'Hopeless': Commuters slam new Sydney Metro trains over delays

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 28 May 2019 08:12
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

Although I've never been favour of the metro as a solution to providing a rail service to the outer North Western region of Sydney, I accept that it's now a reality and I think it's unfair to base any judgement on its first day of operation.  The fact that it was free travel and a new rail service with the novelty effect doesn't equate with its proposed normal operating pattern.   I expect that the initial glitches will be rectified as the system progresses. After all, the automated system is already well proven overseas, so why should it be any different here.  

I will reserve any further judgement until it has been operating for at least a couple of months.

'Hopeless': Commuters slam new Sydney Metro trains over delays

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  SinickleBird Chief Train Controller

Location: Qantas Club at Mudgee International Airport
Agree - there will always be a small minority who find reason to complain, even when they receive something free.

Having said that, I was a little surprised that the door opening mechanism would give rise to a problem, considering how long the “testing period” had lasted, and how many thousand kilometres the trains had been touted as running before entering revenue service. Perhaps not all units were tested, or perhaps not all functionality was tested.

In a way, it reminds me of the IT processes at work, where “user acceptance testing” is typically conducted by another IT team, performing a limited suite of operations to justify signing off. If it’s really UAT, then the users should put it through its paces in normal operation. Which was the purpose of Sunday’s freebie on Metro, I guess.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
I expect that the initial glitches will be rectified as the system progresses. After all, the automated system is already well proven overseas, so why should it be any different here.
"Transtopic"
If it's "well proven" overseas, why do we have so-called glitches here? Can't we learn from others?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Planning on taking a return trip on Wednesday of this week and will grab some pics and write something up for the site.
  M636C Minister for Railways

The ABC had reporters on stations and trains in both the morning and afternoon peak hours and reported no serious problems and no overcrowding.

I rode the trains both Sunday and Monday with few problems. There was indeed a train with defective doors that caused a 30 minute delay on Sunday. but the crowds cleared rapidly when service resumed.

In particular trains ran as advertised while I was on the line on Monday.

The lead photo in the Yahoo article could only have been taken on Sunday. It is of a queue at Chatswood outside the station. This could not have occurred on Monday, since few people would have boarded at Chatswood to go to Metro stations, most passengers changing to or from North Shore trains. The Metro platforms were partitioned off on Sunday and queues were formed to ride the Metro. These partitions were gone on Monday so it was not possible to separate Metro passengers. Nobody could have queued outside the station as a Metro passenger on Monday. I suspect other crowd photos are from Sunday.

This is at best a beat-up and at worst just lies.

Peter
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I think it is refreshing that the NSW Government has taken the plunge and built an asian style service.  I have taken journey's on the equivalent services in bangkok which run very well and also Malaysia where a similar system exists although it is considered a light rail service or LRT but really it is a mult-car service with no driver and gates at the station as has been constructed (i think) in Sydney.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
I expect that the initial glitches will be rectified as the system progresses. After all, the automated system is already well proven overseas, so why should it be any different here.
If it's "well proven" overseas, why do we have so-called glitches here? Can't we learn from others?
Valvegear
Open day glitches plague most things in one form or another. There is always something you didn't have time, think to test, fix the fault you found or retest it again after finding the fault and fixing the coding.

Fortunately for the users none of the trains are made by Boeing.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Open day glitches plague most things in one form or another. There is always something you didn't have time, think to test, fix the fault you found or retest it again after finding the fault and fixing the coding.
"RTT_Rules"
Exactly, and it's accepted as normal. If there "isn't time" or nobody thought to test it, the obvious thing is to make up for these failings with full scale dummy runs, and fix the faults before taking passengers.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Open day glitches plague most things in one form or another. There is always something you didn't have time, think to test, fix the fault you found or retest it again after finding the fault and fixing the coding.
Exactly, and it's accepted as normal. If there "isn't time" or nobody thought to test it, the obvious thing is to make up for these failings with full scale dummy runs, and fix the faults before taking passengers.
Valvegear

And again, as RTT_Rules suggests "Just like Boeing did"

Luckily mass casualties and deaths have been avoided on the NSW Metro Razz
  GrahamH Chief Commissioner

Location: At a terminal on the www.
Open day glitches plague most things in one form or another. There is always something you didn't have time, think to test, fix the fault you found or retest it again after finding the fault and fixing the coding.

snip
RTT_Rules
In the world of projects, free days or whatever in a different context, are the last stage of testing. Don't tell the free-riders, they may want to be paid. Wink

Genuine live testing. Hence Monday went well.
  stooge spark Train Controller

The line now has a reduced service due to a power fault between Showground and Rouse Hill.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-31/sydney-metro-delays-croc-park-may-open/11165002
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The issues are somewhat disappointing but hopefully the issues will be solved soon. I am worried about some of the issues that are occurring that shouldn't be happening on a brand new system like this recent power outage and I feel that the trains should already be 8 cars in length which would solve some of the issues.


