Geelong high speed rail and electrification

 
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Where do the feds get the money from PIM? The feds have the money because they are the collectors of TAX in this country. If NSW collected tax instead of the federal government then we would absolutely be self funded and Victoria would likely be the same. The other states and territories on the other hand not so much.

In any case my issue is not with how the states are funded but solely with Vinelander's claim about Victorian tax money being spent in NSW. What proof is there of this? Does he think that we don't pay tax north of the border? Has Daniel Andrews been secretly giving NSW money that we don't know about?

Geelong is a simple solution. Run the overhead the extra 40km's from Werribee to Geelong and build the new trains with seats capable of handling 1 hour journeys and make them capable of 160km/h just like the vlocity.
simstrain
Clearly we're in furious agreement on the tax matter, just trying to bring some numbers to the table as I usually do.

I think you're showing your lack of knowledge of the situation though with your Werribee solution. Werribee trains are effectively full and thanks to the madness that is the Altona Loop and Williamstown there's room for maybe 1 additional service at best in the mornings there. Then you have Geelong itself, which even without Wyndham Vale and Tarneit is running full trains. So there's no way they could be combined/extended on the current infrastructure.

Similarly, just stringing up wires via Wyndham Vale doesn't help at all because there is a track capacity issue on the up side of Sunshine.

So extra capacity via some route inbound of West Werribee Junction is necessary. There is provision for a second surface pair along the Tarneit route which makes that the obvious solution. Then you just have to deal with the Sunshine section.

The state government policy on this is good, as discussed at length above, and so it just needs to be funded (bringing things full circle). If ScoMo's $2b can go towards it, excellent. Just tell him it's a "fast train" and let him cut the ribbon if he's still around in 2030 and he'll go home happy.

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  simstrain Chief Commissioner

according to tripview there are 12-13 trains an hour from southern cross to newport. Do all services heading out on that line stop at newport? If it is then how is melbourne metro only getting 13 trains an hour? If it isn't then how many services actually run along that line? What bottlenecks in the CBD need to be fixed to solve this issue. Will the melbourne metro tunnel help get more services along that line?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

how many carriages are on the werribee services at the moment PIM?
simstrain

Six.

Extending them (say to nine) would be probably impractical because of through running with Frankston (Sandringham post-2025), doubling the number of platform extensions you need to do; and extensions at Flinders St are nearly impossible, unless you reinstate track 11 and combine 10/12 and 11/13. A lot of expense for a solution that would barely cater for current patronage let alone growth. I don’t have the figures handy but the Geelong stations themselves are filling trains.

There’s also the hassle of the Altona Loop, which to my mind should be closed altogether and replaced with express buses to Paisley and Galvin, but that’s politically impossible. So you still have to deal with stupid shuttle services at Newport.  

Point is, I don’t think any cheap solutions are available. The problem is not speed, it’s capacity, and there are hard limitations on the current infrastructure.

That leaves a Sunshine solution or a Newport solution (Metro 2). Sunshine is logical because the Melton corridor is under similar pressures, even if they’re not as politically important. Maybe one day Metro 2 services will run to Geelong, but that means interfacing the very different Mernda line.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

according to tripview there are 12-13 trains an hour from southern cross to newport. Do all services heading out on that line stop at newport? If it is then how is melbourne metro only getting 13 trains an hour? If it isn't then how many services actually run along that line? What bottlenecks in the CBD need to be fixed to solve this issue. Will the melbourne metro tunnel help get more services along that line?
simstrain

You completely changed your post while I was answering!

Newport is the source of the shemozzle, not the CBD, for once.

As I said above, the whole thing is made hopelessly difficult by trying to run 3tph via Altona.

There’s also space for a couple (maybe 1tph) more Werribee paths which haven’t been used because of a lack of will.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I understand it is a capacity issue and not speed which is why I am wondering why there is only 12-13 trains an hour in peak. Do the trains going via newport have to share space with craigieburn trains? Could this be helped post metro tunnel opening?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

I understand it is a capacity issue and not speed which is why I am wondering why there is only 12-13 trains an hour in peak. Do the trains going via newport have to share space with craigieburn trains? Could this be helped post metro tunnel opening?
simstrain
No, there is no interaction with Craigieburn on weekdays. The only interactions of Werribee/Altona/Williamstown are with Frankston (and hence indirectly Cranbourne/Pakenham) at Flinders Street, where some trains run through. The Metro Tunnel will have no effect except that the group will become Werribee/Williamstown/Sandringham; Frankston will have its own segregated Loop route.

