2019 Federal Election Thread

 
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
The cynic in me says the LNP won't do anything about 'jobz 'n growf' in Queensland anyway.

Unemployment, particularly youth unemployment, is really pretty high in regional QLD - in Townsville and Rockhampton the rate gets towards ten percent. It's a national disgrace really, no wonder Queenslanders are angry at Canberra and particularly angry at the Greens for telling them they were wrong for wanting a jobs-generating coal mine. People living those cities and towns don't want to see their kids on drugs or suicidal because they have no job - in that respect Adani represented hope that something would come along to employ those people.

But the reality is the LNP don't care and will ignore them. And if you're unemployed then it's probably your fault anyway...
The unfortunate reality of the Adani mine is that if it does proceed, there will be a short term jobs bonanza but once operational a very different story. The whole site will be automated and one report I saw stated there would only be 100 direct jobs. Of course there will be indirect employment for suppliers, contractors and train crews to the port. That fact doesn't seem to be appreciated in the area.  And the environmental consequences appear subservient to the electoral reality as demonstrated at the election.
gippslander
As RTT_Rules said it will probably end up being more than a hundred direct jobs - it's an incredibly large undertaking.

Weeks after the election I think the ALP and the Greens are still stunned and/or clueless about what just happened. It's about jobs - the same reason why Trump won the traditional Democrat working class areas in the 2016 election. The Labor Party were behaving like they could be all things to all people and they forgot that they're supposed to be representing the people who live a hand-to-mouth existence or the people who can't find work. Instead they forgot all about them.

You live in Gippsland don't you - you should understand yourself what it's about. Generational unemployment, kids who grow up without any hope of finding decent jobs unless they leave the place - otherwise they end up on crystal meth, alcoholics or contemplating suicide. There was absolutely no plan to help these people; not that the LNP are much better. Youth unemployment in places like Townsville and Rockhampton is around the 20 percent mark and adult unemployment not much less. These people are crying out for jobs and the last thing they wanted was Bob Brown and his well meaning idiots driving up there telling them they should forgo Adani for the sake of the planet.

Which is fine and dandy when you're on a parliamentary pension for the rest of your life.

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  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Youth unemployment is much more complicated than whether the jobs exist or not.

Lot's of young people from disadvantaged backgrounds who get jobs often quit early on because:
1) Parents/step-parents leech off them because they're the ones earning cash.
2) Can't rent a house because it's casual employment and have no rental history, and there's a shortage of housing due to a myriad of factors.
3) For young women especially, they then shack up with some drongo as an escape.

You can see where that often ends up....  And so the cycle of generational poverty and all that goes with it, continues.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Youth unemployment is much more complicated than whether the jobs exist or not.

Lot's of young people from disadvantaged backgrounds who get jobs often quit early on because:
1) Parents/step-parents leech off them because they're the ones earning cash.
2) Can't rent a house because it's casual employment and have no rental history, and there's a shortage of housing due to a myriad of factors.
3) For young women especially, they then shack up with some drongo as an escape.

You can see where that often ends up....  And so the cycle of generational poverty and all that goes with it, continues.
Carnot
I spent many years on full time "Casual Employment", rented no issue and borrowed to buy a house and this was in the 90's.

The job I had following for 5 years was fixed term full time employment and again we rented and borrowed to buy property.

I've been told by both Real Estate and banks is that they look for regular income and savings, not employment status.

Australia's longer term employment stats don't demonstrate a mass shift to casualisation. Men has been increasing while women decreasing, almost cancelling the two out with only a minor trend in increasing overall. (Yes I've seen union propaganda at an old workplace that left off women in their graph in their hand outs to employees arriving on site but didn't hand out to the female workforce, not bad for 2007, not!)

I think the far bigger trend is the growth in micro-businesses, ie getting an ABN and then contracting yourself out. A friend of mine and staunch ALP supporter in Vic did this in a heart beat when offered.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
As RTT_Rules said it will probably end up being more than a hundred direct jobs - it's an incredibly large undertaking.
don_dunstan
At best Rolling Eyes, which will hardly offset the thousands of jobs Telstra and the Banks will cut over the next year. Adani promises a lot but will it deliver to match RTT_Rules LNP hype.

