Melbourne Metro Rail Project Revived

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 16 Feb 2015 17:54
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Rail Projects Victoria How can we look like we are doing something?
Finish Tunnel?
Finish Murray basing SG-ing?
Nope make Melbourne in MINECRAFT


https://youtu.be/YKPjBt4JqGw

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  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Rail Projects Victoria How can we look like we are doing something?
Finish Tunnel?
Finish Murray basing SG-ing?
Nope make Melbourne in MINECRAFT


https://youtu.be/YKPjBt4JqGw
Dangersdan707
Checks the date? Must be something wrong, it's not April 1st.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Rail Projects Victoria How can we look like we are doing something?
Finish Tunnel?
Finish Murray basing SG-ing?
Nope make Melbourne in MINECRAFT


https://youtu.be/YKPjBt4JqGw
Checks the date? Must be something wrong, it's not April 1st.
True Believers
Nope Premier is releasing a Minecraft map Laughing what an age we live in. I must install it again  

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/minecraft-reveals-melbournes-past-and-present/
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

There goes away that 2 billion dollar commitment to MM1, money locked up East-West Link instead.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

Let's be realistic. The feds are going to do nothing with the East-West link. They can easily blame Daniel Andrews and say that it's impossible to make progress. That $4 Billion is money they don't have. If only we could close some tax loopholes to actually get that money...
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Let's be realistic. The feds are going to do nothing with the East-West link. They can easily blame Daniel Andrews and say that it's impossible to make progress. That $4 Billion is money they don't have. If only we could close some tax loopholes to actually get that money...
reubstar6
Looks like the Federal and Victorian State Governments will be at logger heads with each other for the next 3 years.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Let's be realistic. The feds are going to do nothing with the East-West link. They can easily blame Daniel Andrews and say that it's impossible to make progress. That $4 Billion is money they don't have. If only we could close some tax loopholes to actually get that money...
Looks like the Federal and Victorian State Governments will be at logger heads with each other for the next 3 years.
Nightfire
True, but Dan will probably still be laughing all the way to the bank, because the feds have to face the music again before he does.

Excluding SA because of the loss of Xenophon, Victoria was the only state where the ALP primary vote increased last night. We don't have reliable 2PP figures on a state-by-state basis yet but you can safely bet that will manifest as the biggest statewide swing. Labor may not have succeeded in taking many or any seats, but they have made quite a few marginal, and so they will certainly be in play in 2022.

Who knows what the economic climate will be like in 3 years time, but if Andrews has to oversee a lean few years and suffers in popularity as a result, you can bet it will culminate in a spendathon of equivalent or greater magnitude during the federal campaign from a revamped Labor Party (especially if under Albanese) and a Coalition looking for a fourth term after two knife-edge elections (historically improbable at best).

My guess is that there will be a few more Airport link-style announcements where Andrews and Morrison grit their teeth, smile for the cameras, and enjoy their new mutual hostage relationship.
  ElliotProvis Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Honestly couldn’t have said it better PIMM. Let’s hope it some outlandish Fixed Four Year Term of Federal Parliament Act isn’t passed!!!

Actually this raises a good question — is the length of term of Parliament contained in the Electoral Act, or the Constitution?
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Honestly couldn’t have said it better PIMM. Let’s hope it some outlandish Fixed Four Year Term of Federal Parliament Act isn’t passed!!!

Actually this raises a good question — is the length of term of Parliament contained in the Electoral Act, or the Constitution?
ElliotProvis
The Constitution.

13 Rotation of Senators:
As soon as may be after the Senate first meets, and after each first meeting of the Senate following a dissolution thereof, the Senate shall divide the senators chosen for each State into two classes, as nearly equal in number as practicable; and the places of the senators of the first class shall become vacant at the expiration of three years, and the places of those of the second class at the expiration of six years, from the beginning of their term of service; and afterwards the places of senators shall become vacant at the expiration of six years from the beginning of their term of service.
The election to fill vacant places shall be made within one year before the places are to become vacant.
For the purposes of this section the term of service of a senator shall be taken to begin on the first day of July following the day of his election, except in the cases of the first election and of the election next after any dissolution of the Senate, when it shall be taken to begin on the first day of July preceding the day of his election.

28 Duration of House of Representatives
Every House of Representatives shall continue for three years from the first meeting of the House, and no longer, but may be sooner dissolved by the Governor‑General.