The over/under shoots don't worry me at all but prams and people getting stuck when the trains are packed in the PSD's are a big worry. None the less I think these are issues that should be able to be resolved.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

One weird thing that some people have been reporting on Twitter is unreliability of the onboard PIDs, particularly in reporting the door openings: sometimes they're showing the wrong side opening, sometimes showing opening between stations. The dynamic maps are also having trouble in a few cases reported in the media.

Nothing critical obviously but little faults like that can really eat away at how the public perceive the service.

Edit: just reading in the SMH that a train this morning failed to open its doors at Chatswood after sitting there for some time, and turned back to the other platform while still full. Trains entering "out of service" areas with passengers on board really should not be happening.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Nothing critical obviously but little faults like that can really eat away at how the public perceive the service.
potatoinmymouth

And rightly so.  If those sorts of trivial yet obvious faults were not found in testing, it makes you wonder what else wasn't properly tested.

I knew there would be media reports on all sorts of minor teething issues.  But these little things just add to my cynicism about the strategic timing of the opening.  They clearly haven’t spent the last few months testing and resolving problems.  They've been waiting for the State and Fed elections to be over before they reveal the problems.

In the past few weeks I've had quite few MCAS moments. From ATMS not dispensing my cash, to those infamous Wollies self serve checkouts, or Android "spellcheck" changing my correctly typed "not by a long shot" to "you are a big sh*t" in a message I sent one of my kid's friend's mum.

It makes me dis-pare at the quality of software testing that must be going on, or *not* going on, these days.  It results in driverless trains not bothering to open doors, or aircraft "auto-correcting" their pilots to cut the engines and point the nose at the ground.
  Aurora8 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Actually makes sense, rather than delay the trains behind, to contain the issue and get the passengers off on platform 3 as happened there.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Actually makes sense, rather than delay the trains behind, to contain the issue and get the passengers off on platform 3 as happened there.
Aurora8

MCAS made sense to someone too.  It worked exactly as designed.
  Big J Assistant Commissioner

Location: In Paradise


It makes me dis-pare at the quality of software testing that must be going on, or *not* going on, these days.  It results in driverless trains not bothering to open doors, or aircraft "auto-correcting" their pilots to cut the engines and point the nose at the ground.
djf01
That is why I laugh when the media eats up 100% driverless cars on the roads in a mass sense in this decade. They lap up the marketing people of the businesses that are investing into the technology. No doubt many of the innovations in working towards this goal will flow into our cars in the next few years, as we have seen with AEB, but tying this all together to work on a public road network amongst people driving or pedestrians will not happen for a loonnnggg time.


Imagine a driverless car going along Cavhill Ave (Surfers Paradise) at 11pm on a Friday night, will either cause a death or the car wont move. They have along way before AI can handle all of that. Yes I know about the Phoenix AZ experiment, erm they are struggling with that there at location with uniform grid layout, wide roads and controlled crossings. Mainly due to the randomness of people, it is not coping. Throw in each country's unique wildlife they a long way before they will release it to us mortals, as they don't want to be sued.

Also I am aware of Tesla's version, umm interesting consumer US consumer reports about the adequacy of this system. Similarly it will be a long time before a Mr Musk car will be released without a steering wheel. That's in fact if his business is around long enough to achieve that. I hope that he is, as we do need visionary people, but from a business perspective, building the 300,000 cars with a similar capitalisation as Ford or GM, means his business is burning money fast and it will be interesting if his backers will continue before it is sold to one of the real manufacturers. Remember Jaguar, Aston Martin, Lamborghini and Bugatti were all independent and have been bought by one of the big boys at some point in their history.

Listening to science shows, there has been a real beat up where they are at AI. It is progressing, but not where "beyond 2000" had us thinking 3 decades ago, let alone what the media is saying at the moment. We are along way off from AI controlling objects on the wider world outside of a controlled ecosystem. Yes within a controlled environment, but not amongst the wider world.....yet.

