Stalin, Mao & Marx verses everyone else

 
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Well Dan young fella,  I would of thought you would have been a great fan of Uncle Joe, the man of the century, coz he had broad gauge.Razz
wobert
Then I Apparently love Tsarism and British India Razz I thought you would like NAME CENSORED FOR COMMITTING GENOCIDE because of Standard gauge and conversion of Russian networks to SG during operation Barbarossa.

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  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Dostoevsky foresaw the catastrophe that Atheistic Socialism would have on human freedom:
https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/blog/dostoevskys-critique-socialism

And it came to pass.

An interesting article in Quillette too about the genocide committed by the revolutionaries in France in 1793-5 (not for the faint-hearted):
https://quillette.com/2019/03/10/the-french-genocide-that-has-been-air-brushed-from-history/
  Hafenbahn Locomotive Fireman

The film was called The Human Centipede. Google it if you must. The concept is really disgusting. I count myself lucky not to have seen it although I once saw the DVD box in either Sanity or JB.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
The film was called The Human Centipede. Google it if you must. The concept is really disgusting. I count myself lucky not to have seen it although I once saw the DVD box in either Sanity or JB.
Hafenbahn
I entirely agree with you, Thats why I said I wish I didn't know.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Dostoevsky foresaw the catastrophe that Atheistic Socialism would have on human freedom:
https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/blog/dostoevskys-critique-socialism

And it came to pass.
Carnot
Disagree, I would argue that is under soviet marxism Leninism and is successors (such as the PRC, DDR and Stalin). Religion and it's Institutions have always been tied to established authority and generally, fail to reform as the last century shows us. Kind of ironic considering that Many Buddhists in Vietnam fought for the north due to the southern government horrific treatment of that religion. The ussr+ it's satellites and the PRC's treatment of religion, I view is appalling.

Tis interesting though Intellectual takeout, there backed by the Koch Brothers

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/intellectual-takeout/

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Intellectual_Takeout

An interesting article in Quillette too about the genocide committed by the revolutionaries in France in 1793-5 (not for the faint-hearted): https://quillette.com/2019/03/10/the-french-genocide-that-has-been-air-brushed-from-history/
Carnot

Everyone, Like I said earlier, has an agenda!
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

I don't care if the article was written by a website funded by the Koch Brothers, Alex Jones, or Hillary Clinton - it links to an independent encyclopedic source of Dostoevsky's thoughts on Socialism.

Incidentally, not all religions are the same. Buddhism is in fact quite non-theistic, although many Buddhists aren't necessarily atheist.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
I don't care if the article was written by a website funded by the Koch Brothers, Alex Jones, or Hillary Clinton - it links to an independent encyclopaedic source of Dostoevsky's thoughts on Socialism.

Incidentally, not all religions are the same. Buddhism is in fact quite non-theistic, although many Buddhists aren't necessarily atheist.
Carnot
Might I enquire with your that you are Religious? Out of curiosity. A am an atheist however I believe that there is a higher being (God) that us earthlings are yet to discover. I respect the spiritual side of religion and it's morals of kindness, A common thing that all religions contain. The wars (Israel) and Oppression that it has been used for over millennia do put me off of it, as well as it being used to control and subvert populaces across the globe 'The opium of the masses' as Marx said.  Buddhism quite correctly is non-theistic but it's still a religion of all things (really it should just be a spiritual way of life not a religion as hinduism and islam are).
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

I don't care if the article was written by a website funded by the Koch Brothers, Alex Jones, or Hillary Clinton - it links to an independent encyclopaedic source of Dostoevsky's thoughts on Socialism.

Incidentally, not all religions are the same. Buddhism is in fact quite non-theistic, although many Buddhists aren't necessarily atheist.
Might I enquire with your that you are Religious? Out of curiosity. A am an atheist however I believe that there is a higher being (God) that us earthlings are yet to discover. I respect the spiritual side of religion and it's morals of kindness, A common thing that all religions contain. The wars (Israel) and Oppression that it has been used for over millennia do put me off of it, as well as it being used to control and subvert populaces across the globe 'The opium of the masses' as Marx said.  Buddhism quite correctly is non-theistic but it's still a religion of all things (really it should just be a spiritual way of life not a religion as hinduism and islam are).
Dangersdan707
Yes, I am a regular and committed Church member.  Although I find the term 'religious' jarring since it tends to emphasize ritual and legalism over genuine relationship.

