2019 Federal Election Thread

 
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Pretty meaningless statistic. I could say that tens of millions of Indians died as a result of British democracy. Or tens of millions of Iranians under US democracy. Or how about the people murdered under oppressive Islamist regimes?
reubstar6
Again, it was the communist system that allowed the systematic torture, starvation and execution of a hundred million people. The British, Hitler, Pol Pot - all other genocides combined probably don't even come close to that figure.
Easy to say that when only exposed to US propaganda. I'm by no means saying that communism is a perfect ideology, but it's far better than fascism, religious rule (e.g. Sharia Law, Christianity back in the day), colonialism, etc.
reubstar6
I'm just going to keep repeating the fact that communist rule killed more people than any other ideology ever. Because it's true.

You might want to keep apologising for it or saying "it's all relative" or whatever, but the fact is that when we are dealing with a totalitarian communist regime we have to keep in mind the fact that they've thought nothing of starving to death 30-40 million of their own citizens and then covering it up. You're not allowed to discuss the death toll from the Great Leap Forward in China or that will land you in jail.

We're allowed to discuss the death toll from Aboriginal colonisation without fear of going to jail. We have an open society here which in theory should prevent us going down the path of genocide again.

Not so in a communist country, they're not free. They don't have a proper rule of law, their courts are political and there's no attempt at justice in those countries.

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  michaelgm Deputy Commissioner

It's now called CFMMEU, the Maritime division has been absorbed, IIRC.

And the crane driver referred above, was well entitled to tell said official to F_off.
Unions are there to represent and advise, ONLY.
Like legal and financial advice, to act only on instructions.

The Cleanevent debacle, was probably an official taking too much Liberty!!!  And .....
Have a vague recollection and it is just, of being shafted in late 80's early 90's under similar circumstances.
Officials were absolutely put back in their box, and never occurred again.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
It's now called CFMMEU, the Maritime division has been absorbed, IIRC.

And the crane driver referred above, was well entitled to tell said official to F_off.
Unions are there to represent and advise, ONLY.
Like legal and financial advice, to act only on instructions.

The Cleanevent debacle, was probably an official taking too much Liberty!!!  And .....
Have a vague recollection and it is just, of being shafted in late 80's early 90's under similar circumstances.
Officials were absolutely put back in their box, and never occurred again.
michaelgm
Thanks

Yes some seem to forget in this day and age of safety and liability only those employees and contractors who have passed inductions and what ever else are allowed on site. Gone are the days where the unions had direct access to the "coal face".
  Heath Assistant Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
The reason why Labor lost the election was because selfish Australians are too busy thinking, for the short term, about their negatively geared investment properties and their franked superannuation retirement nest eggs instead of being selfless Australians and thinking, for the long term, about our climate change emergency and our lack of affordable housing. Furthermore Bill Shorten wasn't the best leader plus the rank and file people wanted Albo to lead the party all along...
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
The reason why Labor lost the election was because selfish Australians are too busy thinking, for the short term, about their negatively geared investment properties and their franked retirement nest eggs instead of being selfless Australians and thinking, for the long term, about our climate change and our lack of affordable housing. Plus Bill Shorten wasnt the best leader as the people wanted Albo all along...
Heath Loxton
Nah Labor, are a deformed workers party. I personally don't think Albo would change labor that much, though I'm happy to be proven wrong. The were there first to Endorse Neo-liberalism in this country and implement it and have jumped fully on the identity politics bandwagon. Deformed from a workers party truely...
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
The reason why Labor lost the election was because selfish Australians are too busy thinking, for the short term, about their negatively geared investment properties and their franked retirement nest eggs instead of being selfless Australians and thinking, for the long term, about our climate change and our lack of affordable housing. Plus Bill Shorten wasnt the best leader as the people wanted Albo all along...
Heath Loxton
ALP lost for a few reasons

On order
1) Billy Shorten, I think most in the ALP now accept that he was never going to be PM, too much history and not trusted. In future do not go to an election with a leader who struggles to get even 40% support. Its likely AA would have gotten the ALP over the line or at least alot closer.

2) Do not go to a general election from opposition with new taxes that affect millions of voters, especially retirees. Look how Howard brought in the GST and it nearly cost him govt.