Funny how the pre-election strong economy isn't looking so strong this week. The RBA is down to its last rabbits so we might finally see how the LNP manage an economy that isn't booming. Expect all talk of surpluses to disappear Razz
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
As RTT_Rules said it will probably end up being more than a hundred direct jobs - it's an incredibly large undertaking.
At best Rolling Eyes, which will hardly offset the thousands of jobs Telstra and the Banks will cut over the next year. Adani promises a lot but will it deliver to match RTT_Rules LNP hype.

Funny how the pre-election strong economy isn't looking so strong this week. The RBA is down to its last rabbits so we might finally see how the LNP manage an economy that isn't booming. Expect all talk of surpluses to disappear Razz
Groundrelay
Again, you'll get no argument from me - but I'm just pointing out some obvious home truths here which is that the people of Queensland are going to vote for job creation no matter how abhorrent it might be to some southerners - they are desperate for any sorts of good jobs to be made in their region. Do you have a solution to the problem of them voting for the faintest sniff of jobs? I don't. And I agree with you that Morrison doesn't either - but at least they weren't running totally dead on the issue like the ALP and Greens were.
  gippslander Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Gippsland, Vic
As RTT_Rules said it will probably end up being more than a hundred direct jobs - it's an incredibly large undertaking.

You live in Gippsland don't you - you should understand yourself what it's about. Generational unemployment, kids who grow up without any hope of finding decent jobs unless they leave the place - otherwise they end up on crystal meth, alcoholics or contemplating suicide. There was absolutely no plan to help these people; not that the LNP are much better. Youth unemployment in places like Townsville and Rockhampton is around the 20 percent mark and adult unemployment not much less. These people are crying out for jobs and the last thing they wanted was Bob Brown and his well meaning idiots driving up there telling them they should forgo Adani for the sake of the planet.

Which is fine and dandy when you're on a parliamentary pension for the rest of your life.
don_dunstan
Upon further reflection, there is no doubt that Adani will create significant employment when all the supply chain and port components are included. The Latrobe Valley electricity generation sector has been significantly downsized over the past 25 years but the amount of government restructuring support has been comparatively modest given the scale of job lossess. We now have a two sided economy whereby there is  a much more diversified industry balance, with brown coal mining and power generation still important, but now well behind the service sector as an employment generator. People who have qualifications relevant to employer requirements often do very well, but as you point out, areas like Latrobe now have very pronounced levels of of intergenerational disadvantage, much like parts of North Queensland and western Tasmania. I see a real failure of both State and Australian governments to seriously address that issue - although the number of contract service providers in Morwell is quite amazing.

Finally, the Latrobe Valley and West Gippsland are already emerging commuter areas but the slipping point is the Gippsland rail line and its long path through the metro network. That does not appear to be high on any forward planning, unlike the other three RFR corridors.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
As RTT_Rules said it will probably end up being more than a hundred direct jobs - it's an incredibly large undertaking.
At best Rolling Eyes, which will hardly offset the thousands of jobs Telstra and the Banks will cut over the next year. Adani promises a lot but will it deliver to match RTT_Rules LNP hype.
Groundrelay
Seriously, you still think it takes 100 people OR LESS to move 35,000,000tpa of coal from ground to port + all the corporate crap that goes with it. There will be a minimum of 100 Direct Corporate jobs in Brisbane generated.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Again, you'll get no argument from me - but I'm just pointing out some obvious home truths here which is that the people of Queensland are going to vote for job creation no matter how abhorrent it might be to some southerners - they are desperate for any sorts of good jobs to be made in their region. Do you have a solution to the problem of them voting for the faintest sniff of jobs? I don't. And I agree with you that Morrison doesn't either - but at least they weren't running totally dead on the issue like the ALP and Greens were.
don_dunstan
Given a job or a maybe get jobs or the alternative saying they don't support your industry, guess who the people will always vote for.