There have been three referenda which have attempted to change only the Senate terms, with the following results:
1974 - 48.3% national vote, yes majority in 1/6 states, rejected
1977 - 62.2% national vote, yes majority in 3/6 states, only met one of the two majorities and therefore rejected
1984 - 50.6% national vote, yes majority in 2/6 states, only met one of the two majorities and therefore rejected

1988 saw a referendum which attempted to change the terms for both houses to a four year maximum, this achieved a very low 32.9% national vote and didn't even reach 40% in any states.
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Honestly couldn’t have said it better PIMM. Let’s hope it some outlandish Fixed Four Year Term of Federal Parliament Act isn’t passed!!!

Actually this raises a good question — is the length of term of Parliament contained in the Electoral Act, or the Constitution?
ElliotProvis
Hello All,

terms of the Commonwealth Parliament are set out in the Constitution, hence 3 years for the House of Representatives and 6 years for the half the Senators, and 3 years for the other half of Senators. Senate terms are based on distributed votes individually allocated, therefore in any State, the 6 Senators with the highest number of allocated votes gets a 6 years term, and the remaining 6 Senators get a 3 years term.

The various Constitutional reviews have suggested a fixed 4 year term for the HofR, which would mean either an 8 or a 4 year term for Senators. The 8 year term is not a popular idea, but that is the logic of the current set up.

Alternatively, you could just have a fixed 4 year term for both the Senate and the HofR, which I personally think is a good idea, however, any change to the current arrangement requires a Referendum for Constitutional Change, and that is a big ask !

( Both Victoria and NSW have fixed 4 year terms, but , historically, the States all once had nominal 3 year maximum terms. )

Some years back when the NSW Lower House was considered on the nose ( well, more so than usual) some letter writers blamed the problem on the fixed four year terms. The flaw in that argument was the fact that the Government of the Day had both a substantial majority, and therefore were highly unlikely to loose a No Confidence Motion which, under a non fixed term Parliament may ( not will ) lead to an early election.

Even with fixed term Parliaments, the Government of the Day must hold the confidence of the Lower House, if not, that Government falls, and the Lower House has to find a new Premier / Prime Minister to form a Government which will enjoy the confidence of the House. ( The fall of the Neville Chamberlain Government in 1940 , and the subsequent establishment of a National All Party Government is one example of this. )

As a number of other British model type Parliaments have demonstrated, a fixed term Parliament can still operate effectively even if the composition of the Government which enjoys the Confidence of Parliament , changes during the course of a particular Parliament. Victoria , PNG and New Zealand have all experienced Parliaments in which Governments have changed and been reformed within the term of Parliament, and without requiring a general election to resolve it.

While Italy may be notorious for changing Governments more frequently than mums changing their babies nappies, this is a reality of multi party Governments , and whether the term of parliament is fixed or not, Governments can be changed mid stream without requiring a general election.

I just personally think that a fixed 4 year term of Parliament is both more stable, and ensures that the Government of the Day has to concentrate on completing a full 4 year term. I think it can be demonstrated in Australia and overseas that fixed term Parliaments tend to be more stable, and therefore tend to work better, but, of course, over time there will always be an exception to that,

Regards, Radioman.
  ElliotProvis Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Victoria
@Radioman

I actually agree — I think fixed-term Parliaments are worthy. As I understand it, all mainland states and territories now have fixed four-year term Parliaments, because voters were frustrated having to go to the polls so frequently.

Indeed, the commonwealth is a global outlier for our bicameral system of government. Most other bicameral systems have four-five year terms, and many of them are fixed.
https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Joint/Completed_Inquiries/em/elect04/chapter7#len

Additionally, many places like Tas, NSW, WA, have 8 year tenure for the members of the legislative council (the states equivalent of the Senate)... so I don’t necessarily see that as being a particular problem.
Considering that voting is compulsory (and will stay that way for the foreseeable future), I think people would be relieved to not have to go to the polls with the unpredictability they currently have to!!
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Hello All,

terms of the Commonwealth Parliament are set out in the Constitution, hence 3 years for the House of Representatives and 6 years for the half the Senators, and 3 years for the other half of Senators. Senate terms are based on distributed votes individually allocated, therefore in any State, the 6 Senators with the highest number of allocated votes gets a 6 years term, and the remaining 6 Senators get a 3 years term.
Radioman
Under normal circumstances, all senators representing the states have 6 year terms (territory senators have terms which expire on the dissolution of the House of Representatives) with the two 'classes' of senators being staggered by 3 years - e.g. half serve 2016-2022, half serve 2019-2025

A 3 year term is very rare and only ever applies when needed to 'restart' the rotation after the Senate is dissolved for a double dissolution election, as it was in 2016.