3) Climate Change is important to most, however most Australian's want a balanced approach which clearly hasn't happened in the last 10 years or we wouldn't have the world's highest electricity and gas prices yet still reliant on coal for 75% of our power. Trying to appear that you haven't learnt you lesson from Gillard's "No CO2 tax" hard line thinking was not smart and only appealed to the unsmart portion of the population.

Majority of Australian voters always think 3 years, its been going on for 119 years and hasn't changed, so don't assume it suddenly will.

AA has I think now the mandate to make significant changes in the ALP and asking for that Union's head resignation is likely the first of many, however as Billy didn't resign from his seat, AA needs to watch his back.


Edit: Calling your fellow Aussie's "selfish" because they didn't vote your direction is nothing more than being a bad sport (polite version).
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
AA has I think now the mandate to make significant changes in the ALP and asking for that Union's head resignation is likely the first of many, however as Billy didn't resign from his seat, AA needs to watch his back.
RTT_Rules
Well you got it wrong about Abort, want to make it 2 out of 2. Bill is not a Tony or Kevin. He may well exit before the end of this parliament.

If the LNPs tax cuts can't be split then Labor should just let this one through to the keeper. At least those on the wrong side of the ledger will get something and they'll spend it. As for forward estimates, who really cares.
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Hello All,

1 / the Trade Unions established, and have consistently funded the ALP.

2 / the Trade Unions generally support ALP MPs both financially and with volunteers. ( As also do non TU ALP members. )

3 / Trade Union Officials , and many Trade Union Delegates are elected by Postal ballots run by The Australian Electoral Commission, this is noteably NOT the case for ANY political Party Officials, nor is it the case for Company Directors.

( If a Trade Union Executive meeting was run like Company AGMs, they would be de-registered. )

4 / The ALP does NOT have the authority to sack elected Trade Union Officials it does not like.

5 / ALP MPs, especially when in Opposition, constantly go to Trade Union offices to seek political support.

6 / many ALP staffers either come from, or work from, Trade Union offices.

7 / all too often, ALP MPs refuse to speak out in support of Trade Unions, especially when they are under attack from a Coalition Government. The current proposed Ensuring Integrity Bill, being proposed by Christian Porter, is intended to give the Government , and other organisations, the power to deregister Trade Unions.

For all their faults, Trade Unions in Australia are the most tightly regulated private organisations in the country. They are also the only non government organisations in the country to have The Australian Electoral Commission run their elections.

8 / I well remember when the BLF was pursued and deregistered by a Labour Government, and I remember when Norm Gallagher was pursued through the Courts for corruption, only to find out that many companies tried ( unsuccessfully ) to corrupt the BLF, AND WERE NOT PROSECUTED, yet Norm WAS prosecuted for allegedly stealing a portable garage used to protect a CFA fire truck over the summer holidays on Phillip Island. When this case went to the Magistrate's Court, it was revealed that this same shed had done the Phillip Island holiday duty for 18 years ! The Magistrate threw the case out, and Norm was not convicted despite a long and sustained campaign to have him locked up.

( A fellow workmate, now deceased, was once a builders labourer on CBD sites. He would stoutly defend Norm Gallagher as he said that prior to Norm, building sites had ZERO amenities. It was Norm who got toilets, meal rooms, , locker rooms, and proper safety gear. )

9 / The building industry is rife with underpayments, and it has been estimated that up to a third of contractors do not get paid. It is the CFMEU which ensures that its members get paid their wages and entitlements. We have buildings put up by developers that are non compliant , or structurally unsound, or covered with inflammable materials, yet somehow the CFMEU is the greatest threat to the building industry.

10 / I note that it would appear that the unfortunate owners of the evacuated Mascot Towers are solely liable for repairs. The builder is no longer liable, and being structurally unsound, and therefore non compliant, the insurer is not liable, so the owners are potentially stuck with a building which may yet be condemned and ordered to be demolished.

