SAR take-out van operational model

 
  SAR523 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Chicago, IL
I'm trying to work out how the take out vans were used, and how best to represent them on my model railway.

From captions and comments on photos it appears that it was often a DWf van directly behind the loco, but I'm not finding much in the modelling convention notes or my rulebook appendix.  I'm interested in whatever information people have to share, but my specific questions are

1. Were they always ordered directly behind the engine?  If so, why - did the engine crew help with unloading?

2. Were the only only passenger (making it a mixed train I guess) or was it also included in goods trains?

3. When arriving at a station where there was shunting work, how quickly were they unloaded?  e.g. were the take out van's brakes engaged and it was left in place while everything else was shunted around it?

4. Were they placed in a specific location for the return trip, e.g. behind the engine again

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  SA_trains Deputy Commissioner

Location: ACT
Hi! In response to your questions....

1. I thought that they were usually marshalled near the Brake Van so that the Guard helped with unloading. Also, Goods Brakes had compartments for parcels etc, so would make sense for a take out van to be near the brake van for efficiency in handling goods. BUT if your photos have it behind the loco I guess that is where it should be marshalled....

2. I believe that take-out were on a Goods train. Passenger train's Brake Vans usually had plenty of storage for Parcels etc.

3. Sorry, don't know

4. Sorry, don't know
  allan Chief Commissioner

I'm far from being on top of this subject, myself, but have some ideas.

Firstly, use of take-out and pick-up vans changed over time. They were not used on railcars (usually), passenger trains, special trains or through goods trains, though I guess that the cool cars pulled by railcars or at the head of passenger trains, for milk or cream, were take-out vans of a kind. And there were exceptions. So, only used on ordinary, all-stopping, scheduled goods trains. By the 1970s there were not a lot of these, and some ran to an overnight schedule.

Take-out vans were always louvered vans (or maybe cool cars), and were sealed at the start of a trip and resealed at attended stations on-route. While take-out vans were usually marshalled at the front of the train, there were plenty of exceptions. The good oil on take-out vans is to be found in the Working Time Tables (WTTs). Allegedly, the take-out van was behind the loco so that the guard got some exercise...

Take-outs and pick-ups were a pain in the neck: for some stations there may have been no shunting necessary, and drivers were required to stop with the van adjacent to the take-out shed. The return trip was as another train, with another take-out van, and, presumably, mostly pick-ups.

If you can give me the era and places of your layout I may be able to dig out some more specific information.
  DJPeters Assistant Commissioner

Allan has got it in a pinch, they were usually use to deliver stuff that 3 people could move things like the new fridge you ordered or similar. These were place in the take out van with a suitable docket attached to them to tell where they had to go. Not all take out sheds were the same though at a manned station the goods if after hours would be placed into the shed after unlocking it and relocking after so that the station master could advise the customer to come and get it and pay the transport bill for it. Some stations were un manned though and the thing would still be locked in the shed but the nearest manned station to the unmanned station would get the paper work to go get it and a railway porter or ASM would inform the customer or go with the customer to unlock the shed and get the transport payment and help get it out and relock the shed up again and return back to their station again. Some times staff would notify the owner when the train was due and it was simply taken out of the wayside van and loaded direct onto a ute or truck that the customer had, this was usually prepaid transport cost though.

Like allan said they were usually up the front of certain goods trains only, local country goods trains that is ones that shunted nearly every station on a line would have one, the car itself was either sealed or locked and sometimes both. But also as allan said there were exceptions more so on return journeys when arriving at a terminus to return to where you started a lot of crews simply just changed the brakevan and loco end to end and so the take out van on the return might well be just inside the brakevan. This was usually done if time was a bit tight or the crew were a bit lazy. The loco crew and the guard where required to move anything in a take out van hence able to be moved safely by three men.

These vans were used for anything bigger than a certain sized parcel. I can't remember the actual size or weight of a standard parcel before it became heavy and large enough to go in the wayside van. The guards van would have smaller parcels only in them that one person could easily lift.

Oh and a good crew would stop the wayside van as close to the delivery shed as possible and then to save the guard walking back to his brakevan they would slowly pull forward till the brakevan was level with the guard for him to get on. If you upset the loco crew as guard you did a lot of walking back to your brakevan though. These wayside sheds were usually a corrugated iron shed on a platform usually located at  approx where the van would be when the train stopped  but not always though.

Would be interesting to do on a model, but you would need to have several scale minutes pass to load or unload things if you did model it.
  SAR523 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Chicago, IL
Thanks all, that’s all very enlightening!

Allan; I’m modeling a very vague steam-diesel transition era period and have Blackwood, a generic country station like Yelta and Marino (for the passenger traffic).

Looks like there wouldn’t be any take out traffic at Marino due to the lack of station infrastructure (a passenger shelter), but both Blackwood and Yelta could potentially support take out traffic.

I’m assuming at Blackwood anything would be stored in the Goods shed (although presumably it was replaced by road transport by the 50s/60s, I’m happy to ignore that), whereas somewhere like Yelta (if not the prototype) presumably had a dedicated take out shed.

I was mostly looking for some more ‘interesting’ operational depth to add to the train instructions, so anything you have that you can share is appreciated.

Really got to get a copy of a WTT one day Smile
  hbedriver Train Controller

Yelta? Have the State boundaries moved?
  allan Chief Commissioner

Yelta? Have the State boundaries moved?
hbedriver
Yelta, AKA Cross Roads, was the last stop before Moonta.
  dylan Train Controller

Location: South Australia
Yelta and Cross Roads were two different stations, although the shelter sheds were basically the same at both.