It sounds like you're more Agnostic than Atheist to be honest.  Minor detail though...

One myth that needs to be addressed is "Religion Causes Wars".  Well it does sometimes, but only about 7% of them: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-alan-lurie/is-religion-the-cause-of-_b_1400766.html
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
I don't care if the article was written by a website funded by the Koch Brothers, Alex Jones, or Hillary Clinton - it links to an independent encyclopaedic source of Dostoevsky's thoughts on Socialism.

Incidentally, not all religions are the same. Buddhism is in fact quite non-theistic, although many Buddhists aren't necessarily atheist.
Might I enquire with your that you are Religious? Out of curiosity. A am an atheist however I believe that there is a higher being (God) that us earthlings are yet to discover. I respect the spiritual side of religion and it's morals of kindness, A common thing that all religions contain. The wars (Israel) and Oppression that it has been used for over millennia do put me off of it, as well as it being used to control and subvert populaces across the globe 'The opium of the masses' as Marx said.  Buddhism quite correctly is non-theistic but it's still a religion of all things (really it should just be a spiritual way of life not a religion as hinduism and islam are).
Dangersdan707
Yes, I am a regular and committed Church member.  Although I find the term 'religious' jarring since it tends to emphasize ritual and legalism over genuine relationship.

It sounds like you're more Agnostic than Atheist to be honest.  Minor detail though...

One myth that needs to be addressed is "Religion Causes Wars".  Well it does sometimes, but only about 7% of them: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-alan-lurie/is-religion-the-cause-of-_b_1400766.html
"Carnot"



Very well, what ever floats your boat and that you can find meaning in, community and purpose. (I'm not the most knowledgeable on religions so correct me if your wrong).

Thank you for the critique on being Agnostic, I shall use that term now.

I Disagree, Muslim, Jewish, Christian and Hindu fundamentalists and rulers abuse it to divide people and create what I view as artificial conflict. there are countless examples of religion causing wars and conflict, 9/11 (the one in New York not Chile), ISIS and it's Nutcases, Chechnyan wars, Genocide in Ceylon and Israels virtual apartheid it carries out against arabs and muslims.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
And the poor do so well under communist rule! Perhaps the people who complain about our present Australian society should live a while in North Korea or Venezuela. I hear Cuba is pretty good as well, as long as you are part of the ruling class.
9034

And the poor do so well in many places just look at the people of the American rust belt and the large swaths of Africa, India and Eastern Europe and many more!
Perhaps people who complain should be locked in Prison (he he all sides do it) and forgotten about, instead of putting forth legitimate criticisms of the present attitude of society. How about people who critique marxism and 'socialist states' be sent to the Central African Republic or Bangledesh
I Hear Cubas pretty good too, Interesting to note that the Cubans are now (on average) living longer than the yankees and really suffering from that healthcare and lack of a foreign controlled economy. Doing pretty well considering its been under embargo for 50 plus years by a country that made up 90% of its exports and lack of an opposite superpower propping the economy up.

Any how its a decent quote that is proven time and time again by 'the locomotive of history'.


Split from
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2142979.htm#2142979
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
The film was called The Human Centipede. Google it if you must. The concept is really disgusting. I count myself lucky not to have seen it although I once saw the DVD box in either Sanity or JB.
Hafenbahn
Wow, this thread got so boring I missed the best part! As fan of obscure movies (it's nearly impossible to see every movie ever - but I am trying) I am sure to watch all the movies that most others won't. As such I have seen all three 'sequences' of this title, and would be very surprised to know it made it into either Sanity or JB, it's just so obscure I am surprised either retailer had ever heard of it.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
A am an atheist however I believe that there is a higher being (God) that us earthlings are yet to discover.
Dangersdan707
Ah, you're not an atheist. Atheist people (and I am one) strictly lack belief in what you believe.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Buddhism quite correctly is non-theistic but it's still a religion of all things (really it should just be a spiritual way of life not a religion as hinduism and islam are).
Dangersdan707
Buddism is certainly a religion, 'belief in and/or worship of a superhuman controlling power'? Yep, Buddhism has that. It may not have a 'God(s)' as such, but religion is not made by the God belief.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
A am an atheist however I believe that there is a higher being (God) that us earthlings are yet to discover.
Ah, you're not an atheist. Atheist people (and I am one) strictly lack belief in what you believe.
Aaron
Agnostic @Carnot Corrected me
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

