2019 Election - Labor promises $1Billion for 'bullet train' land acquisition

 

News article: Labor promises $1 billion for high-speed rail corridor between Brisbane, Sydney, Canberra and Melbourne

Labor will attempt again to revive a long-held ambition to build a high-speed rail network linking Canberra to the east coast capitals, by committing $1 billion to secure land for a corridor to make it happen if elected on May 18.

  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
We haven't lost the skills, if that was true, nothing new would ever happen here again. Ironically we are dealing with a list of Australia companies which a world leaders in their field, a field that didn't exist 4-5 years ago.

Yes we have lost the skills in Sydney. Most of the engineering for these new projects in sydney are using foreign companies. Why do you think the NSW government has been contracting spanish, french, italian and other foreign companies to build these projects.
simstrain
By and large it contracts to who ever gives the best price and doesn't care if domestic or foreign, including importing rail over buying local.

In the US and many other countries for example they open domestic bidders first and fully evaluate, if then they find they are unsuitable or expensive, then they look at foreign, depending on the contract.

There is another thread in RP talking about promoting buy Australian first, the reality is the Australia buyer doesn't give a crap where its made and neither does our govt. We grow what we sow!

Sponsored advertisement

  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
I never said rail jobs were gone because of high wages. I will agree that the DD rolling stock should have been made here but because we have lost the skills to do so in NSW it can no longer happen. People forget that around the time of the mining boom and the millenium train there was a great loss of the technical skill sets from this state.

While Victoria had auto manufacturing during that time Sydney was importing more and more and warehousing replaced manufacturing. The skills required to do this are nearly all gone and so for NSW we have to import everything now. So we go for the best bang for our buck and Victoria can not compete because they aren't innovative. The X05 LRV and the new regional rolling stock are much more modern then anything bombardier in Victoria is producing and so the contracts went to the new technology.
simstrain
If we've lost the skills, I can't imagine it would be too difficult to find people who are willing to learn them.


We haven't lost the skills, if that was true, nothing new would ever happen here again. Ironically we are dealing with a list of Australia companies which a world leaders in their field, a field that didn't exist 4-5 years ago.
Yes we have lost the skills in Sydney. Most of the engineering for these new projects in sydney are using foreign companies. Why do you think the NSW government has been contracting spanish, french, italian and other foreign companies to build these projects.
simstrain

Because it's cheaper to do it that way, our government doesn't want to pay Aussie workers if they don't have to.

It's just shameful that we can order suburban trains from China, metro trains from India, intercity trains from Korea, regional trains from Spain, light rail vehicles from France, and buses from Malaysia/Germany - yet they can't even raise the Newstart Allowance.

There is another thread in RP talking about promoting buy Australian first, the reality is the Australia buyer doesn't give a crap where its made and neither does our govt. We grow what we sow!
RTT_Rules
The average Aussie votes with their wallet, most of the time, it's cheapest to get whatever they can from Aldi or Kmart, either their pay is too low or the cost of living is too high for them to go out of their way to buy Australian made products.

The differences is that the government can change that by providing more jobs and lowering the cost of living.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

The average Aussie votes with their wallet, most of the time, it's cheapest to get whatever they can from Aldi or Kmart, either their pay is too low or the cost of living is too high for them to go out of their way to buy Australian made products.

The differences is that the government can change that by providing more jobs and lowering the cost of living.
Ethan1395

Similar to Coles and Safeway/Woolworths, Aldi has many locally sourced products, particularly in fresh produce, meats, cheese, alcohol (wine) etc.

Unfortunately the wine prices in particular are so low and the quality so high that one has to be careful not to become an alcoholic.

Mike.
  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich
Try reading the report again. An alignment is shown that is better than “straight lines on a map”, including the city approaches.
I don't need to, the average speed for the quoted Syd-Mel express as stated in the table is ~310km/h.

The current fasest HSR line in the world, talking average speed is a 930km long line in China (name escapes me right now, I'll find later). With no stops it was around 313km/h, topping 350km/h. It has since been reduced to around 300km/h with an extra stop and to save money.