The stations in order were Cross Roads, Yelta, Moonta.

That said, I would’ve assumed Cross Roads and Yelta were passenger traffic only, but I don’t have the Goods and Rates book handy, which would clear the matter up.
  allan Chief Commissioner

Yes, you are correct. Moonta - Yelta - Cross Roads - Warburto - Wallaroo. Half a mile between the two unattended stations, four minutes by Brill car from Cross Roads to Moonta. Yelta was a conditional stop by 1953.

There was, once, a station called Paramatta between Wallaroo and Waburto.
  DJPeters Assistant Commissioner

Some stations on the SAR did not have station staff as such but a caretaker to look after the station this was mainly in the country but there were some in the Adelaide metro are as well. But please remember the Adelaide metro area was a lot smaller back then than it is now. Going to a place like Morphett Vale when I was a youngster was going out into the country and it was back then just farmland and some farm houses and not much more, today this area is part of suburbia and a sea of houses.

Now getting back to the caretakers they only worked certain times on a partime type of basis, so loads for these stations would be sent in a take out van as these stations generally did not have a goods shed and a lot did not even have sidings. So to get something you wanted on the farm like spares for tractor or farm equipment etc had to be sent there and something secure had to be provided to put them in hence the take out shed, as I said previously arrangements were made to open or pay the freight costs, some stations did not even have a caretaker they might just be a platform in the middle of no where with a shed on it or a shed beside the track somewhere.

So on takeouts as they are called you could introduce it on a model railway it would add a bit of a delay having to drop of or pick up these take outs. It would be a good way on a large layout to slow down a model train if the driver is a bit of a speeder and it would still look prototypical though.

It also means that on a single track layout those behind or coming toward your train might get held up a bit, but usually the scavenger as these trains were called would be passed at regular intervals at passing places as they plodded along. These trains were not fast in operation as they would shunt all the stations along the line. The scavenger type of train would have to keep the mainline clear at stations with sidings so other trains could get past it and not be held up. The timetable at times could be pretty close if on a single track mainline and if something happened well there goes the timetable for starters.
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
Yes, you are correct. Moonta - Yelta - Cross Roads - Warburto - Wallaroo. Half a mile between the two unattended stations, four minutes by Brill car from Cross Roads to Moonta. Yelta was a conditional stop by 1953.

There was, once, a station called Paramatta between Wallaroo and Waburto.
allan
The Paramatta mine was (still is???) just north east of Yelta and east of Cross Road.   I assume this was where the Paramatta station was, or possibly a siding into it when it was operating.

Warburto is some distance north closer to Wallaroo.

Warburto may have had a siding, Yelta and Cross Road were just passenger halts.
  allan Chief Commissioner

Yes, I was wrong again. Paramatta station was between Warburto and Cross Roads. As of 1914 there was a long dead-end siding: a mine would explain this.

There was another mine, run by the same company, at Yelta.

Photos at https://collections.slsa.sa.gov.au/find/paramatta+mine

Waburto had a long (? passing) siding protected by derails in 1914.

Yelta had a passing loop and three short dead-end sidings in 1914, so there must have been some traffic at that time.
  SAR523 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Chicago, IL
Yes, Yelta in SA Smile

The signaldiagramsandphotos page appears to have not paid their provider fee, but my track plan is here https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/22555, not that it's that useful for this discussion (couple of passing sidings, sprouting dead end sidings)

But in my plan Yelta isn't getting too much station infrastructure (perhaps a Grade 3 goods shed) and the platform and passenger station are off layout in the middle of the isle.  

And providing sufficient sidings to keep the mainline clear is one of the goals of the layout; I'm planning a regular passenger shuttle between the main yard ('Adelaide') and Marino, with all the nice passenger and goods car shunting that happened there.
  SAR523 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Chicago, IL
Yes, Yelta in SA Smile

The signaldiagramsandphotos page appears to have not paid their provider fee, but my track plan is here https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/22555, not that it's that useful for this discussion (couple of passing sidings, sprouting dead end sidings)

But in my plan Yelta isn't getting too much station infrastructure (perhaps a Grade 3 goods shed) and the platform and passenger station are off layout in the middle of the isle.  

And providing sufficient sidings to keep the mainline clear is one of the goals of the layout; I'm planning a regular passenger shuttle between the main yard ('Adelaide') and Marino, with all the nice passenger and goods car shunting that happened there.
  KymN Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Yes, Yelta in SA Smile

The signaldiagramsandphotos page appears to have not paid their provider fee, but my track plan is here https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/22555. I'm planning a regular passenger shuttle between the main yard ('Adelaide') and Marino, with all the nice passenger and goods car shunting that happened there.
SAR523
You must have had the same influences as I did SAR523.  I still have my schoolboy plan of a never-built model of Marino; a station that I regularly rode my bike to and which fascinated me.  I scored a few cab rides in an 'F' running around.  And I had a tinplate sign that said 'Yelta'.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Yes, Yelta in SA Smile

The signaldiagramsandphotos page appears to have not paid their provider fee, but my track plan is here https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/22555, not that it's that useful for this discussion (couple of passing sidings, sprouting dead end sidings)

SAR523
Google has the page cached: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rL9pJPQC-PoJ:https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/22555+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au&client=safari
  DJPeters Assistant Commissioner

Was watching a DVD the other night from the NRM and it is called "National Railway Museum film Collection Volume 2" and on it it shows a take out van being used in service as the crew unload something from it. The whole disc is worth it but if you want to know then see if you can can get a copy of this disc. The NRM might still sell them and they will do a mail type order as well for you.

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