Regards, Radioman.
  michaelgm Deputy Commissioner

Radioman, also note that any decision to take protected industrial action, also goes to a ballot, conducted by the AEC.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
But Radioman, wasn't Mascot Towers built by Construction Industry union members?
It wasn't the developer who actually poured the concrete.
If the developer was doing stuff on the cheap,  where was the council engineers checking the work?   Who signed off on the building?
  Heath Assistant Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
Nah Labor, are a deformed workers party. I personally don't think Albo would change labor that much, though I'm happy to be proven wrong. The were there first to Endorse Neo-liberalism in this country and implement it and have jumped fully on the identity politics bandwagon. Deformed from a workers party truely...
Dangersdan707
I agree. All i hear from Labor left members is petty and divisive identity politics. All i hear from Labor right members is greedy and selfish neo-liberalism. I am a Labor member myself and i do not support either Identity politics or neo-liberalism.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
Time to change your political party then, Heath.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Heath, the closest to what you're thinking is the DLP.  But they have a habit of cultivating internal strife too.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Heath, the closest to what you're thinking is the DLP.  But they have a habit of cultivating internal strife too.
Carnot
Nah there's the SEP and Katter.... if you accept their exterior appearances. both seemingly hate neoliberalism and Identity politics.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
But Radioman, wasn't Mascot Towers built by Construction Industry union members?
It wasn't the developer who actually poured the concrete.
Donald
Do you actually understand how a building gets from concept to completion, who is involved in the various stages and who is legally responsible for the work performed.

If the developer was doing stuff on the cheap,  where was the council engineers checking the work?   Who signed off on the building?
Donald
Isn't your lot all about deregulation, cutting red tape, outsourcing regulator work to third parties and supporting self regulation. Now where does most of the money saved end up Surprised
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Sometimes I hate being right: Christopher Pyne accepts a job with a defense industry consultancy less than two months after leaving parliament, clearly in breach of the rules that state he needs to wait eighteen months - from the ABC;

Mr Pyne, who was defence minister until the election, yesterday revealed he has taken a job as a defence consultant with multinational business advisers EY.

"I am looking forward to providing strategic advice to EY, as the firm looks to expand its footprint in the defence industry," Mr Pyne said in a statement.

But Centre Alliance senator Rex Patrick has called on the Prime Minister to reprimand Mr Pyne for taking the position, which he argues breaches the Statement of Ministerial Standards.

It states that for 18 months after they leave office, former ministers "will not lobby, advocate or have business meetings with members of the Government … on any matters on which they have had official dealings as minister"

Our Prime Minister needs to step up to the plate and deal out some kind of punishment for this flagrant misuse of position... then again who am I kidding? They won't do a thing.
  michaelgm Deputy Commissioner

Pyne, the $50 billion man.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Don there is no such restriction on taking a job after leaving office.

The 18 month restriction is actually quite pointless anyway, nonetheless, it’s a restriction on LOBBYING, not employment.

Pyne is free to take whichever job he likes/can get, he just won’t be getting any time speaking to ministers for 18 months. In the meantime he is correct in what he says he can do - viz providing strategic advice. No issue here.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Don there is no such restriction on taking a job after leaving office.

The 18 month restriction is actually quite pointless anyway, nonetheless, it’s a restriction on LOBBYING, not employment.

Pyne is free to take whichever job he likes/can get, he just won’t be getting any time speaking to ministers for 18 months. In the meantime he is correct in what he says he can do - viz providing strategic advice. No issue here.
Aaron
Aaron, what the ministerial code-of-conduct actually says is that ex-ministers can't use their insider position to "lobby, advocate or have business meetings with members of the Government … on any matters on which they have had official dealings as minister". They're supposed to wait at least 18 months before they can do that kind of consultancy.

EY clearly did not employ Christopher Pyne for his looks, their doing it because they are hoping to pick up some of the defence contract work of which Pyne is very well versed.

It's clearly a breach of the standards (for all they are worth) but I bet you two bob to a pound of cocky poop that ScoMo will feign ignorance and do nothing.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Don there is no such restriction on taking a job after leaving office.

The 18 month restriction is actually quite pointless anyway, nonetheless, it’s a restriction on LOBBYING, not employment.

Pyne is free to take whichever job he likes/can get, he just won’t be getting any time speaking to ministers for 18 months. In the meantime he is correct in what he says he can do - viz providing strategic advice. No issue here.
Aaron
...and pointless trying to control peoples next job anyway. I know a few people who had these contractual controls, not in Australia but they just got another job for 18mths while working off contract behind closed doors or use this time to set up their consultancy, but officially don't go live until 18mths is up.

I know others in Australia who were just threatened with legal action to declare their next place of employment when they resigned, they just kept their mouth shut, took their next job and the employer keeps them out of a public role for a period of time.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Don you wrote it again, but still don’t get it.