The constraint as I said above is largely at Newport, a flow-on effect of the single-track Altona Loop. The (theoretical) signalling capacity of Footscray to Newport is 24tph from memory, so that is not a problem. However, merging Williamstown, Werribee and Altona services with only two platforms at Newport causes serious timetabling problems.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

I understand it is a capacity issue and not speed which is why I am wondering why there is only 12-13 trains an hour in peak. Do the trains going via newport have to share space with craigieburn trains? Could this be helped post metro tunnel opening?
simstrain
The biggest bottleneck is the fact that Newport is essentially a 3 way junction, and the Altona loop is single track. Theoretically you could probably do 16tph, but anymore and delays would turn the network into a smeg show.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

So metro 2 is the only hope?

Do werribee trains go via altona or the express route?
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

So metro 2 is the only hope?

Do werribee trains go via altona or the express route?
simstrain
Metro 2 helps yes.

Werribee generally run via Express route, and Laverton via Altona Loop. In peak they run more trains in the main direction more than the minor to get the most out of the single track.
  8077 Chief Train Controller

Location: Crossing the Rubicon
Would the proposed electrification of the Geelong Line (long overdue) be completed to allow the running of Geelong services to the city via both the newport and Deer Park routes?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Would the proposed electrification of the Geelong Line (long overdue) be completed to allow the running of Geelong services to the city via both the newport and Deer Park routes?
8077

I’m going to politely suggest you read the 16+ pages of discussion on the subject before we go through it all again.
  Mickeyb91 Station Staff

Just to clear a few things in the last few posts:

No, there is no interaction with Craigieburn on weekdays.
potatoinmymouth

Yes there is. The 5:27pm Craigieburn leaves platform 8 and 9 on weekdays. Also a number of Sunbury trains run via Southern Cross platform 13 in the morning.

Werribee generally run via Express route, and Laverton via Altona Loop. In peak they run more trains in the main direction more than the minor to get the most out of the single track.
John.Z

If we’re talking about the Altona loop, it’s a 22 minute frequency on weekdays in both directions when Werribee express trains are running. No extra services in the peak direction are run.

I think I saw somewhere that the signalling capacity between Newport and Footscray is 18 trains per hour (theoretical), so 16 maximum per hour in practice sounds about right.
  Mickeyb91 Station Staff

Can’t find the edit button for the forum on my phone so I’ll critique my own post:

- Platform 8 and 9 and Flinders street

- Capacity for Newport to Footscray signalling is listed somewhere within the Railpage forum (good luck finding it Wink )
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Can’t find the edit button for the forum on my phone so I’ll critique my own post:

- Platform 8 and 9 and Flinders street

- Capacity for Newport to Footscray signalling is listed somewhere within the Railpage forum (good luck finding it Wink )
Mickeyb91
Newport to Footscray effectively 18 tph .  Laverton - Werribee is only 13tph legacy of the bigger windows required with the former mix of Metro sparks and high speed 130 kmh VLP dmu operations .

Werribee line gets a signalling upgrade to 18 tph as part of Metro 1 works .
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Can’t find the edit button for the forum on my phone so I’ll critique my own post:

- Platform 8 and 9 and Flinders street

- Capacity for Newport to Footscray signalling is listed somewhere within the Railpage forum (good luck finding it Wink )
Newport to Footscray effectively 18 tph .  Laverton - Werribee is only 13tph legacy of the bigger windows required with the former mix of Metro sparks and high speed 130 kmh VLP dmu operations .

Werribee line gets a signalling upgrade to 18 tph as part of Metro 1 works .
kuldalai

Interesting. Plenty of scope to extend to geelong so long as the train isn't express running as the VLP used to be. At the very least the overhead could be extended to little river to allow an interchange with the VLP.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Can’t find the edit button for the forum on my phone so I’ll critique my own post:

- Platform 8 and 9 and Flinders street

- Capacity for Newport to Footscray signalling is listed somewhere within the Railpage forum (good luck finding it Wink )
Newport to Footscray effectively 18 tph .  Laverton - Werribee is only 13tph legacy of the bigger windows required with the former mix of Metro sparks and high speed 130 kmh VLP dmu operations .

Werribee line gets a signalling upgrade to 18 tph as part of Metro 1 works .

Interesting. Plenty of scope to extend to geelong so long as the train isn't express running as the VLP used to be. At the very least the overhead could be extended to little river to allow an interchange with the VLP.
simstrain
The idea that has long been mooted is to extend it instead "around the corner" to Wyndham Vale to facilitate connectivity with future Geelong services and Wyndham Vale suburbans. And cross-suburban connectivity.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

Interesting. Plenty of scope to extend to geelong so long as the train isn't express running as the VLP used to be. At the very least the overhead could be extended to little river to allow an interchange with the VLP.
simstrain
If you were to extend for an interchange, you would go to Lara (pop: 20k), not Little River (pop: 100).
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Any extension of the Werribee Line will go 'around the corner' as PIMM has said above. Allows new stations in the growth area south of the racecourse, and connections to the new stabling being built to the north of Wyndham Vale.