The same thing we saw this election I have seen in Tasmania where the ALP publicly stated it wouldn't support big industry retention and previously in Gladstone Qld on similar issues as faced this election. Why the workers party refuses to support the workers in the well paid generational industry jobs, god only knows. Note these are also the same places I've worked where the unions have been dumped by the workers for being irrelevant/out dated. Anyone thinks I'm anti union has no idea, go talk to the Operators and Maintainers at some of the plants and mines I've worked at to see what they really think and it will come with emotion. My brother is in the mining sector in WA as an Fitter, they are almost extremist over there.

Does Morrison have a plan, who knows, but when the Workers Party goes to the election with anti-worker policies we will surely find out.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Talking of Unions - the ALP and Union movement are tearing themselves apart over chronic bully, thug, and loudmouth in the CFMMEU - Mr. John Setka.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-13/kevin-rudd-accuses-john-setka-of-damaging-labor/11204964

He's the gift that just keeps on giving to the Coalition...
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Again, you'll get no argument from me - but I'm just pointing out some obvious home truths here which is that the people of Queensland are going to vote for job creation no matter how abhorrent it might be to some southerners - they are desperate for any sorts of good jobs to be made in their region. Do you have a solution to the problem of them voting for the faintest sniff of jobs? I don't. And I agree with you that Morrison doesn't either - but at least they weren't running totally dead on the issue like the ALP and Greens were.
Given a job or a maybe get jobs or the alternative saying they don't support your industry, guess who the people will always vote for.

The same thing we saw this election I have seen in Tasmania where the ALP publicly stated it wouldn't support big industry retention and previously in Gladstone Qld on similar issues as faced this election. Why the workers party refuses to support the workers in the well paid generational industry jobs, god only knows. Note these are also the same places I've worked where the unions have been dumped by the workers for being irrelevant/out dated. Anyone thinks I'm anti union has no idea, go talk to the Operators and Maintainers at some of the plants and mines I've worked at to see what they really think and it will come with emotion. My brother is in the mining sector in WA as an Fitter, they are almost extremist over there.

Does Morrison have a plan, who knows, but when the Workers Party goes to the election with anti-worker policies we will surely find out.
RTT_Rules
A number of unions were actually campaigning for the LNP in Queensland seats at this federal election thanks to this issue.

They will probably go back to campaigning for the ALP in the next state election, because Queensland Labor understands them where BS in Melbourne doesn't.

A similar effect is seen in US politics, where the alignment of the parties varies within any given state for state elections and federal elections. It is not uncommon for a state to elect a state governor from one party and a US senator from the other.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Does anyone else here suspect that the protests in Hong Kong could end up being Tienanmen Square Mark II? Things are getting pretty bad there, the PRC will send troops in like Deng did and kill indiscriminately.

As usual our weak-as-water government won't do anything.
  7334 Chief Commissioner

Location: In the workshop wondering why I started 7334 in the first place
Does anyone else here suspect that the protests in Hong Kong could end up being Tienanmen Square Mark II?
don_dunstan
In short - Yes!

And if Taiwan isn't watching and feeling nervous then they should be.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Does anyone else here suspect that the protests in Hong Kong could end up being Tienanmen Square Mark II? Things are getting pretty bad there, the PRC will send troops in like Deng did and kill indiscriminately.

As usual our weak-as-water government won't do anything.
don_dunstan
Sadly, that could be the case.

And expect hundreds of thousands of HK residents to make an exit out of there as fast as possible if Xi does so.  What would ScoMo do then?
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
As usual our weak-as-water government won't do anything.
"don_dunstan"
What do you expect the government to do; send a gunboat? You have to be a weak-as-water government when you don't have any significant international clout.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Does anyone else here suspect that the protests in Hong Kong could end up being Tienanmen Square Mark II? Things are getting pretty bad there, the PRC will send troops in like Deng did and kill indiscriminately.

As usual our weak-as-water government won't do anything.
Sadly, that could be the case.

