southern cross at only 75km's via werribee.
  david harvey Station Master

Location: Eastern Victoria
Like most politicians spin; "I'm not sure whether it was a non core promise"

or "that was what my predecessor said" said

as far  constituents go "One day your a cream bun ,the next day your a turd at Werribee
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
instead of worrying about high speed electrification. How about just electrifying the network to geelong. It's not like geelong is that far away from southern cross at only 75km's via werribee.
simstrain
Geelong Is 9 km longer via Sunshine (at about 82 km's)

There Is no Indication that Geelong trains will return running via Werribee, not even with a proposed Metro 2 line.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
instead of worrying about high speed electrification. How about just electrifying the network to geelong. It's not like geelong is that far away from southern cross at only 75km's via werribee.
simstrain
Yes, agree, they are 70 years behind doing what should have been done previously and only one step away from the steam era and now they want the next step to be the worlds fastest commuter run paid for by taxpayers on the other side of the Murry.  

Ahh got to love the socialist way of thinking, you spend your money to make my life better!


- Spark the line
- Improve the track to 200km/h running on the long straights
- better access through the burbs
- Buy 200km/h train sets.
- Achieve 40-45min Geelong - Melbourne

Whole thing will be done for a $1-2B, spent over 3 years and only be 10min or so slower than HSR.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

instead of worrying about high speed electrification. How about just electrifying the network to geelong. It's not like geelong is that far away from southern cross at only 75km's via werribee.
Yes, agree, they are 70 years behind doing what should have been done previously and only one step away from the steam era and now they want the next step to be the worlds fastest commuter run paid for by taxpayers on the other side of the Murry.  

Ahh got to love the socialist way of thinking, you spend your money to make my life better!


- Spark the line
- Improve the track to 200km/h running on the long straights
- better access through the burbs
- Buy 200km/h train sets.
- Achieve 40-45min Geelong - Melbourne

Whole thing will be done for a $1-2B, spent over 3 years and only be 10min or so slower than HSR.
RTT_Rules
$1-2 billion? You might get quad WV-Deer Park for that with all the other things you mention, but the slowest part of the journey is on the up side of that, and that ain't going away for $2b.

And again, ridiculous idea that "taxpayers on the other side of the Murray" are paying - Victorians pay income and company tax too, and are entitled to get some of it back...
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

And again, ridiculous idea that "taxpayers on the other side of the Murray" are paying - Victorians pay income and company tax too, and are entitled to get some of it back...
potatoinmymouth

Agreed...a disproportionate percentage of Victorians are paying for infrastructure in NSW and indeed all the other states and territories.

Mike.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE

And again, ridiculous idea that "taxpayers on the other side of the Murray" are paying - Victorians pay income and company tax too, and are entitled to get some of it back...
Agreed...a disproportionate percentage of Victorians are paying for infrastructure in NSW and indeed all the other states and territories.

Mike.
The Vinelander
NSW can fund its own commuter rail infrastructure, so can Vic.

Looks like the feds will build you a Airport line that NSW and Qld self funded, the feds paid for your RFR project and the NW SG project.

What else do you expect those north of the Murry to Pay for?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

NSW can fund its own commuter rail infrastructure, so can Vic.
RTT_Rulea

...which is why Vic is going alone on the Metro Tunnel.

This conversation is showing a very strange understanding of how the federation works.

Did you read the figures I posted in the other thread? That 51% of NSW government revenue is Commonwealth money? Or does that not suit whatever strange little narrative you’re creating here?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
instead of worrying about high speed electrification. How about just electrifying the network to geelong. It's not like geelong is that far away from southern cross at only 75km's via werribee.
Yes, agree, they are 70 years behind doing what should have been done previously and only one step away from the steam era and now they want the next step to be the worlds fastest commuter run paid for by taxpayers on the other side of the Murry.  

Ahh got to love the socialist way of thinking, you spend your money to make my life better!