So do the sums for a train from Syd to Mel travelling the alignment in the report, averaging 310km/h, how close do you need to get to both Syd and Mel at 350km/h to achieve the published times? Noting that for the entire route the train must hold nearly 350km/h inbetween. If the Chinese are struggling, then what hope does Australia have? Also note the average Chinese citizen won't complain when the govt builds a 900km long viaduct across the country side, the average Australian will be up in arms if they tried to do the same thing.
RTT_Rules
A typo? That calc is 301km/h not 310. For the record, the generally accepted requirement of a 3 hr transit, the average is 275km/h.

Chinese no longer struggling. There is a existing service which runs at an average of 317km/h and a list of others (not only in China) that run around the average of 275 km/h we need for 3hrs and have been doing so for years, so not unusual in the world of HSR. All averages here a start to stop point to point.

As to your last question, such a calc gets complex depending in what you assume for speed in or around the city and acceleration speed. However in reading the report it says that in tunnel it will be 250km/h (plenty do this) not all the lower speed stuff will be in tunnel but I used that value. Also assumed 20km of 115km/h average running close in. The report alignment supports such assumptions.

Therefore a 3 hr trip needs 350km/h cruise for 370km and for a 2hr 44m trip for 650km.

So my amateur answer to your question "how close do you need to get to both Syd and Mel at 350km/h to achieve the published times"
- for a 3 hr trip is 230km from the city
- for a 2hr 44m trip 90km from the city

As for the Albury- CBR and Albury-Mel trips  these require averages of 289 km/h and 247km/h respectively. Not really sure why you think this is impossible for an HSR?

Cheers
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
A typo? That calc is 301km/h not 310. For the record, the generally accepted requirement of a 3 hr transit, the average is 275km/h.

Chinese no longer struggling. There is a existing service which runs at an average of 317km/h and a list of others (not only in China) that run around the average of 275 km/h we need for 3hrs and have been doing so for years, so not unusual in the world of HSR. All averages here a start to stop point to point.

As to your last question, such a calc gets complex depending in what you assume for speed in or around the city and acceleration speed. However in reading the report it says that in tunnel it will be 250km/h (plenty do this) not all the lower speed stuff will be in tunnel but I used that value. Also assumed 20km of 115km/h average running close in. The report alignment supports such assumptions.

Therefore a 3 hr trip needs 350km/h cruise for 370km and for a 2hr 44m trip for 650km.

So my amateur answer to your question "how close do you need to get to both Syd and Mel at 350km/h to achieve the published times"
- for a 3 hr trip is 230km from the city
- for a 2hr 44m trip 90km from the city

As for the Albury- CBR and Albury-Mel trips  these require averages of 289 km/h and 247km/h respectively. Not really sure why you think this is impossible for an HSR?

Cheers
arctic
The fastest commercial train service measured by average train speed is the CRH express service on the Beijing–Shanghai high-speed railway, which reach a top speed of 350 km/h (220 mph) and complete the 1,302 km (809 mi) journey between Shanghai Hongqiao and Beijing South, with two stops, in 4 hours and 24 min for an average speed of 291.9 km/h (181.4 mph), the fastest train service measured by average trip speed in the world

So do I believe without the political strength and power of China, Australia can build a railway with an alignment to exceed the fastest average speed HSR train in the world, No!

For 350km/h you need bends of minimum curvature is >5500m.

Wagga Wagga or even Junee to Broadmeadows (Vic) is probably 300 to 350km/h running due to favorable terrain, but it won't be through the existing towns, rather by-passing them.

Junee to Campbelltown is alot more of a challenge due to development and terrain.

Mel to Can won't have a direct service, they will change. The frequency would be too poor to justify a direct service.

To maintain +100km to Sydney CBD, you need tunneling through at least the last 15-25km, Mel similar.

All up, the report has used the top end most favorable data and generally exceeds anything running today. Which considering its planned for 20 years is better. Then is no room for any local objection for development of eco sensitive areas.

