Driverless metro service confirmed for north south rail link

 

News article: Driverless metro service confirmed for north south rail link

The North South Rail Link between Western Sydney Aerotropolis and St Marys will be a turn-up-and-go driverless metro service.

  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

As I've already said previously, I don't agree with this decision.  The low density outer suburbs of Sydney, notwithstanding the new airport and Aerotropolis, is not the place for a high capacity metro service, forcing interchange to the existing network to and from other regions.  

It would be of far more value if the new line was compatible with the existing network, allowing for example a continuous Cumberland Line loop by extending the SWRL to the airport and on to St Marys, which would pick up most major stations in Sydney's West.  It would also potentially provide a faster express service to the CBD via the SWRL and East Hills Line than an all stations metro extension of Metro West.  

Similarly, a compatible line from Macarthur to interchange with the Metro Northwest at Schofields on the Richmond Line via the airport and St Marys, sharing tracks, would have more benefits.  It wouldn't preclude compatible SD operation, with greater seating capacity than the current metro, as well as ATO to ETCS Level 2 standard which is being implemented across the network anyway.  It doesn't need a totally isolated incompatible metro system, just to satisfy the ideological whims of the Liberal government.

Driverless metro service confirmed for north south rail link

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  simstrain Chief Commissioner

the metro is going to become the standard. The sydney trains network is going to be downgraded to intercity and freight traffic in time.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
No issues with the line from St Mary's to the airport, but from Leppington to the Airport it should be DD with trains running from Central via Mascot Airport, Express East Hills Line to Glenfield and then all to the Airport via Leppington.

Last thing we need is people with luggage changing bloody trains from CBD or Mascot to BC Airport or VV.

Metro from CBD via Parramatta and St Mary's again needs to be the same train all the way through.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

No issues with the line from St Mary's to the airport, but from Leppington to the Airport it should be DD with trains running from Central via Mascot Airport, Express East Hills Line to Glenfield and then all to the Airport via Leppington.

Last thing we need is people with luggage changing bloody trains from CBD or Mascot to BC Airport or VV.

Metro from CBD via Parramatta and St Mary's again needs to be the same train all the way through.
RTT_Rules

people from the cbd will have the airport in the cbd. From what I understand the aerotropils will have check in and out functionality.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
No issues with the line from St Mary's to the airport, but from Leppington to the Airport it should be DD with trains running from Central via Mascot Airport, Express East Hills Line to Glenfield and then all to the Airport via Leppington.

Last thing we need is people with luggage changing bloody trains from CBD or Mascot to BC Airport or VV.

Metro from CBD via Parramatta and St Mary's again needs to be the same train all the way through.

people from the cbd will have the airport in the cbd. From what I understand the aerotropils will have check in and out functionality.
simstrain
As someone who lives in a city with two international airports, indeed four international airports within 120km of my house, you don't choose the airport based on how close it is, rather where you want to go, price and airline.

The two airports need to be connected by a single journey railway and as Mascot is connected to CBD by train it effectively is a unbroken train  journey. The Western/Airport Metro provides a 2nd unbroken journey from the CBD and Paramatta.

Remote Check-in's have their benefits and I've used this in HK, but not a one size suits all and you can guarantee in the early years of the airports life, the services the airport provides such as this will be limited.
  Heath Assistant Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
Gladys has really stuffed up the trains in Sydney big time. Think unnecessary automatic metros, Newcastle line truncation, pending branch line closures, etc.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Gladys has really stuffed up the trains in Sydney big time. Think unnecessary automatic metros, Newcastle line truncation, pending branch line closures, etc.
Heath Loxton
Not quite

Driverless Metro is the way of the future, its what others are doing and it makes economic sense. Lower cost construction and operation. Sydney cannot expect rapid expansion of the rail network when it costs 65c in the $1 subsidy to run ontop of its already premium construction cost compounded by the need for most expansion to be underground.

The Driverless approach is not a Glady'ism either, the ALP were going to do the same thing for the same reason and previously investigated large scale conversion of the Sydney network, only the cost and inconvenience of doing so stopped them.

I'm not as convinced as Sim's that the govt plans a longterm large scale conversion of the current DD network, but I believe some additional sections will eventually be taken or their stations replaced by an alt Metro, the Inner West being a likely target.