And expect hundreds of thousands of HK residents to make an exit out of there as fast as possible if Xi does so.  What would ScoMo do then?
Carnot
Not being sarcastic, but what would SCOMO actually do? Likely nothing apart from offer asylum to fleeing HK'ers. What else do we expect Australia to say or do against the world's 2nd largest nuclear armed Super Power that is by far our largest trading partner?
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
As usual our weak-as-water government won't do anything.
What do you expect the government to do; send a gunboat? You have to be a weak-as-water government when you don't have any significant international clout.
Valvegear
Maybe I'm too optimistic but I think our moral relativism of the post-war era is going come back and bite us fair on the a*se - and so it should. PRC is not a benevolent dictatorship as Barnaby Joyce said earlier in the week, by definition there's no real rule of law in the PRC (as there is in Hong Kong) because the court system is not a proper independent judiciary. So they have things like intimidation and jailing of dissidents and a massive concentration camp somewhere in the east locking up a million or so people.

In the last ten years not a peep from us, not a diplomatic protest, not a trade sanction. Even Hawke's Labor Party was pretty much fine resuming relations with Deng's China after the massacre. Personally if there's something similar happens again I would get out on the streets and protest against our government's inaction - if we keep lying down with dogs we're bound to get fleas at some stage. We have to stand up for liberal democracy at some stage, stuff the trade implications.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
As usual our weak-as-water government won't do anything.
What do you expect the government to do; send a gunboat? You have to be a weak-as-water government when you don't have any significant international clout.
Maybe I'm too optimistic but I think our moral relativism of the post-war era is going come back and bite us fair on the a*se - and so it should. PRC is not a benevolent dictatorship as Barnaby Joyce said earlier in the week, by definition there's no real rule of law in the PRC (as there is in Hong Kong) because the court system is not a proper independent judiciary. So they have things like intimidation and jailing of dissidents and a massive concentration camp somewhere in the east locking up a million or so people.

In the last ten years not a peep from us, not a diplomatic protest, not a trade sanction. Even Hawke's Labor Party was pretty much fine resuming relations with Deng's China after the massacre. Personally if there's something similar happens again I would get out on the streets and protest against our government's inaction - if we keep lying down with dogs we're bound to get fleas at some stage. We have to stand up for liberal democracy at some stage, stuff the trade implications.
don_dunstan
Yeah and we should do the same to the Yanks too, they're done just as much bad smeg, just in other nations. We won't though, and we won't dare criticise them, The yanks or the Chinese. We Don't because were too scared to poke one of our more powerful neighbours. Don, We ourselves still haven't come to terms with the genocide that was carried out here against the natives, don't expect us to go after 2 massive global superpowers, one that is ascending and the other in decline. We Wont, Even if we do as I would like us to do. The 'Human rights' and liberal democracy we stand for at also at odds with our actions past and present such as our support for the murderus Suharto Regime in Indonesia and its purges and genocides along with following The USA seemingly blindly at every turn. You, know I don't like the PRC Don, but we have to look at ourselves before we can look at others.

I would love to see go after others for there atrocious human rights records but, we need to sort our selves out first.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Yeah and we should do the same to the Yanks too, they're done just as much bad smeg, just in other nations. We won't though, and we won't dare criticise them, The yanks or the Chinese. We Don't because were too scared to poke one of our more powerful neighbours. Don, We ourselves still haven't come to terms with the genocide that was carried out here against the natives, don't expect us to go after 2 massive global superpowers, one that is ascending and the other in decline. We Wont, Even if we do as I would like us to do. The 'Human rights' and liberal democracy we stand for at also at odds with our actions past and present such as our support for the murderus Suharto Regime in Indonesia and its purges and genocides along with following The USA seemingly blindly at every turn. You, know I don't like the PRC Don, but we have to look at ourselves before we can look at others.

I would love to see go after others for there atrocious human rights records but, we need to sort our selves out first.
Dangersdan707
Briefly, I'd say the difference is that in a liberal democracy you have some capacity of redress through the legal system (which is a separate arm of government to the executive) and that historically speaking we have a direct relationship to both the UK and the USA in that we have both independent judiciary and a relatively free fourth estate.

No such thing in the majority of nations across the globe, we should consider ourselves very lucky because of that. My own personal measure of whether you're living in a relatively free nation or not is the likelihood of being carted away at four in the morning just because you wrote something unflattering about those in power on the internet. So far it hasn't happened to me or anyone else who posts here on Railpage so I guess we have some pretty good civil liberties here.