Now heading north, good luck! May as well get a TBD at Central and come out north of Raymond Terrace.

It will still be heavily subsidized from day one, burning money for every fare sold. It is not essential to develop the country, nor to deal with rising housing prices. There are far cheaper more practical ways to help regional areas and even indeed spread the commutable distance to the big cities.
  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich
A typo? That calc is 301km/h not 310. For the record, the generally accepted requirement of a 3 hr transit, the average is 275km/h.

Chinese no longer struggling. There is a existing service which runs at an average of 317km/h and a list of others (not only in China) that run around the average of 275 km/h we need for 3hrs and have been doing so for years, so not unusual in the world of HSR. All averages here a start to stop point to point.

As to your last question, such a calc gets complex depending in what you assume for speed in or around the city and acceleration speed. However in reading the report it says that in tunnel it will be 250km/h (plenty do this) not all the lower speed stuff will be in tunnel but I used that value. Also assumed 20km of 115km/h average running close in. The report alignment supports such assumptions.

Therefore a 3 hr trip needs 350km/h cruise for 370km and for a 2hr 44m trip for 650km.

So my amateur answer to your question "how close do you need to get to both Syd and Mel at 350km/h to achieve the published times"
- for a 3 hr trip is 230km from the city
- for a 2hr 44m trip 90km from the city

As for the Albury- CBR and Albury-Mel trips  these require averages of 289 km/h and 247km/h respectively. Not really sure why you think this is impossible for an HSR?

Cheers
The fastest commercial train service measured by average train speed is the CRH express service on the Beijing–Shanghai high-speed railway, which reach a top speed of 350 km/h (220 mph) and complete the 1,302 km (809 mi) journey between Shanghai Hongqiao and Beijing South, with two stops, in 4 hours and 24 min for an average speed of 291.9 km/h (181.4 mph), the fastest train service measured by average trip speed in the world

So do I believe without the political strength and power of China, Australia can build a railway with an alignment to exceed the fastest average speed HSR train in the world, No!

For 350km/h you need bends of minimum curvature is >5500m.

Wagga Wagga or even Junee to Broadmeadows (Vic) is probably 300 to 350km/h running due to favorable terrain, but it won't be through the existing towns, rather by-passing them.

Junee to Campbelltown is alot more of a challenge due to development and terrain.

Mel to Can won't have a direct service, they will change. The frequency would be too poor to justify a direct service.

To maintain +100km to Sydney CBD, you need tunneling through at least the last 15-25km, Mel similar.

All up, the report has used the top end most favorable data and generally exceeds anything running today. Which considering its planned for 20 years is better. Then is no room for any local objection for development of eco sensitive areas.

Now heading north, good luck! May as well get a TBD at Central and come out north of Raymond Terrace.

It will still be heavily subsidized from day one, burning money for every fare sold. It is not essential to develop the country, nor to deal with rising housing prices. There are far cheaper more practical ways to help regional areas and even indeed spread the commutable distance to the big cities.
RTT_Rules
Dont think you read Bevans original post or my post properly, nor have you read the report either Smile. For someone who posts a negative reply on every post on HSR, this is honestly surprising.

As one point, my reference for highest point to point speeds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_speed_record. Towards the end, Clearly shows 317km/h and the other references. Reproduced below.
  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich
If you need further proof that the 317km/h service exists (if you dont like Wiki) then here is a provisional booking I made on it -1018km in 3hrs and 13 minutes:
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
If you need further proof that the 317km/h service exists (if you dont like Wiki) then here is a provisional booking I made on it -1018km in 3hrs and 13 minutes:
arctic

What ever happened to Hard & Soft classes Question

M.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
If you need further proof that the 317km/h service exists (if you dont like Wiki) then here is a provisional booking I made on it -1018km in 3hrs and 13 minutes:

What ever happened to Hard & Soft classes Question

M.
The Vinelander
You See Comrade, We Are all equal but some of us Are not members of the party thus 1st class is for Party members not the Bourgeoisie while second is for everyone. 3rd not exists as there is Defiantly no poverty in china
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Dont think you read Bevans original post or my post properly, nor have you read the report either Smile. For someone who posts a negative reply on every post on HSR, this is honestly surprising.