As for Newcastle,  No I don't support this, the line should have been sunk pure and simple, cut and cover is cheap as chips if you can close the line for 18mths while the work is done. They could have merged Newcastle and Civic or gone one better and extended the sunk line closer to the beach to achieve what the tram has done with an extra station ie Honeysuckle inserted between Civic and Wickham.

However ultimately this was not Glady's fault, various parties from Newcastle have been crying for closure for decades in one form or another, even not long after the wires were strung up, they wanted them removed and returned to diesel. Under the ALP the whole line almost got cut with reported directives not to improve the LX synchronization to help justify its closure. The former Mayor of Newcastle should be the one drawn and quartered over this as he called for it then changed sides after it closed.

I know there are claims the developers want the railway corridor, but a railway corridor is long and narrow and of little use for development and I'd be surprised if the current LNP govt regardless of who is Premier will ever release it.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

Gladys has really stuffed up the trains in Sydney big time. Think unnecessary automatic metros, Newcastle line truncation, pending branch line closures, etc.
Heath Loxton
could you give us a list of railways, both opened and closed by the State Labor government?

I believe it was Labour who closed the Murwillumbah line for example?
  jcouch Assistant Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a commuter train
It's pretty obvious why they've done it: Extend from St Mary's up to Schofields and then join the end of the NWRL. Likely you'll see the other end branch and head towards the Liverpool end of the metro to make a loop.  Continuing south to Macarthur is an interesting choice, but makes sense if you're going to be putting in new lines. Not too much north-south commuting right now, and those that will be are commuting to the new industrial areas around the airport and the uni.
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

the metro is going to become the standard. The sydney trains network is going to be downgraded to intercity and freight traffic in time.
simstrain
That's a bit far fetched.  Are you seriously considering that the complex Sydney Trains' network with its multiple branching, including the current City Underground, would be converted to metro?  It's a pipe dream.  It would be a complete waste of resources, when the current network can be upgraded at far less cost.  The money would be better spent in providing new metro lines in the inner and middle ring suburbs which don't have a rail service, which would include cross regional links.
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

It's pretty obvious why they've done it: Extend from St Mary's up to Schofields and then join the end of the NWRL. Likely you'll see the other end branch and head towards the Liverpool end of the metro to make a loop.  Continuing south to Macarthur is an interesting choice, but makes sense if you're going to be putting in new lines. Not too much north-south commuting right now, and those that will be are commuting to the new industrial areas around the airport and the uni.
jcouch
The current plan is to extend the Metro Northwest to Schofields on the Richmond Line, where it would interchange to a future link to St Marys.  It won't be a continuous link.  So it could potentially be either a separate metro line or part of the existing network, which IMO would be preferable.

In any event, I don't see it connecting with an extension of the Bankstown Metro to Liverpool.   More likely it will be with the longer term link to Macarthur, whether metro or part of the existing network.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
It's pretty obvious why they've done it: Extend from St Mary's up to Schofields and then join the end of the NWRL. Likely you'll see the other end branch and head towards the Liverpool end of the metro to make a loop.  Continuing south to Macarthur is an interesting choice, but makes sense if you're going to be putting in new lines. Not too much north-south commuting right now, and those that will be are commuting to the new industrial areas around the airport and the uni.
jcouch
The Metro will never head south of BC, the extension of the DD line from Leppington is logical and why anyone would consider extending the Metro south of the airport doesn't make sense.

There will never be an extension west of of Liverpool to the airport as you already have Leppington which is cheaper.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
It's pretty obvious why they've done it: Extend from St Mary's up to Schofields and then join the end of the NWRL. Likely you'll see the other end branch and head towards the Liverpool end of the metro to make a loop.  Continuing south to Macarthur is an interesting choice, but makes sense if you're going to be putting in new lines. Not too much north-south commuting right now, and those that will be are commuting to the new industrial areas around the airport and the uni.
jcouch
If the Western Metro is indeed extended to St Mary's and then south to the airport then it would make sense for the NWRL Metro extension to connect to St Mary;s and then trains can run through to the airport if demand was there, which I doubt. So a transfer at St Mary's is likely outcome over running empty trains.