- Spark the line
- Improve the track to 200km/h running on the long straights
- better access through the burbs
- Buy 200km/h train sets.
- Achieve 40-45min Geelong - Melbourne

Whole thing will be done for a $1-2B, spent over 3 years and only be 10min or so slower than HSR.
RTT_Rules

I like SMART goals and therefore I agree with this.  target this outcome first and see what can be achieved in terms of additional funding in stages for the Geelong and Ballarat Lines.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

NSW can fund its own commuter rail infrastructure, so can Vic.

...which is why Vic is going alone on the Metro Tunnel.

This conversation is showing a very strange understanding of how the federation works.

Did you read the figures I posted in the other thread? That 51% of NSW government revenue is Commonwealth money? Or does that not suit whatever strange little narrative you’re creating here?
potatoinmymouth

- Do NSW residents not generate and pay tax like Victorian residents do PIM?
- Are we not entitled to tax money just like Victorians and the rest of the country are?
- What percentage of Victorian government money is funded by the feds?
- What strange narrative are you trying to create?
- 51% of funding from the federal government would actually seem to be quite low considering how much revenue NSW creates for the federal government. How much is this number for the other states?
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
NSW can fund its own commuter rail infrastructure, so can Vic.

...which is why Vic is going alone on the Metro Tunnel.

This conversation is showing a very strange understanding of how the federation works.

Did you read the figures I posted in the other thread? That 51% of NSW government revenue is Commonwealth money? Or does that not suit whatever strange little narrative you’re creating here?

- Do NSW residents not generate and pay tax like Victorian residents do PIM?
- Are we not entitled to tax money just like Victorians and the rest of the country are?
- What percentage of Victorian government money is funded by the feds?
- What strange narrative are you trying to create?
- 51% of funding from the federal government would actually seem to be quite low considering how much revenue NSW creates for the federal government. How much is this number for the other states?
simstrain
and who has the biggest economy of the 2 ?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-30/victoria-displaces-nsw-as-nations-strongest-economy/10050678
  simstrain Chief Commissioner


And again, ridiculous idea that "taxpayers on the other side of the Murray" are paying - Victorians pay income and company tax too, and are entitled to get some of it back...
Agreed...a disproportionate percentage of Victorians are paying for infrastructure in NSW and indeed all the other states and territories.

Mike.
The Vinelander

Victorians are not paying for anything in NSW. Do you Victorians think that you are the only people paying tax in this country. NSW generates way more then it's share of tax dollars it receives each year.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

and who has the biggest economy of the 2 ?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-30/victoria-displaces-nsw-as-nations-strongest-economy/10050678
Dangersdan707

Strongest, not biggest.
  8077 Chief Train Controller

Location: Crossing the Rubicon
instead of worrying about high speed electrification. How about just electrifying the network to geelong. It's not like geelong is that far away from southern cross at only 75km's via werribee.
Yes, agree, they are 70 years behind doing what should have been done previously and only one step away from the steam era and now they want the next step to be the worlds fastest commuter run paid for by taxpayers on the other side of the Murry.  

Ahh got to love the socialist way of thinking, you spend your money to make my life better!


- Spark the line
- Improve the track to 200km/h running on the long straights
- better access through the burbs
- Buy 200km/h train sets.
- Achieve 40-45min Geelong - Melbourne

Whole thing will be done for a $1-2B, spent over 3 years and only be 10min or so slower than HSR.

I like SMART goals and therefore I agree with this.  target this outcome first and see what can be achieved in terms of additional funding in stages for the Geelong and Ballarat Lines.
bevans

The issue with this approach is the money is not landing in one payment and will be phased even out to 2023 which is after Morrison will go to the polls yet again.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
instead of worrying about high speed electrification. How about just electrifying the network to geelong. It's not like geelong is that far away from southern cross at only 75km's via werribee.
Yes, agree, they are 70 years behind doing what should have been done previously and only one step away from the steam era and now they want the next step to be the worlds fastest commuter run paid for by taxpayers on the other side of the Murry.  

Ahh got to love the socialist way of thinking, you spend your money to make my life better!