As one point, my reference for highest point to point speeds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_speed_record. Towards the end, Clearly shows 317km/h and the other references. Reproduced below.
arctic

Hi,
Thanks for this, I found references that both the first two were slowed with extra stops but also speed to save operating cost. Average speeds now around 300km/h, I am not sure if this is still existing.

But again, the plan is to build a HSR at the top end of the technologies limitation. Have you been to China and seen how they build the HSR (I have and its the same all over China, its mostly on Viaducts), could you imagine the Australian public response to building a HSR in a similar manner across the country side to get the alignment, speed and grade separation. There is no way in hell the residents of the North Coast of NSW will allow this.

However as I've stated before, on cost for the population is where the real challenge lies. IF you read the details of the Chinese HSR, they talk in some cases 70+ trains a day each way no less. We will be struggling for 1/h.

And again, what is the point of throwing our resources at one line when there is so much to do with the commuter networks and doing something about regional rail and freight. Yes they are not mutually exclusive of each other. Focus on MSR, at least the one pair of tracks ticks all the boxes, commuter, regional and freight. HSR ignores all but regional just to try and match air between Syd and Mel and fail to do this Syd to Brisbane. Thus we fall back into the trap that it will take someone less time to travel Wagga to Sydney than it will take a commuter from Mittagong or even Picton. Most of the countries going down the HSR route had most of these basics.

And if HSR so good, let the private sector do it with the bulk of their own money, they provide the air services that HSR will compete with.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Basically I don't see or believe Steel Wheel on rail technology as it stands today and likely in next 10-20 years is going to be the answer for faster land based transport between Brisbane and Melbourne.

- Syd - Mel -> on par with air in timing, just, volumes are at the lower end
- Syd - Can -> distance wise well suited to HSR, but unlikely to have the demand to justify the cost with building to Mel and would MSR be suited?
- Syd - BNE -> will not be competitive with air any time soon and will suffer from construction opposition and costly terrain, although larger intermediate popular will help justify a decent frequency, but unlikely the cost.

Steel wheel on rail technology appears to be hitting a number of technical glass ceilings for increases in speed beyond 350km/h. It can be done sure, but the pace to commericalise it appears very slow. The Chinese have shown that operating costs are reason enough to slow down 10-20km/h and retain averages around 300km/h a few months after opening to save face and money.

I strongly suspect by the 2030's any notion to build HSR as refereed to as steel on rail will be a blast from the past and the focus maybe on Maglev or Hyperloop or something else that is actually advantageous against air in travel time, not just at best on par.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Come on Shane, you're surely more rational than to mention Hyperloop when your case is that steel-wheel's operating costs are too high!

The proposition that maintaining a vacuum tube sufficiently airtight to safely accelerate several tons of passenger vehicle to high speed is going to be affordable is simply ludicrous. On this site, of all places, people should know what it takes (and what it costs) to maintain two sufficiently parallel rails over any distance - let alone a continuous tube structure and hundreds of fan stacks.

I'm not doubting that other technological solutions might emerge, but it's also worth noticing that steel-wheel has been the fastest commercially viable large-scale ground transport available ever since its introduction, despite vast technological advances in other fields. I struggle to think of any other technologies from the beginning of the Industrial Revolution that are fundamentally unchanged since. I would argue it is far more likely that steel-wheel continues to advance, gradually, as it has done now for nearly 2 centuries.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Come on Shane, you're surely more rational than to mention Hyperloop when your case is that steel-wheel's operating costs are too high!....
The proposition that maintaining a vacuum tube sufficiently airtight to safely accelerate several tons of passenger vehicle to high speed is going to be affordable is simply ludicrous. On this site, of all places, people should know what it takes (and what it costs) to maintain two sufficiently parallel rails over any distance - let alone a continuous tube structure and hundreds of fan stacks.