I picked up a gem of a book the other day.  Even the coal miners strike of 1949 gets a mention, along with the old VR.  Communism will always be totalitarian and an enemy of freedom:


  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
I'm getting the Black squares, thus I can't understand it
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

I'm getting the Black squares, thus I can't understand it
Dangersdan707
You must be viewing it on a mobile.  Here are the links:
https://imgur.com/k5HFCU2
https://imgur.com/sYcyTUb
https://imgur.com/N2HgWCu
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
I'm getting the Black squares, thus I can't understand it
You must be viewing it on a mobile.  Here are the links:
https://imgur.com/k5HFCU2
https://imgur.com/sYcyTUb
https://imgur.com/N2HgWCu
Carnot
nope, I'm on a Mac Laughing
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

I'm getting the Black squares, thus I can't understand it
You must be viewing it on a mobile.  Here are the links:
https://imgur.com/k5HFCU2
https://imgur.com/sYcyTUb
https://imgur.com/N2HgWCu
nope, I'm on a Mac Laughing
Dangersdan707
So am I, and mine is fine.

Clear your cache and reload page.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
From here 2019 Federal Election ThreadFrom @don_dunstan

I'd say you don't have a wide enough perspective on human history. Communism is by far the most deadly ideology ever created in history - something like a hundred million people died under communist rule in the 20th century, there's nothing like it ever been seen before or since.
Don dunstan
Human history, if you only count the 20th century. Don, remember it's been heavily inflated by dubious sources such as the now Infamous Black Book of Communism. I have no doubt that claim came from there. A reminder that Capitalism has existed for nearly 400yrs but has only been widespread for around 150 when it managed to dislodge the last remnants of feudalism. That Don, I have disproven earlier in this thread and capitalism has a similar if not likely higher count the the evil Reds.

Yes, western liberal democracies are hardly innocent in this regard particularly with regards to native peoples, the rights of minorities etc. But the United States didn't at any stage inflict a deliberate mass-starvation policy on their own people killing around 30-40 million peoples (then subsequently cover it up). The United States hasn't incarcerated a million Muslims for no other reason than they're Muslim. And instances of human rights violations historical and otherwise can be discussed freely in a western democracy - as opposed to banning all discussion.
Don_dunstan
Seemingly you have forgotten the series of Famines in British India, that were the result of British policy and were just ignored too, Yet we still hail Churchill and the British crown as a hero. Should I Pull statistics out of thin air but I shan't, Conservatively, Capitalism has killed 140 million over the past 100 years in a mix of Wars and Famines, but we just don't blame it on that do we.  The final point of yours is true and agreed with entirely. The United states did however have slavery and counted blacks as if memory serves my right 3/5th human and carried out a again a genocide against the natives .

We're incredibly lucky in this country to be able to reflect on these things - some countries would lock us up just for having this conversation. We have freedoms that we totally take for granted, including freedom from a tyrannical dictatorship that could crush us like bugs just for thinking outside the box.
Don_dunstan
Correct! and I entirely agree with you there! We should protect and strengthen our democratic institutions. Ironic considering from the Western view I'm 'thinking out side the box'. We Need democracy for all, less corporate interference and direct democracy is what we should strive for.
Sorry this took soo long been busy today don.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
If you really believe that communism has received an unfair reputation in the west then you're entitled to that belief. But the fact is that Mao and Stalin between them are the greatest mass murderers of all time, they put Hitler in the shade. The basic fact remains: It was the communist system that allowed these atrocities to be perpetrated.
Don dunstan
Correct and as I live in a western democracy than shan't gulag me for saying it I shall.

'Murder' Implies Purposefully, The Holodomer and famines of the 20's were aimed to wipe out peasants. The holocaust aimed to wipe out the jews from Europe.
Mao was just an misguided and misinformed over optimistic idiot from what I've read, he did allow the famine to continue from the Great leap to nothing but that was not the intention.

Now for the Whataboutery.
The United States allowed people to be owned as slaves and there genocides and wars
Fascism (that is capitalist, the nazi privatised lots of stuff) for obvious reasons
The British empire (for again well known reasons)

that went really off topic.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Human history, if you only count the 20th century. Don, remember it's been heavily inflated by dubious sources such as the now Infamous Black Book of Communism. I have no doubt that claim came from there. A reminder that Capitalism has existed for nearly 400yrs but has only been widespread for around 150 when it managed to dislodge the last remnants of feudalism. That Don, I have disproven earlier in this thread and capitalism has a similar if not likely higher count the the evil Reds.