Back to the topic, driverless trains been around for years ala Singapore and what Rio is achieving shows what you can do within a ecosystem. No doubt Sydney will operate to the same level as Singapore very soon. Like everything rolling out technology will have glitches, so long they are not safety related then we have to suck it up.

Just remember to hit the on/off button. Maybe they need a big red reset button at each door.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Agree 100% about driverless cars. If driverless trains aren’t perfect yet what on earth makes people think the open road is a suitable place for AI? Driverless cars are primarily an attempt by the car industry to “innovate” and make themselves appear relevant as a 21st century transport option when the evidence is clearly pointing against car-based societies. Not saying they won’t have other benefits - they will - but the R&D would not be so well-funded if it wasn’t important to the manufacturers’ future positions.

A passenger also ended up in the stabling yard yesterday in a separate incident. Now, that’s not driverless exclusive by any means - a relative of mine once ended up in the North Melbourne sidings by being oblivious - but it makes you wonder if procedures have been relaxed too far in the aura of ATO.

It’s been a pretty disappointing first week. I’m sure things will improve, but the more “teething issues” new projects face the less likely future governments are to try ambitious things.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Agree 100% about driverless cars. If driverless trains aren’t perfect yet what on earth makes people think the open road is a suitable place for AI? Driverless cars are primarily an attempt by the car industry to “innovate” and make themselves appear relevant as a 21st century transport option when the evidence is clearly pointing against car-based societies. Not saying they won’t have other benefits - they will - but the R&D would not be so well-funded if it wasn’t important to the manufacturers’ future positions.

A passenger also ended up in the stabling yard yesterday in a separate incident. Now, that’s not driverless exclusive by any means - a relative of mine once ended up in the North Melbourne sidings by being oblivious - but it makes you wonder if procedures have been relaxed too far in the aura of ATO.

It’s been a pretty disappointing first week. I’m sure things will improve, but the more “teething issues” new projects face the less likely future governments are to try ambitious things.
potatoinmymouth
We need to be realistic about the issues with Sydney NWRL. Obviously there are many auto metro systems world wide and their safety and reliability is well documented and why most greenfields lines are on the same path. The technology works, obviously. But it needs to be set up. Why Sydney still has issues after months of testing, well maybe it will get out, maybe it won't.

Auto cars are a very different beast and not comparable to trains.
  viaprojects Train Controller

The technology works, obviously. But it needs to be set up. Why Sydney still has issues after months of testing, well maybe it will get out, maybe it won't.

.
RTT_Rules


they may have skipped some testing - braking under different loading patterns to line up with the doors ( reported in the news ) ... just need some staff to ride the metro to report the problems ... cameras don't fix problems
  DalyWaters Chief Commissioner



Back to the topic, driverless trains been around for years ala Singapore and what Rio is achieving shows what you can do within a ecosystem. No doubt Sydney will operate to the same level as Singapore very soon.
Big J


https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/drivers-now-deployed-on-singapores-driverless-mrt-to-improve-reliability
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
No doubt Sydney will operate to the same level as Singapore very soon.
"BigJ""
Is this wishful thinking, or is it based upon some sort of evidence? We are decades behind on this type of technology.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE


Back to the topic, driverless trains been around for years ala Singapore and what Rio is achieving shows what you can do within a ecosystem. No doubt Sydney will operate to the same level as Singapore very soon.

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/drivers-now-deployed-on-singapores-driverless-mrt-to-improve-reliability
DalyWaters
I read the details of this article previously, t was to do with crowding if I recall correctly.

There are still many other driverless lines such as Vancouver, Dubai etc.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
No doubt Sydney will operate to the same level as Singapore very soon.
Is this wishful thinking, or is it based upon some sort of evidence? We are decades behind on this type of technology.
Valvegear
Sydney maybe behind, but the NWRL is not.

There is also
- Vancouver (all lines)
- Dubai
- Sao Paulo, line 4, 15 and 17
- Ontario
- Riyadh
- KL
- Barcelona,
- Nuremburg
- Paris, Line 1, soon to be Line 4, 13, 14, 15, 16, 18
- Budapest

etc etc etc etc

By the time the Western Metro is complete, expect the DD network to face driver automation, even if a guard is still required.

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