I'm not doubting that other technological solutions might emerge, but it's also worth noticing that steel-wheel has been the fastest commercially viable large-scale ground transport available ever since its introduction, despite vast technological advances in other fields. I struggle to think of any other technologies from the beginning of the Industrial Revolution that are fundamentally unchanged since. I would argue it is far more likely that steel-wheel continues to advance, gradually, as it has done now for nearly 2 centuries.
potatoinmymouth
Yeah, I know what you are saying about Hyperloop and don't disagree. It would however my country of residence govt is however convinced and plan on building a freight only test system between the two Dubai Airports.

The problem with steel wheel on rail works wheel at lower speeds, but at higher and higher speeds other issues come into play exponentially. ie heat, energy, vibration, dynamics...
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The jet airliner is only going to get more economical as technology advances. Nasa and Honda along with Caltech have just announced their new battery tech which is significantly safer then lithium ion. It has the possibility to make electric planes viable and at the very least they will make electric cars safer, cheaper and more environmentally friendly.
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
Outside of Sydney, public transport looks like this:



How can anyone honestly advocate for high speed rail? This topic has gone in a million different directions than I'm sure the original poster would have ever thought of.

Our current issues in Australia are:
-Very high rates of unemployment outside of capital cities
-Government flat out refuses to build public transport infrastructure outside of capital cities
-Local manufacturing disappearing constantly

Is High Speed Rail going to fix any of this?

Focus on MSR, at least the one pair of tracks ticks all the boxes, commuter, regional and freight. HSR ignores all but regional just to try and match air between Syd and Mel and fail to do this Syd to Brisbane.
RTT_Rules
This truly is common sense, as I've said before, MSR can still be competitive with air travel if the price is right.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

It would however my country of residence govt is however convinced and plan on building a freight only test system between the two Dubai Airports.
RTT_Rules

If it gets that far, I suspect it’ll end up being like the maglev - promising in small doses but ultimately so challenging to maintain it’s limited to urban areas near engineering facilities.

I don’t doubt either that the UAE authorities will be able to set it up and get it running over a short distance with their vast sums of money and ready access to a large pool of engineers, if they so desire.

I’m not totally pessimistic about it, but the real test will be how it would deal with problems. Could you run a reduced service while fixing a leak for example? Or would you have to isolate an entire section, stopping service for hours or days on end? I know these are difficult questions to answer given the stage the tech is at, but you’d have to get it to a point where the relationship between fault frequency and the difficulty of fixing the fault (in terms of manpower, parts, passenger disruption, and so on) was comparable to rail, before you even considered implementing it over any real distance.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
It would however my country of residence govt is however convinced and plan on building a freight only test system between the two Dubai Airports.

If it gets that far, I suspect it’ll end up being like the maglev - promising in small doses but ultimately so challenging to maintain it’s limited to urban areas near engineering facilities.

I don’t doubt either that the UAE authorities will be able to set it up and get it running over a short distance with their vast sums of money and ready access to a large pool of engineers, if they so desire.

I’m not totally pessimistic about it, but the real test will be how it would deal with problems. Could you run a reduced service while fixing a leak for example? Or would you have to isolate an entire section, stopping service for hours or days on end? I know these are difficult questions to answer given the stage the tech is at, but you’d have to get it to a point where the relationship between fault frequency and the difficulty of fixing the fault (in terms of manpower, parts, passenger disruption, and so on) was comparable to rail, before you even considered implementing it over any real distance.
potatoinmymouth
People get Dubai and the UAE mixed up. Dubai is a semi-autonomous emirate. It does not have access to the Abu Dhabi oil wealth, no longer has oil reserves of significance, does not have the cash flows like western countries due to a lack of taxes and relies very much on private investment to support major projects including expo 2020.

While the Abu Dhabi govt has nearly $1T in oil wealth in the bank, its use is limited to investments that must show positive rates of return and typically as a check they get 40-60% foreign funding via loans to provide the backstop check on the project (basically how my employer was set up with 60% Duestch Bank funding + investment from the USA OS investment board for the power station). They have become increasingly cautious about throwing money at projects that are likely to fail, do not meet govt objectives in Nationalisation workforce targets as well as political requirements. This is mostly due to the financial drain the conflict in Yemen is doing and a long period of low oil prices.