- Spark the line
- Improve the track to 200km/h running on the long straights
- better access through the burbs
- Buy 200km/h train sets.
- Achieve 40-45min Geelong - Melbourne

Whole thing will be done for a $1-2B, spent over 3 years and only be 10min or so slower than HSR.

I like SMART goals and therefore I agree with this.  target this outcome first and see what can be achieved in terms of additional funding in stages for the Geelong and Ballarat Lines.

The issue with this approach is the money is not landing in one payment and will be phased even out to 2023 which is after Morrison will go to the polls yet again.
8077
Once the project is started and committed, the Future Feds are unlikely to stop it.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

It doesn't even have a business case yet. The suburban rail loop is likely to start before the Geelong/Wyndham/Melton electrification project.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
NSW can fund its own commuter rail infrastructure, so can Vic.

...which is why Vic is going alone on the Metro Tunnel.

This conversation is showing a very strange understanding of how the federation works.

Did you read the figures I posted in the other thread? That 51% of NSW government revenue is Commonwealth money? Or does that not suit whatever strange little narrative you’re creating here?
potatoinmymouth
Yah, your actually paying for something on your own!

The problem with the evolving way of doing things in Australia is that the bulk of the states and Qld is King, SA comes 2nd here have fallen into the trap of not doing even basic infrastructure projects, especially in commuter rail without sticking their hand out. Qld Politicians were blaming tthe Feds for the delay in the CRR project because the Feds wouldn't fund originally 80% of a $6B project. The Geelong commuter line is no different, you haven't even electrified it and you are talking high speed and want the Feds to fund it too boot. Look we could understand if it was funding for a short by high cost and complex section to be upgraded, but paying for the bloody OH on 100km of commuter line? No, that belongs with those south of the Murry, even the WA's managed to build and spark their own interurban commuter line from scratch.

PT is a state issue, build it yourself. Let the Feds worry about funding interstate and National interests (getting someone to work on a fast train is not in the National Interest) and reduce the blame game.

I haven't seen the figures, but if its like the ones posted by someone below claiming Vic to be No.1 state just because it current;y has the fastest population growth, I wait with baited breath on what you have to offer.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

It isn't even 100km's RTT as it is only 40km's from Werribee to Geelong. Take the high capacity train and make it 9 carriages with vlocity seats and you have an intercity electric train. Either that or put in a 3+2 seat like the former g set tangara's that provide a good enough experience for a 60 minute service.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

HSR Melb - Sydney - Bris, is a Fed issue right RTT?
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

Should be looking into the Class 802 from the UK. They have ordered them in both 5 (130m) and 9 (234m) car sets.

Dual Overhead/Diesel train top speed of 200 to 220 km/hr (125 to 140 mph).

Very capable train that can allow for future electrification of VLine routes, without needing to electrify before getting in new trains.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

I posted all this on the Fed Election thread Shane but clearly it was missed among all the bickering.

In 2017-18, 51% of NSW government revenue was Commonwealth grants and GST. This compares with 58% for Victoria.

The difference is hardly surprising. The NSW tax take is bigger on both a per capita and per GSP basis, despite what some would have you believe.

Over the forward estimates, NSW are able to project a 2.5% p.a. increase in this funding. Victoria, on the other hand, anticipates a measly 1.0% over the three years.

The fact is that NSW is about as self-funded as a retiree on franking credits, once you strip away the propaganda about who’s funding big ticket items.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Where do the feds get the money from PIM? The feds have the money because they are the collectors of TAX in this country. If NSW collected tax instead of the federal government then we would absolutely be self funded and Victoria would likely be the same. The other states and territories on the other hand not so much.

In any case my issue is not with how the states are funded but solely with Vinelander's claim about Victorian tax money being spent in NSW. What proof is there of this? Does he think that we don't pay tax north of the border? Has Daniel Andrews been secretly giving NSW money that we don't know about?

Geelong is a simple solution. Run the overhead the extra 40km's from Werribee to Geelong and build the new trains with seats capable of handling 1 hour journeys and make them capable of 160km/h just like the vlocity.

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