When this happens, the Constitution specifies that the Senate sorts out for itself which senators get a full term and which get a half term. The 'order elected' method was used last time around, but there's no guarantee that it will be the same method chosen next time the Senate meets after having been dissolved. The other most likely possibility is a recount of the election as if it were a normal half-Senate election with only six vacancies per state, with those who gain a quota under this method being the ones who would get a 6 year term.
  drunkill Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Portal slab has been poured.

  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
@Radioman

I actually agree — I think fixed-term Parliaments are worthy. As I understand it, all mainland states and territories now have fixed four-year term Parliaments, because voters were frustrated having to go to the polls so frequently.

Indeed, the commonwealth is a global outlier for our bicameral system of government. Most other bicameral systems have four-five year terms, and many of them are fixed.
https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Joint/Completed_Inquiries/em/elect04/chapter7#len

Additionally, many places like Tas, NSW, WA, have 8 year tenure for the members of the legislative council (the states equivalent of the Senate)... so I don’t necessarily see that as being a particular problem.
Considering that voting is compulsory (and will stay that way for the foreseeable future), I think people would be relieved to not have to go to the polls with the unpredictability they currently have to!!
ElliotProvis
A bit of trivia
Next election

NT,    22-8-20, 4 year
ACT,  17-10-20, 4 year  
Qld   31-10-20, 3 year, one house
W.A. 13-3-21, 4 year
SA    19-3-22. 4 year
Vic    24-11-22. 4 year
Tas   Not Fixed, some time 2022, 4 year max
NSW 25-3-23, 4 year

Agree, the Fed govt should go to next election with a fixed 3 or 4 year term, ideally 4 year and if 4 year then a double dissolution every time
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Just want to say that the TFPCs and other safety workers at West Footscray have a truly unenviable job: no access to the site except across an active corridor, and no way to operate excavators without fouling the the suburban line, the goods lines, or both. Plus live overhead.
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

First TBM getting dropped down the hole at Nth Melbourne (Arden) today.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

First TBM getting dropped down the hole at Nth Melbourne (Arden) today.
Adogs

Can't wait to see the TBM fully assembled and start digging away, this would be amazing to see ^-^
  chomper Junior Train Controller

Auditor-general reveals 30% cost blowout to early construction works:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/metro-tunnel-faces-huge-cost-blowout-watchdog-reveals-20190606-p51v0g.html

Umm, maybe it has something to do with the fact that labourers are on $150k...
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Auditor-general reveals 30% cost blowout to early construction works:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/metro-tunnel-faces-huge-cost-blowout-watchdog-reveals-20190606-p51v0g.html

Umm, maybe it has something to do with the fact that labourers are on $150k...
chomper
It doesn't. There's a lot to go through in the full report:

https://www.audit.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-06/060619-Metro-Tunnel_1.pdf

but the main reason given for the cost blowout is as follows:

The state’s desire to bring forward the overall project delivery date from 2026 to 2025—particularly by taking on the risk of constructing deep access shafts in the CBD—has come at an unanticipated extra cost, due to:
 initial underestimation by RPV of the likely costs and technical challenges of deep access shafts
 difficult and unforeseen geological conditions
 requirements by the PPP consortium for the redesign of the strutting system used in the State Library station access shafts after excavation works had already commenced  

...

RPV’s decision to bring in a member of the PPP consortium as its ‘delegate’ to help resolve delay and design issues in the State Library station precinct access shafts, as well as other early works, resulted in an unanticipated cost of $68.3 million. This extra cost was due to the EWSA that RPV negotiated with a member of the PPP consortium.  