Not so in places-that-shall-remain-unnamed.

Anyway do you get my point about doing business with these people? If people were really interested in human rights then they'd insist that our government(s) shouldn't be doing business with genocidal human rights violators. But realistically everyone is too apathetic to even bother writing to their local MP.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Yeah and we should do the same to the Yanks too, they're done just as much bad smeg, just in other nations. We won't though, and we won't dare criticise them, The yanks or the Chinese. We Don't because were too scared to poke one of our more powerful neighbours. Don, We ourselves still haven't come to terms with the genocide that was carried out here against the natives, don't expect us to go after 2 massive global superpowers, one that is ascending and the other in decline. We Wont, Even if we do as I would like us to do. The 'Human rights' and liberal democracy we stand for at also at odds with our actions past and present such as our support for the murderus Suharto Regime in Indonesia and its purges and genocides along with following The USA seemingly blindly at every turn. You, know I don't like the PRC Don, but we have to look at ourselves before we can look at others.

I would love to see go after others for there atrocious human rights records but, we need to sort our selves out first.
Briefly, I'd say the difference is that in a liberal democracy you have some capacity of redress through the legal system (which is a separate arm of government to the executive) and that historically speaking we have a direct relationship to both the UK and the USA in that we have both independent judiciary and a relatively free fourth estate.

No such thing in the majority of nations across the globe, we should consider ourselves very lucky because of that. My own personal measure of whether you're living in a relatively free nation or not is the likelihood of being carted away at four in the morning just because you wrote something unflattering about those in power on the internet. So far it hasn't happened to me or anyone else who posts here on Railpage so I guess we have some pretty good civil liberties here.

Not so in places-that-shall-remain-unnamed.

Anyway do you get my point about doing business with these people? If people were really interested in human rights then they'd insist that our government(s) shouldn't be doing business with genocidal human rights violators. But realistically everyone is too apathetic to even bother writing to their local MP.
don_dunstan
You still ignore my point, I would be hypocritical for us too as we have not made amends for us past actions . I would like us too but we won't because were to tied to the 2 largest human rights violators (unconfirmed will add info if true)
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
You still ignore my point, I would be hypocritical for us too as we have not made amends for us past actions . I would like us too but we won't because were to tied to the 2 largest human rights violators (unconfirmed will add info if true)
Dangersdan707
I'd say you don't have a wide enough perspective on human history. Communism is by far the most deadly ideology ever created in history - something like a hundred million people died under communist rule in the 20th century, there's nothing like it ever been seen before or since.

Yes, western liberal democracies are hardly innocent in this regard particularly with regards to native peoples, the rights of minorities etc. But the United States didn't at any stage inflict a deliberate mass-starvation policy on their own people killing around 30-40 million peoples (then subsequently cover it up). The United States hasn't incarcerated a million Muslims for no other reason than they're Muslim. And instances of human rights violations historical and otherwise can be discussed freely in a western democracy - as opposed to banning all discussion.

We're incredibly lucky in this country to be able to reflect on these things - some countries would lock us up just for having this conversation. We have freedoms that we totally take for granted, including freedom from a tyrannical dictatorship that could crush us like bugs just for thinking outside the box.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Kevin Rudd is a nauseating pro-communist sycophant - The Guardian:

On Thursday night, Rudd said politicians needed to “be very judicious about when you open your big mouth”.

“By which I mean, Turnbull’s egregious statement that the Australian people have stood up. That stuff that he did at the end of 2017, that was just nuts, it was domestically and politically self-indulgent nuttiness.”

Rudd said he was in Beijing at the time of the comments, and the discussion of foreign interference was passing by without much attention from Chinese leaders. “And then suddenly, in thunders Malcolm, and he picks the phrase that Mao Zedong used… Picks that phrase, or blabs it out in his own appalling rendition of Chinese, and then suddenly it was in every Chinese headline.

“You want to pick the day when the relationship went, in my judgment unnecessarily, down the gurgle [sic], it was that day, so just be judicious about when you embark upon public language.”

Yet another politician telling us that we can't breathe a word in case we offend the Chinese Communist Party, as if they're precocious children.

