I'd suggest when you look at these events you need to think about causation. Yeah, the British Empire and the brutal repressions and famines in India in the early (Bengal 1770 was primarily caused by the greed of the East India Company) but there were a lot of famines pre-dating colonialism too. Also do you blame the British for the millions who died in the Partition of India in 1947? Are they responsible for that too? What about the state of modern India where they have a space program but most of the country is still un-sewered some 72 years after the British left... there are some people who argue this is still the fault of the British even though they haven't ruled the place for a very long time.
The Main famine in India that was referring too was the Bengali famine of 1943, one that was caused by British decisions to redirect supplies to the British isles during the second world war. I did not know of the one in 1770 but thanks for informing me. From what I've read on India The British are only partially to blame for the violence and death that came out of the partition I have deducted. The British Ive read according to William Daleymple argues for one they they can be blamed for destroying the social and religious tolerance in India in the 1850s with the founding of the Raj. India it's honestly bizarre, I do not blame to the Poms for the lack of sewers. One Example of colonial policy I am a fan of is the dutch ethical policy in Indonesia, despite its flaws I'm sure you'll agree had the best of intention and was very different from most colonial policy of the time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Ethical_Policy Don_dunstan
Anyway my point is that you shouldn't confuse acts of economic or political warfare with deliberate genocide. Mercantilism and the British Empire were also to blame for the proliferation of the slave trade world-wide in the last millennia but then the British were also one of the first countries to abolish it in 1807. Are they still to blame for it existing in the Middle East and Africa some 200+ years later?
You can defiantly blame the British for how the is Middle East today, Picot Sykes pact literally carved its present day borders and the majority of ethnic and religious issues in the Arab Middle East can be traced back to this agreement. Creating artificial nations based on borders not religion or identity has never worked.
For the sake of having a simple argument let's compare the mis-deeds of the British with those of communism. In the case of both Stalin and Mao the genocides that they perpetrated were - On their own people, not against a foreign or colonial adversary; Deliberate, centrally planned and managed.
The Purges were, undoubtedly planned however the policy that ultimately lead to the holodomer and Great Famine were both not inherently designed to kill 50 million people. I Would count the Population of colonies as 'own people' as India for example by the time of the Bengali famine had been under direct British rule for around 80 years.
Make no mistake, both the mass genocides perpetrated by both dictators were deliberate and planned, they were no accident - there was no economic or international players involved, it was not about oppressing colonials - they were doing it purely to kill opponents of their regimes.
And have we done that before? Yes. Genocide, Famine and political repression are different things. I guess we should now count the Indonesian anti PKI killings as a 'genocide' and we should also count the political repression under a variety of fascist and neo fascist dictators from the last 80 years as 'genocide'. Those were planned too (disgusting whataboutery on my behalf), but they are not counted as genocide.
In the case of Mao, I've read a few books about his rule and everything about his rein of terror on the Chinese people was about getting power and consolidating it within the Communist Party of China. Even before the mass-starvation of peasants Mao had ordered his subordinates to carry out the Hundred Flowers Campaign which in theory was an intellectual blossoming of China - but instead turned into a purge of intellectuals killing and imprisoning many thousands of potential opponents of the regime. The huge death toll of the Great Leap Forward was due in large part to Mao exporting tonnes of grain and rice to Russia to pay for weaponry while the population in the south and the east were starving en masse to death - he knew this was happening but insisted on paying Khrushchev.
Its is interesting to consider that famines of similar proportions had occurred in China since recording began in the early 19th century, with similarly sized famines 1853-73, 76-79, 1907 and 1911. Do we claim the ones in Africa and India are the fault of the government (disgusting wharboutry), the after reading up on China since our last discussion some months ago I have deduced the great leap can be blamed on the government and thus I agree with you on this. And then they decided that Khrushchev was to 'revisionist' and split with him. The Same can be said about the Khamhr Rouge who did the exact same except to the Chinese. (lets not open that can of worms)
Does that sound like an accident or a deliberate act of genocide? Stalin's story is roughly the same but the purges and warfare against Ukraine in particular happened much earlier before the war and were covered up with the fog of Nazi invasion.
The only time I can think of warfare against Ukraine was in the overflowing quagmire of the Russian Russian Civil war in the early to mid 1920s. the Famine I must say was not caused intentionally, the purges most defiantly yes, with the scapegoat of Trotsky to blame. And thus the Revision of History occurred.
It's a deadly ideology that tends to promote the most psychopathic and paranoid people to the position of ultimate power where they can wage total warfare against opponents. Concentration camps, burning and looting, you name it. Mao in particular was so crazy that he initiated the Cultural Revolution which just about destroyed China in its entirety in his zeal to keep the revolution going and punish counter-revolutionaries.
You, seem to focus on china having a particular focus on it. I have condemned Maos Actions multiple times now and I agree after reading books such as 'The Private life of Chairman Mao' by Li Zhisui on this topic that are very unbiased. (written by his doctor of 20ish years). We have literal internment camps too you know.
Not even taught in schools in China today, they can't face the truth of what they did, even Tienanmen Square officially never happened (fancy that!). It's really quite an Orwellian wet dream over there, they've banned Nineteen Eighty Four and Brave New World to boot. They're aiming for full-time 24/7 surveillance of every one of their citizens' actions and thoughts - and technologies that Orwell could never have imagined will allow them to do it.
Don, you know I'm as much a fan of the PRC as you. We all know about they're mass censorship and obsessive desire to control the populace. Have you heard about their Social credit system they ere implementing and the drone tracking in tibet and east turkestan (xainjang)? its literally a Neo-Feudal hierarchy there implementing with a dystopian cyberpunk aesthetic. its Kind of funny considering Orwell was a communist himself, though one of the libertarian variety. Eric Blair (George Orwells long forgotten name), did a very excellent job critiquing and warning of the dangers of authoritarianism. I've Personally always however interpreted Brave New World however as an anti-capitalist satire text with similar messaging and ideas to John Carpenters They Live.
When has a western liberal democracy done anything in the last century that even comes close to what the communists have done - and are still doing now?
The Main ones I can think of are the Horrific things the French and Belgians did in Africa when decolonisation was occurring along with apartheids in South Africa and Rhodesia, they can't beat Mao or hitlers numbers though.
the Original point of my post Don was that though we should
bash the PRC over its atrocities, it would be hypocritical for the west to do so if they don't clean up there act. What difference do the Camps in Turkestan have to ours on Christmas Island and Nauru? Apologies for making you wait
I also have 2 questions (off topic) for you Don.
Why Do you use the alias Don Dunstan?
have you done a political compass test? (just one of the little crappy ones on the internet) because I'm curious to see where you stand on it so I can get an idea. (yes you may disagree with the left-right readings of politics)