9 News reporting that the budget will contain funding towards upgrades to the Geelong/Ballarat Lines. Lots of interviews from Minister, RPV, Rail Futures.



The Gist seems to be that they will be working on Electrifying Wyndham Vale, Melton, and building the Airport Line, and it is a matter of scheduling them, with whatever gets finished first going into the Metro Tunnel. I think the implication of that is it doesn't have to stay in the Metro Tunnel Corridor, but they will use the capacity as it comes up rather than not using it.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

My assumption is that electrification to Wyndham Vale and Melton would be done first. Metro and VLine trains would share tracks between Sunshine and WV/Melton. WV/Melton would then use MM1 through to Dandenong. Might mitigate the need for a West Footscray turnback for daily use, still good to have for contingency.

Once Airport Rail is built, Geelong and Ballarat trains can use Airport Rail between Southern Cross and Sunshine, allowing WV and/or Melton to use electrified RRL tracks (or Airport tracks, leaving Geelong/Ballarat on current RRL).

Quadruplication between Sunshine + WV/Melton would allow for Fast Rail to Geelong and Ballarat (or at the very least, a segregated VLocity service once again, with express running to WV/Melton).

Those 3 stages in that order seem to make the msot sense to me.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Can’t find the edit button for the forum on my phone so I’ll critique my own post:

- Platform 8 and 9 and Flinders street

- Capacity for Newport to Footscray signalling is listed somewhere within the Railpage forum (good luck finding it Wink )
Newport to Footscray effectively 18 tph .  Laverton - Werribee is only 13tph legacy of the bigger windows required with the former mix of Metro sparks and high speed 130 kmh VLP dmu operations .

Werribee line gets a signalling upgrade to 18 tph as part of Metro 1 works .

Interesting. Plenty of scope to extend to geelong so long as the train isn't express running as the VLP used to be. At the very least the overhead could be extended to little river to allow an interchange with the VLP.
simstrain
No. the plan has always been 1500v DC sparks Southern Cross (15/16) via RRL to  Black Forest Road and extended around to Werribee .  Separate VLP track pair Sunshine to Black Forest Road with Interchange between VLP and Metro at Black Forest Road . When Geelong electrification comes no doubt 25kva electrics via Airtrain tunnel to Sunshine then on VLP express track pair to Black Forest Road , then 25kva electrification existing tracks BFR to Waurn Ponds .
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

This is great to have RPV publicly confirming some details.

FWIW I don’t think it will be a “temporary” arrangement at Sunshine; once you’ve built the junction for either Melton or WV to join the Suburban lines it’s there to stay (and the capacities work out nicely).

Also leaves scope for Ballarat to remain at surface post-Airport Tunnel if electrification hasn’t eventuated by then.
  trainbrain Deputy Commissioner

I beg to differ on the electricagtion of the RRL to Windyvale, if any extension is done of the sparky system it will only be around from the Werribee end, The RRL is the domain of the Geelong line.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Interesting. Plenty of scope to extend to geelong so long as the train isn't express running as the VLP used to be. At the very least the overhead could be extended to little river to allow an interchange with the VLP.
If you were to extend for an interchange, you would go to Lara (pop: 20k), not Little River (pop: 100).
John.Z

Don't you mean 1,332 for little river and 16k for Lara. Not that I am arguing against your point but at least try to get numbers somewhat right. In any case I would still then go with my original thought of extending the overhead to Geelong. Even an electric train isn't going to take too much longer then 20 minutes stopping all to Geelong.
  Tony M. Locomotive Fireman

It'll be interesting to see how much difference the Wyndham Vale electrification makes to passenger numbers  - based entirely on my limited observations taking the Geelong train, WV seems to now be a very firm second to Tarniet as far as boardings go, and many of the Tarniet passengers get off at Sunshine or Footscray (and vice versa).

Making Wyndham Vale part of the Metro service will probably be yet another short term solution at best, especially if they ever get around to building the other stations rumoured between WV and Deer Park.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

In 2016-17 there there 887,566 boardings at Tarneit compared with 541,400 at Wyndham Vale, which is the latest data available.

https://philipmallis.com/blog/2019/02/14/station-patronage-in-victoria-2013-2018/

Roughly speaking that would be about 5000 weekday boardings between them; even if all 5000 are in the peak 2 hours, if it's spread across 12 trains in that time we've still got oodles of room.

Any infill stations will probably draw most of their patronage away from the existing two when they get built.

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