Macarthur to airport line makes no sense for at least 30 years.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Gladys has really stuffed up the trains in Sydney big time. Think unnecessary automatic metros, Newcastle line truncation, pending branch line closures, etc.
Not quite

Driverless Metro is the way of the future, its what others are doing and it makes economic sense. Lower cost construction and operation. Sydney cannot expect rapid expansion of the rail network when it costs 65c in the $1 subsidy to run ontop of its already premium construction cost compounded by the need for most expansion to be underground.

The Driverless approach is not a Glady'ism either, the ALP were going to do the same thing for the same reason and previously investigated large scale conversion of the Sydney network, only the cost and inconvenience of doing so stopped them.

I'm not as convinced as Sim's that the govt plans a longterm large scale conversion of the current DD network, but I believe some additional sections will eventually be taken or their stations replaced by an alt Metro, the Inner West being a likely target.


As for Newcastle,  No I don't support this, the line should have been sunk pure and simple, cut and cover is cheap as chips if you can close the line for 18mths while the work is done. They could have merged Newcastle and Civic or gone one better and extended the sunk line closer to the beach to achieve what the tram has done with an extra station ie Honeysuckle inserted between Civic and Wickham.

However ultimately this was not Glady's fault, various parties from Newcastle have been crying for closure for decades in one form or another, even not long after the wires were strung up, they wanted them removed and returned to diesel. Under the ALP the whole line almost got cut with reported directives not to improve the LX synchronization to help justify its closure. The former Mayor of Newcastle should be the one drawn and quartered over this as he called for it then changed sides after it closed.

I know there are claims the developers want the railway corridor, but a railway corridor is long and narrow and of little use for development and I'd be surprised if the current LNP govt regardless of who is Premier will ever release it.
RTT_Rules
The present heavy weight network will become driver only, and that will be incremental, depending on when the older DD stock is replaced with Waratahs or similar. Greenfield Metros will of course be driver less. It is called progress and only a fool would oppose it.

The cut and cover method mentioned for the former Newcastle line may not have been so simple as suggested as the whole route is in a very sandy environment and riddled with old coal mines.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
The present heavy weight network will become driver only, and that will be incremental, depending on when the older DD stock is replaced with Waratahs or similar. Greenfield Metros will of course be driver less. It is called progress and only a fool would oppose it.

The cut and cover method mentioned for the former Newcastle line may not have been so simple as suggested as the whole route is in a very sandy environment and riddled with old coal mines.
nswtrains
True
May actually be easier to automate the driver and leave the guard as a CSO.

The Dubai Metro goes under the Creek, twice, its all sand, I'm sure NSW in Newcastle can manage to do something even if cut and cover doesn't work for the whole route.
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
As I've already said previously, I don't agree with this decision.  The low density outer suburbs of Sydney, notwithstanding the new airport and Aerotropolis, is not the place for a high capacity metro service, forcing interchange to the existing network to and from other regions.  

It would be of far more value if the new line was compatible with the existing network, allowing for example a continuous Cumberland Line loop by extending the SWRL to the airport and on to St Marys, which would pick up most major stations in Sydney's West.  It would also potentially provide a faster express service to the CBD via the SWRL and East Hills Line than an all stations metro extension of Metro West.  

Similarly, a compatible line from Macarthur to interchange with the Metro Northwest at Schofields on the Richmond Line via the airport and St Marys, sharing tracks, would have more benefits.  It wouldn't preclude compatible SD operation, with greater seating capacity than the current metro, as well as ATO to ETCS Level 2 standard which is being implemented across the network anyway.  It doesn't need a totally isolated incompatible metro system, just to satisfy the ideological whims of the Liberal government.

Driverless metro service confirmed for north south rail link
Transtopic
I agree with this, the metro service is not right for the areas is serves. Hour long trips to the city should not involve metro rolling stock with 100% longitudinal seating.

I would however, support single deck rolling stock with 2x2 reversible seating provided that more services could run to provide more seats than what is currently on offer.