Go away, Kevin Rudd, yet another one bought and paid for by the communists telling us what we can and can't do.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
You still ignore my point, I would be hypocritical for us too as we have not made amends for us past actions . I would like us too but we won't because were to tied to the 2 largest human rights violators (unconfirmed will add info if true)
I'd say you don't have a wide enough perspective on human history. Communism is by far the most deadly ideology ever created in history - something like a hundred million people died under communist rule in the 20th century, there's nothing like it ever been seen before or since.

Yes, western liberal democracies are hardly innocent in this regard particularly with regards to native peoples, the rights of minorities etc. But the United States didn't at any stage inflict a deliberate mass-starvation policy on their own people killing around 30-40 million peoples (then subsequently cover it up). The United States hasn't incarcerated a million Muslims for no other reason than they're Muslim. And instances of human rights violations historical and otherwise can be discussed freely in a western democracy - as opposed to banning all discussion.

We're incredibly lucky in this country to be able to reflect on these things - some countries would lock us up just for having this conversation. We have freedoms that we totally take for granted, including freedom from a tyrannical dictatorship that could crush us like bugs just for thinking outside the box.
don_dunstan
Id say we Return here to continue discussion. Remember this Thread?

https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2136767.htm#2136767
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Again, you'll get no argument from me - but I'm just pointing out some obvious home truths here which is that the people of Queensland are going to vote for job creation no matter how abhorrent it might be to some southerners - they are desperate for any sorts of good jobs to be made in their region. Do you have a solution to the problem of them voting for the faintest sniff of jobs? I don't. And I agree with you that Morrison doesn't either - but at least they weren't running totally dead on the issue like the ALP and Greens were.
Given a job or a maybe get jobs or the alternative saying they don't support your industry, guess who the people will always vote for.

The same thing we saw this election I have seen in Tasmania where the ALP publicly stated it wouldn't support big industry retention and previously in Gladstone Qld on similar issues as faced this election. Why the workers party refuses to support the workers in the well paid generational industry jobs, god only knows. Note these are also the same places I've worked where the unions have been dumped by the workers for being irrelevant/out dated. Anyone thinks I'm anti union has no idea, go talk to the Operators and Maintainers at some of the plants and mines I've worked at to see what they really think and it will come with emotion. My brother is in the mining sector in WA as an Fitter, they are almost extremist over there.

Does Morrison have a plan, who knows, but when the Workers Party goes to the election with anti-worker policies we will surely find out.
A number of unions were actually campaigning for the LNP in Queensland seats at this federal election thanks to this issue.

They will probably go back to campaigning for the ALP in the next state election, because Queensland Labor understands them where BS in Melbourne doesn't.

A similar effect is seen in US politics, where the alignment of the parties varies within any given state for state elections and federal elections. It is not uncommon for a state to elect a state governor from one party and a US senator from the other.
justapassenger
Some unions are incredibly modern and up with the times of whats best for their members but not being one eyed either, others are like the CFMEU which I believe had a union official not once but twice climb a construction crane on a site he was not employed or trained to operate to question the crane driver who repeatedly told the official to F-off, he was breaking safety standards and the law.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

something like a hundred million people died under communist rule in the 20th century, there's nothing like it ever been seen before or since.
don_dunstan

Pretty meaningless statistic. I could say that tens of millions of Indians died as a result of British democracy. Or tens of millions of Iranians under US democracy. Or how about the people murdered under oppressive Islamist regimes?
I'd say you don't have a wide enough perspective on human history.
don_dunstan
Easy to say that when only exposed to US propaganda. I'm by no means saying that communism is a perfect ideology, but it's far better than fascism, religious rule (e.g. Sharia Law, Christianity back in the day), colonialism, etc.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Id say we Return here to continue discussion. Remember this Thread?

https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2136767.htm#2136767
Dangersdan707
If you really believe that communism has received an unfair reputation in the west then you're entitled to that belief. But the fact is that Mao and Stalin between them are the greatest mass murderers of all time, they put Hitler in the shade.

The basic fact remains: It was the communist system that allowed these atrocities to be perpetrated.

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