Seemingly you have forgotten the series of Famines in British India, that were the result of British policy and were just ignored too, Yet we still hail Churchill and the British crown as a hero. Should I Pull statistics out of thin air but I shan't, Conservatively, Capitalism has killed 140 million over the past 100 years in a mix of Wars and Famines, but we just don't blame it on that do we.  The final point of yours is true and agreed with entirely. The United states did however have slavery and counted blacks as if memory serves my right 3/5th human and carried out a again a genocide against the natives .
Correct and as I live in a western democracy than shan't gulag me for saying it I shall.

'Murder' Implies Purposefully, The Holodomer and famines of the 20's were aimed to wipe out peasants. The holocaust aimed to wipe out the jews from Europe.
Mao was just an misguided and misinformed over optimistic idiot from what I've read, he did allow the famine to continue from the Great leap to nothing but that was not the intention.

Now for the Whataboutery.
The United States allowed people to be owned as slaves and there genocides and wars
Fascism (that is capitalist, the nazi privatised lots of stuff) for obvious reasons
The British empire (for again well known reasons)

that went really off topic.
Dangersdan

I combined these three because they're roughly on the same topic.

I'd suggest when you look at these events you need to think about causation. Yeah, the British Empire and the brutal repressions and famines in India in the early (Bengal 1770 was primarily caused by the greed of the East India Company) but there were a lot of famines pre-dating colonialism too. Also do you blame the British for the millions who died in the Partition of India in 1947? Are they responsible for that too? What about the state of modern India where they have a space program but most of the country is still un-sewered some 72 years after the British left... there are some people who argue this is still the fault of the British even though they haven't ruled the place for a very long time.

Anyway my point is that you shouldn't confuse acts of economic or political warfare with deliberate genocide. Mercantilism and the British Empire were also to blame for the proliferation of the slave trade world-wide in the last millennia but then the British were also one of the first countries to abolish it in 1807. Are they still to blame for it existing in the Middle East and Africa some 200+ years later?

For the sake of having a simple argument let's compare the mis-deeds of the British with those of communism. In the case of both Stalin and Mao the genocides that they perpetrated were -
  • On their own people, not against a foreign or colonial adversary;
  • Deliberate, centrally planned and managed.

Make no mistake, both the mass genocides perpetrated by both dictators were deliberate and planned, they were no accident - there was no economic or international players involved, it was not about oppressing colonials - they were doing it purely to kill opponents of their regimes.

In the case of Mao, I've read a few books about his rule and everything about his rein of terror on the Chinese people was about getting power and consolidating it within the Communist Party of China. Even before the mass-starvation of peasants Mao had ordered his subordinates to carry out the Hundred Flowers Campaign which in theory was an intellectual blossoming of China - but instead turned into a purge of intellectuals killing and imprisoning many thousands of potential opponents of the regime. The huge death toll of the Great Leap Forward was due in large part to Mao exporting tonnes of grain and rice to Russia to pay for weaponry while the population in the south and the east were starving en masse to death - he knew this was happening but insisted on paying Khrushchev.

Does that sound like an accident or a deliberate act of genocide? Stalin's story is roughly the same but the purges and warfare against Ukraine in particular happened much earlier before the war and were covered up with the fog of Nazi invasion.

It's a deadly ideology that tends to promote the most psychopathic and paranoid people to the position of ultimate power where they can wage total warfare against opponents. Concentration camps, burning and looting, you name it. Mao in particular was so crazy that he initiated the Cultural Revolution which just about destroyed China in its entirety in his zeal to keep the revolution going and punish counter-revolutionaries.

Not even taught in schools in China today, they can't face the truth of what they did, even Tienanmen Square officially never happened (fancy that!). It's really quite an Orwellian wet dream over there, they've banned Nineteen Eighty Four and Brave New World to boot. They're aiming for full-time 24/7 surveillance of every one of their citizens' actions and thoughts - and technologies that Orwell could never have imagined will allow them to do it.