I would not support another totally isolated incompatible metro system, but I would support the new lines being able to become isolated in future to reduce chances of issues like points failure, and one delayed train causing cascading delays on the entire network.
Since we are now stuck with the metro as it is, would this be an exention of the Metro Northwest, running through Schofields, then an underground route following roughly the same alignment as the old Ropes Creek Line, before continuing to Badgery's Creek? or would this be an extention of the future Metro west? It would make no sense for this to be a separate isolated metro line when the line to Leppington forms the foundation of a conventional heavy rail link.

the metro is going to become the standard. The sydney trains network is going to be downgraded to intercity and freight traffic in time.
simstrain
I support isolation of suburban lines in future, as I mentioned, reduce chances of points failure and cascading delays.
I just don't support staffless operation and 100% longitudinal seating.

Gladys has really stuffed up the trains in Sydney big time. Think unnecessary automatic metros, Newcastle line truncation, pending branch line closures, etc.
Heath Loxton
The Newcastle Line truncation was the biggest waste of PT money ever spent! In a city with almost no usable PT, with one of the councils wanting a station next to their local shopping centre, this is what we get; another (the Newcastle CBD line closure was nothing new, it was the 5th line that carried passengers that has closed in the area) heavy rail line in the area closed and a toy tram - at least it wasn't another rail trail.

Driverless Metro is the way of the future, its what others are doing and it makes economic sense. Lower cost construction and operation. Sydney cannot expect rapid expansion of the rail network when it costs 65c in the $1 subsidy to run ontop of its already premium construction cost compounded by the need for most expansion to be underground.
RTT_Rules
Call me old fashioned, but with far more job seekers than jobs, I don't think we should be looking at staff cuts to reduce subsidies, maybe to start with we should be doing things like taking 8 carriage trains off the Olympic Park line.
Add on to that that some people don't feel save on driveless trains (even if the technology is proven), and there is no one there in case of emergency.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
I support isolation of suburban lines in future, as I mentioned, reduce chances of points failure and cascading delays.
I just don't support staffless operation and 100% longitudinal seating.

Gladys has really stuffed up the trains in Sydney big time. Think unnecessary automatic metros, Newcastle line truncation, pending branch line closures, etc.
The Newcastle Line truncation was the biggest waste of PT money ever spent! In a city with almost no usable PT, with one of the councils wanting a station next to their local shopping centre, this is what we get; another (the Newcastle CBD line closure was nothing new, it was the 5th line that carried passengers that has closed in the area) heavy rail line in the area closed and a toy tram - at least it wasn't another rail trail.

Driverless Metro is the way of the future, its what others are doing and it makes economic sense. Lower cost construction and operation. Sydney cannot expect rapid expansion of the rail network when it costs 65c in the $1 subsidy to run ontop of its already premium construction cost compounded by the need for most expansion to be underground.
Call me old fashioned, but with far more job seekers than jobs, I don't think we should be looking at staff cuts to reduce subsidies, maybe to start with we should be doing things like taking 8 carriage trains off the Olympic Park line.
Add on to that that some people don't feel save on driveless trains (even if the technology is proven), and there is no one there in case of emergency.
Ethan1395
Mr Old Fashioned (you asked),
Why not put a steam engine upfront of the rolling stock, it needs more staff.

Sydney's Rail network is costly to build and run, it we want more we need to lower the cost and expand using 21st century technology, not 19th century. Crewed trains are a thing of the past if the infrastructure is built right. More Metro still requires jobs and often higher paid jobs as the jobs become more technical, so out with the old jobs and in with the new. Its being going on for 400 years.

Get the crew out of their cabins, had control of the train over to a computer and convert the roles to combination of customer service, revenue protection and asset protection, everyone wins.

Part of the reasons for rail lines closing in Newcastle is insufficient revenue to off-set the cost of operation.

Driverless trains operate globally with safety and reliability records far exceeding manual driven trains, their performance is well documented, lets not add myths to the arguments.

Olympic Park line was built a economic and logistical disaster to run from the start, replacing with the Western Metro for all but major events will solve the situation.

Newcastle has been calling for the curtailment of the Newcastle branch for decades, don't blame anyone in Sydney for giving what they wished for.
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
Mr Old Fashioned (you asked),
Why not put a steam engine upfront of the rolling stock, it needs more staff.

Sydney's Rail network is costly to build and run, it we want more we need to lower the cost and expand using 21st century technology, not 19th century. Crewed trains are a thing of the past if the infrastructure is built right. More Metro still requires jobs and often higher paid jobs as the jobs become more technical, so out with the old jobs and in with the new. Its being going on for 400 years.