Under this arrangement, the member of the PPP consortium raised an additional $172.8 million of variations, including the redesign of some elements of the deep access shafts. RPV paid for these variations, triggered by the PPP consortium while acting as the state’s delegate, from wider project contingency funds. RPV advises that it believes the state would have incurred these costs regardless of the delegate arrangement. It also asserts that the arrangement with a member of the PPP consortium has effectively mitigated the state’s exposure to any more ongoing delay risks and potential future compensation claims by the PPP
consortium due to late handover of the deep access shafts by the state. The wider public sector can learn from the interface risks that have realised in this project.
Auditor-General

More troublingly, in my view, DOT and other agencies have little to no idea how the Metro Tunnel will function coherently with the dozens of other projects underway:
We are uncertain about the accuracy of some elements of the models PTV used to forecast passenger demand for the project. The 2016 business case was based on a specific demand forecast output from the Victorian Integrated Transport Model (VITM) and did not make it clear to decision‐makers or the public that this figure could vary significantly because predictive models cannot be exact.  

It was difficult for us to understand the rationale for many key assumptions used in the models as PTV and DoT did not document these decisions well.
Auditor-General

On the up side, we've got good environmental management:
DELWP’s identification and management of key environmental risks for this large and complex project, which affects many sensitive locations, has been diligent and effective.  

In addition to this good work to date, all project parties will need to maintain high levels of focus to comply with the various environmental management controls now that construction is entering a more intense and complex phase.
Auditor-General

And some solid project management in other areas:
The agencies we audited showed good practice in their early identification of project risks and made a focused effort to mitigate them. Examples of this include the early relocation of utilities and other services, as well as prompt land acquisitions and site clearances soon after the confirmation of the project’s boundaries.
Auditor-General

The government has said they accept all the recommendations. I'll have to go through this in more detail later but hopefully this is used to inform the other major projects underway, and the rest of this one. In some ways everything here is entirely predictable, given the lack of major project expertise in Victoria.
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
Auditor-general reveals 30% cost blowout to early construction works:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/metro-tunnel-faces-huge-cost-blowout-watchdog-reveals-20190606-p51v0g.html

Umm, maybe it has something to do with the fact that labourers are on $150k...
chomper
Umm, maybe you should just read the report of what the Auditor General said, instead of making stuff up.

This 31.2 percent increase is due to an expansion of the project's scope to include managing road closures and keeping traffic flowing during construction.
The Age - Auditor-General report
Fun stuff like re-building the domain tram lines, work most sites throughout the night, blokes in high vis holding lolly-pops.
None of the extras are cheap.

If you are brave enough to be bored silly, the overview can be seen here
Auditor General presentation
or the report in full
https://www.audit.vic.gov.au/report/melbourne-metro-tunnel-project-phase-1-early-works?section=33221--2-strategic-planning-for-the-melbourne-metro-tunnel&show-sections=1#2-strategic-planning-for-the-melbourne-metro-tunnel

cheers
John
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

I'm completely unsurprised by "difficult and unforeseen geological conditions".  That was going to be a big issue with the East-West toll road, and I suspect the West Gate link will also throw up some interesting geological challenges.

The mid-2020s are going to be a chaotic time.  One just hopes the State's finances are in order then.

Incidentally, what's with Tim Pallas buying a Lexus instead of something more humble to get chauffeured around town in?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

Incidentally, what's with Tim Pallas buying a Lexus instead of something more humble to get chauffeured around town in?
Carnot

Perhaps a Roller or a Bentley might be more appropriate than a Japanese offering... Question

Mike.
  Lockie91 Train Controller

I'm completely unsurprised by "difficult and unforeseen geological conditions".  That was going to be a big issue with the East-West toll road, and I suspect the West Gate link will also throw up some interesting geological challenges.

The mid-2020s are going to be a chaotic time.  One just hopes the State's finances are in order then.

Incidentally, what's with Tim Pallas buying a Lexus instead of something more humble to get chauffeured around town in?
Carnot
Very much agree with you on this one. It was never going to come in on budget. The government deliberately broke up the project into multiple work packages to speed up the delivery of the project to try and make up for the fours years it sat on the shelf. It was always going to run over budget, lets see if it is delivered a year earlier as promised.

On a side note, a Lexus is just a sexier version of the humble Toyota Camry.
  8077 Chief Train Controller

Location: Crossing the Rubicon
Auditor-general reveals 30% cost blowout to early construction works:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/metro-tunnel-faces-huge-cost-blowout-watchdog-reveals-20190606-p51v0g.html

Umm, maybe it has something to do with the fact that labourers are on $150k...
chomper

And David Davis said

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