When has a western liberal democracy done anything in the last century that even comes close to what the communists have done - and are still doing now?
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
I'd suggest when you look at these events you need to think about causation. Yeah, the British Empire and the brutal repressions and famines in India in the early (Bengal 1770 was primarily caused by the greed of the East India Company) but there were a lot of famines pre-dating colonialism too. Also do you blame the British for the millions who died in the Partition of India in 1947? Are they responsible for that too? What about the state of modern India where they have a space program but most of the country is still un-sewered some 72 years after the British left... there are some people who argue this is still the fault of the British even though they haven't ruled the place for a very long time.
The Main famine in India that was referring too was the Bengali famine of 1943, one that was caused by British decisions to redirect supplies to the British isles during the second world war. I did not know of the one in 1770 but thanks for informing me. From what I've read on India The British are only partially to blame for the violence and death that came out of the partition I have deducted. The British Ive read according to William Daleymple argues for one they they can be blamed for destroying the social and religious tolerance in India in the 1850s with the founding of the Raj. India it's honestly bizarre, I do not blame to the Poms for the lack of sewers. One Example of colonial policy I am a fan of is the dutch ethical policy in Indonesia, despite its flaws I'm sure you'll agree had the best of intention and was very different from most colonial policy of the time
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Ethical_Policy

Don_dunstan
Anyway my point is that you shouldn't confuse acts of economic or political warfare with deliberate genocide. Mercantilism and the British Empire were also to blame for the proliferation of the slave trade world-wide in the last millennia but then the British were also one of the first countries to abolish it in 1807. Are they still to blame for it existing in the Middle East and Africa some 200+ years later?
You can defiantly blame the British for how the is Middle East today, Picot Sykes pact literally carved its present day borders and the majority of ethnic and religious issues in the Arab Middle East can be traced back to this agreement. Creating artificial nations based on borders not religion or identity has never worked.

For the sake of having a simple argument let's compare the mis-deeds of the British with those of communism. In the case of both Stalin and Mao the genocides that they perpetrated were - On their own people, not against a foreign or colonial adversary; Deliberate, centrally planned and managed.
The Purges were, undoubtedly planned however the policy that ultimately lead to the holodomer and Great Famine were both not inherently designed to kill 50 million people. I Would count the Population of colonies as 'own people' as India for example by the time of the Bengali famine had been under direct British rule for around 80 years.

Make no mistake, both the mass genocides perpetrated by both dictators were deliberate and planned, they were no accident - there was no economic or international players involved, it was not about oppressing colonials - they were doing it purely to kill opponents of their regimes.
And have we done that before? Yes. Genocide, Famine and political repression are different things. I guess we should now count the Indonesian anti PKI killings as a 'genocide' and we should also count the political repression under a variety of fascist and neo fascist dictators from the last 80 years as 'genocide'. Those were planned too (disgusting whataboutery on my behalf), but they are not counted as genocide.
In the case of Mao, I've read a few books about his rule and everything about his rein of terror on the Chinese people was about getting power and consolidating it within the Communist Party of China. Even before the mass-starvation of peasants Mao had ordered his subordinates to carry out the Hundred Flowers Campaign which in theory was an intellectual blossoming of China - but instead turned into a purge of intellectuals killing and imprisoning many thousands of potential opponents of the regime. The huge death toll of the Great Leap Forward was due in large part to Mao exporting tonnes of grain and rice to Russia to pay for weaponry while the population in the south and the east were starving en masse to death - he knew this was happening but insisted on paying Khrushchev.
Its is interesting to consider that famines of similar proportions had occurred in China since recording began in the early 19th century, with similarly sized famines 1853-73, 76-79, 1907 and 1911. Do we claim the ones in Africa and India are the fault of the government (disgusting wharboutry), the after reading up on China since our last discussion some months ago I have deduced the great leap can be blamed on the government and thus I agree with you on this. And then they decided that Khrushchev was to 'revisionist' and split with him. The Same can be said about the Khamhr Rouge who did the exact same except to the Chinese. (lets not open that can of worms)


Does that sound like an accident or a deliberate act of genocide? Stalin's story is roughly the same but the purges and warfare against Ukraine in particular happened much earlier before the war and were covered up with the fog of Nazi invasion.
The only time I can think of warfare against Ukraine was in the overflowing quagmire of the Russian Russian Civil war in the early to mid 1920s. the Famine I must say was not caused intentionally, the purges most defiantly yes, with the scapegoat of Trotsky to blame. And thus the Revision of History occurred.
It's a deadly ideology that tends to promote the most psychopathic and paranoid people to the position of ultimate power where they can wage total warfare against opponents. Concentration camps, burning and looting, you name it. Mao in particular was so crazy that he initiated the Cultural Revolution which just about destroyed China in its entirety in his zeal to keep the revolution going and punish counter-revolutionaries.
You, seem to focus on china having a particular focus on it. I have condemned Maos Actions multiple times now and I agree after reading books such as 'The Private life of Chairman Mao' by Li Zhisui on this topic that are very unbiased. (written by his doctor of 20ish years). We have literal internment camps too you know.