Get the crew out of their cabins, had control of the train over to a computer and convert the roles to combination of customer service, revenue protection and asset protection, everyone wins.

Part of the reasons for rail lines closing in Newcastle is insufficient revenue to off-set the cost of operation.

Driverless trains operate globally with safety and reliability records far exceeding manual driven trains, their performance is well documented, lets not add myths to the arguments.

Olympic Park line was built a economic and logistical disaster to run from the start, replacing with the Western Metro for all but major events will solve the situation.

Newcastle has been calling for the curtailment of the Newcastle branch for decades, don't blame anyone in Sydney for giving what they wished for.
RTT_Rules
Well if putting a steam engine up front is the only way to provide enough jobs for everyone - then do it, but I don't think things need to be taken to such extremes.
Would there be enough jobs in customer service and revenue protection for every former driver and guard if theoretically all Sydney suburban operations were automated? even if there were, would there be enough jobs in Australia for the entire population able people in Australia? no, when we get to that point, then we can start automating.
I'm familiar with the safety record worldwide for driverless trains, but some people still worry and I imagine they would want at least one staff member on board for emergencies.

What mad person thought it was smart to run 8 carriage trains to Olympic Park though? at least the weekday services were changed to 4 carriages in 2017, but weekend services remain at 8 carriages as they run Waratah's, if they want to run a more modern train, why not a 4 carriage Millennium Set?
And why Lidcombe Platform 0? why not make Olympic Park the terminus of Inner West locals (Homebush is a silly place to terminate) or Bankstown via Regents Park services?

Regarding the Newcastle branch, I was just saying what a waste of money it's closure and replacement toy tram was? And when they wanted something closed it was done, but when they wanted a new local station (Glendale), nothing was done.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Well if putting a steam engine up front is the only way to provide enough jobs for everyone - then do it, but I don't think things need to be taken to such extremes.
Would there be enough jobs in customer service and revenue protection for every former driver and guard if theoretically all Sydney suburban operations were automated? even if there were, would there be enough jobs in Australia for the entire population able people in Australia? no, when we get to that point, then we can start automating.
I'm familiar with the safety record worldwide for driverless trains, but some people still worry and I imagine they would want at least one staff member on board for emergencies.

What mad person thought it was smart to run 8 carriage trains to Olympic Park though? at least the weekday services were changed to 4 carriages in 2017, but weekend services remain at 8 carriages as they run Waratah's, if they want to run a more modern train, why not a 4 carriage Millennium Set?
And why Lidcombe Platform 0? why not make Olympic Park the terminus of Inner West locals (Homebush is a silly place to terminate) or Bankstown via Regents Park services?

Regarding the Newcastle branch, I was just saying what a waste of money it's closure and replacement toy tram was? And when they wanted something closed it was done, but when they wanted a new local station (Glendale), nothing was done.
Ethan1395
The self loading cattle don't worry, they don't even give a crap. They just want to get to work and not deal with the fall out of another driver dispute over whatever who cares and yes if the trains run more frequently because we don't need to worry about driver/guard costs, then so be it. If anything the need to manually operate the train is holding us back, not moving forward.

No the steam era example was not an extreme. I'm sure you have seen the video's of cars pulling into a petrol station in the 50's where 4 guys then descended on your car. One for fuel, one for tyres, one checking oil and one for cleaning the windscreen. Now you often don't even pay the cashier, yet what happened to these guys, we don't have streets full of unemployed guys who's only skill was to put air into tyres, wash a window? As a result your fuel is cheaper. In 10 years time, the existing Petrol stations themselves will be in decline thanks to EV's.

You don't stop automation on a whim, you grab technology as it becomes available and capitalise on it. In the private sector its called being innovative and leads to long-term survival and potential growth of a business and with it jobs.  

If you are familiar with automated lines that exist now, you will see life continues in those cities as it will Sydney.

4 car sets in Sydney are on the way out, there are no new trains being ordered and there is no need for them. Olympic Park DD line does not have a long-term future or at least in regular service outside major events and even then I wouldn't hold my breath. Extending the line to Homebush, yes in principle, but costly.