So, they will encourage and support the various Hyperloop projects, but there will not be large sums of cash thrown at them to make them get up.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Likely HSR to Mel come 2030, "if" they crack it, wheel on rail HSR will have hit its peak, "if" they crack it.

http://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/china-highspeed-maglev-prototype/index.html

A new floating bullet train capable of hitting speeds of 600 kilometers per hour (about 372 miles/hour) is one step closer to reality in China.
On Thursday, the body prototype for the country's latest high-speed magnetic-levitation (maglev) train project rolled off the assembly line in the eastern Chinese city of Qingdao. Developed by the state-owned China Railway Rolling Stock Corporation (CRRC) -- the world's largest supplier of rail transit equipment -- the sleek-looking train is scheduled to go into commercial production in 2021 following extensive tests.
Related content

Japan tests world's fastest bullet train
Those involved with the project are optimistic it will completely transform China's travel landscape, filling the gap between high-speed rail and air transportation. "Take Beijing to Shanghai as an example -- counting preparation time for the journey, it takes about 4.5 hours by plane, about 5.5 hours by high-speed rail, and [would only take] about 3.5 hours with [the new] high-speed maglev," said CRRC deputy chief engineer Ding Sansan, head of the train's research and development team, in a statement. While the cruising speed of an aircraft is 800-900 km/h, at present trains on the Beijing-Shanghai line have a maximum operating speed of 350 km/h.


Maglev trains use magnetic repulsion both to levitate the train up from the ground, which reduces friction, and to propel it forward.
After nearly three years of technical research, Ding said the team had developed a lightweight and high-strength train body that lays the technical foundation for the development of five sets of maglev engineering prototypes. So what comes next? CRRC Qingdao Sifang -- a subsidiary of the CRRC -- is currently constructing an experimental center and a high-speed maglev trial production center, which are expected to begin operating the second half of this year.

Japan's maglev ambitions
In the 1960s Japan revolutionized train technology with the bullet train. Japan's newest Maglev promises to break world records.
China's new prototype won't be the first train to surpass the 600-kilometer mark when it hits the testing track.
A Japan Railway maglev train achieved a top spot of 603 km/hour on an experimental track in Yamanashi in 2015, setting a new world record. Japan is now developing a new Chuo Shinkansen maglev line, with trains set to hit top speeds of about 500 kph.
The first phase of the project, connecting Tokyo and Nagoya, is scheduled to be completed in 2027 and is expected to cut traveling time between those cities by half.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The train has to evolve but building the biggest and baddest rail system isn't necessarily the answer. So much money is needed for the vhst and there is new technology incoming in cars, planes, trucks and even trains to make that investment wasteful. Links provided below for your browsing pleasure. Some line straightening is necessary but should follow the roads that have already been built to reduce environmental impacts.

A vhst train can never be considered clean until the black and brown bars in this link drop down to almost 0% and not near the 80-90% they currently are at or unless the vhst company itself generates it's own renewable energy. The required land clearing is another negative to any vhst project against it's green credentials and will affect wildlife. The VHST is a huge waste of money and needs to be forgotten about because private industry is going to make it null and void in the very near future.

Electric trucks
https://www.machines4u.com.au/mag/meanwhilein-australia-electric-trucks-are-already-a-thing/
https://reneweconomy.com.au/latrobe-valley-electric-truck-maker-gets-multiple-orders-from-us-81577/
https://www.greenbiz.com/article/big-truck-makers-are-starting-take-electric-trucks-seriously

Electric Plane


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1g1JrRRkY&t=2s

Hydrogen Train


https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/News/fuel-cell-train-passes-first-test

New battery technology
https://www.assemblymag.com/articles/94724-new-battery-breakthrough-could-replace-lithium-ion
https://www.saftbatteries.com/media-resources/our-stories/three-battery-technologies-could-power-future

electricity generation
https://reneweconomy.com.au/nem-watch/

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