Not even taught in schools in China today, they can't face the truth of what they did, even Tienanmen Square officially never happened (fancy that!). It's really quite an Orwellian wet dream over there, they've banned Nineteen Eighty Four and Brave New World to boot. They're aiming for full-time 24/7 surveillance of every one of their citizens' actions and thoughts - and technologies that Orwell could never have imagined will allow them to do it.
Don, you know I'm as much a fan of the PRC as you. We all know about they're mass censorship and obsessive desire to control the populace. Have you heard about their Social credit system they ere implementing and the drone tracking in tibet and east turkestan (xainjang)? its literally a Neo-Feudal hierarchy there implementing with a dystopian cyberpunk aesthetic. its  Kind of funny considering Orwell was a communist himself, though one of the libertarian variety. Eric Blair (George Orwells long forgotten name), did a very excellent job critiquing and warning of the dangers of authoritarianism. I've Personally always however interpreted Brave New World however as an anti-capitalist satire text with similar messaging and ideas to John Carpenters They Live.

When has a western liberal democracy done anything in the last century that even comes close to what the communists have done - and are still doing now?
The Main ones I can think of are the Horrific things the French and Belgians did in Africa when decolonisation was occurring along with apartheids in South Africa and Rhodesia, they can't beat Mao or hitlers numbers though.


the Original point of my post Don was that though we should bash the PRC over its atrocities, it would be hypocritical for the west to do so if they don't clean up there act. What difference do the Camps in Turkestan have to ours on Christmas Island and Nauru? Apologies for making you wait



I also have 2 questions (off topic) for you Don.
Why Do you use the alias Don Dunstan?
have you done a political compass test? (just one of the little crappy ones on the internet) because I'm curious to see where you stand on it so I can get an idea. (yes you may disagree with the left-right readings of politics)
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
the Original point of my post Don was that though we should bash the PRC over its atrocities, it would be hypocritical for the west to do so if they don't clean up there act. What difference do the Camps in Turkestan have to ours on Christmas Island and Nauru? Apologies for making you wait
Dangersdan707
Dangersdan, it's all relative and you have to look to see what steps have been taken to either curtail the behaviour or try and make sure it doesn't happen again. The British in India is unrepeatable for various reasons. Sometimes the path to hell is paved with good intentions: Apartheid was supposedly terrible and repressive for the average black South African yet on nearly every measure they are worse off now under ANC rule than they were under Apartheid. Why don't we discuss the fact that our own hand in unseating the former white regime has actually made things worse there? I'm guessing because it's not racist anymore that we think our job was done...

Nairu is nothing, believe me.

Nothing compares to the genocides perpetrated by the Maoist regime in China and yet we're happy to do (lots) of business with them as though those concentration camps and human rights violations aren't happening. Yet we could protest, we could make noise. We could at the very least protest the routine detention and 're-education' of Muslims in China, a minority whose rights we seem very interested in defending in this country. Why the double standard?

Also, if China can't be honest with its own people about its past then it's doomed to fail and we're potentially being dragged into a moral sewer with it just for the sake of a buck. I say that we have to take the moral high ground at some stage and show that we stand for liberal democracy, particularly when the Chinese government thinks they can operate with impunity in this country to intimidate people of Chinese extraction who are now Australians. If we don't stand up for other Aussies then what DO we stand for?

I stay "stuff that". Call it out for what it is. Our largest trading partner is a repressive, undemocratic Communist government that obtained power illegitimately and will in the future kill as many millions as it takes to stay in power, just like they have in the past.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Incidentally Mao was a coward who ran away to the east of the country as the Japanese invaded and left the KMT to try and deal with them. They try and make out now-days like he was some kind of hero engaging in "The Long March" but he wasn't, he ran away and left the Chinese peasantry at the mercy of the Japanese military.

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