What happened in Newcastle is a result of on/off lobbying by various influential people in Newcastle for 40 years. Yes its a waste of money in my book, but it wasn't a thought bubble from Macquarie Street.
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

It's pretty obvious why they've done it: Extend from St Mary's up to Schofields and then join the end of the NWRL. Likely you'll see the other end branch and head towards the Liverpool end of the metro to make a loop.  Continuing south to Macarthur is an interesting choice, but makes sense if you're going to be putting in new lines. Not too much north-south commuting right now, and those that will be are commuting to the new industrial areas around the airport and the uni.
If the Western Metro is indeed extended to St Mary's and then south to the airport then it would make sense for the NWRL Metro extension to connect to St Mary;s and then trains can run through to the airport if demand was there, which I doubt. So a transfer at St Mary's is likely outcome over running empty trains.

Macarthur to airport line makes no sense for at least 30 years.
RTT_Rules
If in fact the Metro West is extended to WSA (Badgerys Creek), then it won't be via St Marys, as it would only be unnecessarily  triplicating the existing T1 Line.  It's too indirect and would more likely be on a more direct and shorter route via say Smithfield/Wetherill Park, which has previously been proposed, in addition to the separate metro link from St Marys.  The metro link to St Marys, not that I agree with it, is meant to ultimately link up with an extended Metro Northwest at Schofields, although it appears that it won't be a continuous link, which will require interchange.  If that's the case, then that also leaves open the option for the rail links to WSA and the Aerotropolis, including the SWRL, to be extensions of the existing network.

I agree that a Macarthur to WSA rail link, whether metro or heavy rail, and through to the North West would be a long way off.
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

The cut and cover method mentioned for the former Newcastle line may not have been so simple as suggested as the whole route is in a very sandy environment and riddled with old coal mines.
nswtrains
The whole point of the developers' interest in the now closed rail alignment, was that it WASN'T undermined by old coal mines.  That wouldn't preclude cut and cover to put the link underground.
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
The self loading cattle don't worry, they don't even give a crap. They just want to get to work and not deal with the fall out of another driver dispute over whatever who cares and yes if the trains run more frequently because we don't need to worry about driver/guard costs, then so be it. If anything the need to manually operate the train is holding us back, not moving forward.

No the steam era example was not an extreme. I'm sure you have seen the video's of cars pulling into a petrol station in the 50's where 4 guys then descended on your car. One for fuel, one for tyres, one checking oil and one for cleaning the windscreen. Now you often don't even pay the cashier, yet what happened to these guys, we don't have streets full of unemployed guys who's only skill was to put air into tyres, wash a window? As a result your fuel is cheaper. In 10 years time, the existing Petrol stations themselves will be in decline thanks to EV's.

You don't stop automation on a whim, you grab technology as it becomes available and capitalise on it. In the private sector its called being innovative and leads to long-term survival and potential growth of a business and with it jobs.  

If you are familiar with automated lines that exist now, you will see life continues in those cities as it will Sydney.

4 car sets in Sydney are on the way out, there are no new trains being ordered and there is no need for them. Olympic Park DD line does not have a long-term future or at least in regular service outside major events and even then I wouldn't hold my breath. Extending the line to Homebush, yes in principle, but costly.

What happened in Newcastle is a result of on/off lobbying by various influential people in Newcastle for 40 years. Yes its a waste of money in my book, but it wasn't a thought bubble from Macquarie Street.
RTT_Rules
My fuel is cheaper - but many can't afford fuel at all, no we don't have streets full of unemployed guys who's only skill was to put air into tyres or wash a window, but we do have many people stuck struggling to live on the Newstart Allowance - Simply put, there are not enough jobs for the population anymore.
Anyway, no point going back and forth about our opinions on automation - just going to overcrowded the threat with both of us probably not being able to understand each others points.

4 carriage sets are on their way out, but they still have a lot of life yet, it will be a while before the T's retire, and then there is still M's, and even eventually when they go, H's will be doing suburban runs.
We take advantage of this on the Cumberland Line, we even had the common sense to do it on weekday Olympic Park services since 2017, but somehow weekend Olympic Park services are still run by Waratah's - but staff cost too much money!
Connecting Olympic Park to Homebush would have been costly due to the requirement for a flyover or a dive, but what have the cost savings in operation justified it?