He can take any job he likes and simply not have those dealings within 18 months many companies retain personnel or otherwise keep them occupied in other roles until circumstances require a task. The contractor/consultancy market is all over it.

As RTT says, I am not entirely sure that past employers actually have power to dictate future employment terms anyway, in any case to enforce them in this case the government would need legislation and I am all but certain there isn’t any.

Perhaps what is really required is for the ministerial code of conduct to be rewritten putting the responsibility of maintaining such a separation on the incumbent not seeking, securing or accepting influence from the preceding minister for such a period.

This would lose the oddity of big brother omg future employment and keep the burden of compliance on those still ‘within the payroll’, and to the ministers over whom the cabinet, PM and parliament still have some control.

I can tell you this, if my past employer called to tell me off over something I did post my employment with them I would be telling not only ‘to get smeg’ but precisely when, where and for how much they could do so.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
He can take any job he likes and simply not have those dealings within 18 months many companies retain personnel or otherwise keep them occupied in other roles until circumstances require a task. The contractor/consultancy market is all over it.
Aaron
So a consultancy is going to hire an ex-minister but he's not going to front any meetings or lobby any member of the government for at least 18 months?

Pull the other one.
  7334 Chief Commissioner

Location: In the workshop wondering why I started 7334 in the first place
He can take any job he likes and simply not have those dealings within 18 months many companies retain personnel or otherwise keep them occupied in other roles until circumstances require a task. The contractor/consultancy market is all over it.
So a consultancy is going to hire an ex-minister but he's not going to front any meetings or lobby any member of the government for at least 18 months?

Pull the other one.
don_dunstan
He wouldn't have to actually do so.  All he has to do to be of value to the new employer is give the right advice and steer them in the right direction to obtain the outcome they are seeking.  Someone else can do the lobbying.

To put it another way, your value is in being able to provide the key to the door, being the one who actually uses it to open that door is irrelevant.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
He can take any job he likes and simply not have those dealings within 18 months many companies retain personnel or otherwise keep them occupied in other roles until circumstances require a task. The contractor/consultancy market is all over it.
So a consultancy is going to hire an ex-minister but he's not going to front any meetings or lobby any member of the government for at least 18 months?

Pull the other one.
He wouldn't have to actually do so.  All he has to do to be of value to the new employer is give the right advice and steer them in the right direction to obtain the outcome they are seeking.  Someone else can do the lobbying.

To put it another way, your value is in being able to provide the key to the door, being the one who actually uses it to open that door is irrelevant.
7334
Even if he did technically break the rules it's only a 'code of conduct' - what would his punishment be anyway?

There's a number of facts here that really worry me:
  • Defence is one of the biggest single spending items in the budget and accounts for one fifth of all government expenditure.
  • Most contracts to large multinational organisations don't go out to tender because of 'confidential' clauses - almost all the $43 billion spent is therefore uncontested and shrouded in secrecy.
  • Defence spending has exploded in the last five years and now accounts for 71% of all government procurement/tenders.
  • We have a Minister of the Crown going straight from a job overseeing confidential and sensitive spending to an organisation already reaping $100 million in 'fees' from the government, again, uncontested and secret.
The "Ministerial Code of Conduct" (not worth the paper it's written on but nevertheless) says specifically that ex-Ministers are "...also required to undertake that, on leaving office, they will not take personal advantage of information to which they have had access as a minister, where that information is not generally available to the public."

Clearly, Christopher Pyne has breached that standard. The fact that nothing will happen to stop the looting of Treasury by these consultants is a foregone conclusion.

Again, when I look at my country now-days I see somewhat of an Argentina or South Africa progression happening; corruption has become so brazen, large and organised that its putting the very integrity of our government at risk.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
We've followed the US to the point where consultancy firms are huge beneficiaries of government programs. No wonder it's a huge employer of ex-politicians/public servants/military personnel. If the US experience is any guide taxpayers may not be getting value for money.
Again, when I look at my country now-days I see somewhat of an Argentina or South Africa progression happening; corruption has become so brazen, large and organised that its putting the very integrity of our government at risk.
don_dunstan

Since 9/11 our politicians have steadily moved themselves beyond effective scrutiny. If something may prove controversial or embarrassing make it secret. Australians have less right to know than 23 other nations including the USA and UK.
Democracy cannot function within totalitarian boundaries.

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