I know what happened to the Newcastle CBD line was not a thought bubble from Macquarie Street, I'm just annoyed that they acted on the desire to remove infrastructure, but when  they want infrastructure built (Glendale Station), it's not going to happen.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
My fuel is cheaper - but many can't afford fuel at all, no we don't have streets full of unemployed guys who's only skill was to put air into tyres or wash a window, but we do have many people stuck struggling to live on the Newstart Allowance - Simply put, there are not enough jobs for the population anymore.
Anyway, no point going back and forth about our opinions on automation - just going to overcrowded the threat with both of us probably not being able to understand each others points.

4 carriage sets are on their way out, but they still have a lot of life yet, it will be a while before the T's retire, and then there is still M's, and even eventually when they go, H's will be doing suburban runs.
We take advantage of this on the Cumberland Line, we even had the common sense to do it on weekday Olympic Park services since 2017, but somehow weekend Olympic Park services are still run by Waratah's - but staff cost too much money!
Connecting Olympic Park to Homebush would have been costly due to the requirement for a flyover or a dive, but what have the cost savings in operation justified it?

I know what happened to the Newcastle CBD line was not a thought bubble from Macquarie Street, I'm just annoyed that they acted on the desire to remove infrastructure, but when  they want infrastructure built (Glendale Station), it's not going to happen.
Ethan1395
If you cannot afford fuel, you cannot afford the money to catch a bus/train.

Yes you are taking us on a circular loop with this. If you don't have a car and want to use PT and its not available in your area then move, its as simple as that. Don't live in car centric suburbs if you don't own a car.

Again and for the last time, PT will not solve Newcastle's unemployment issues and why you keep trying to link the two god only knows. If you don't have a job and cannot find one in Newcastle then you need to move, simple as that. Anyone who grew up in a rural or interurban area will know this. At age 18 I was travelling 180km return a day for work from just south of Newcastle.

Olympic Park will have its DD services terminated long before the last of the 4 car sets come up for retirement. No more 8 cars, no more high labour cost operations.

The CAPEX would have been $100M's, OPEX $100k's, Western Metro solves both.

The business case for Glendale was either poorly presented and/or didn't justify the numbers.

Again the biggest issue for Newcastle is lack of a central employment district like a CBD, the tram is trying to save it although I don't support this, let it die its natural death.
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
If you cannot afford fuel, you cannot afford the money to catch a bus/train.

Yes you are taking us on a circular loop with this. If you don't have a car and want to use PT and its not available in your area then move, its as simple as that. Don't live in car centric suburbs if you don't own a car.

Again and for the last time, PT will not solve Newcastle's unemployment issues and why you keep trying to link the two god only knows. If you don't have a job and cannot find one in Newcastle then you need to move, simple as that. Anyone who grew up in a rural or interurban area will know this. At age 18 I was travelling 180km return a day for work from just south of Newcastle.

Olympic Park will have its DD services terminated long before the last of the 4 car sets come up for retirement. No more 8 cars, no more high labour cost operations.

The CAPEX would have been $100M's, OPEX $100k's, Western Metro solves both.

The business case for Glendale was either poorly presented and/or didn't justify the numbers.

Again the biggest issue for Newcastle is lack of a central employment district like a CBD, the tram is trying to save it although I don't support this, let it die its natural death.
RTT_Rules
Whoa mate, I am not referring to Newcastle and even my own situation with my talks against automation here.

I have a car, can afford fuel (fuel actually being the lowest expense of car ownership for that matter), work in Sydney, and plan on moving - so why advocate for Newcastle services if I'm alright? because it might be easy for me as one person to get up and move but try telling that to a family of 4! because people need to have more than one option when choosing a place to live! lack of infrastructure or employment opportunities if acceptable in a rural area but not in a city - and Newcastle is a city, and it's too far from Sydney for most to commute!
The link between unemployment and PT: simple, without usable PT, people who don't come from wealthy backgrounds can't get a job since most employers in Newcastle won't hire people without cars, and the only way to get a car without a job is to come from said wealthy background, car dependent environments are also toxic to small businesses.
Most people can't afford to live in non car-centric areas since the government refuses to build infrastructure outside of Sydney!

Anyway, the actual meaning of my comment comes down to this: automating things makes things cheaper for most but also puts a large portion of the population out of work (647,000 receive the Newstart allowance, even over-estimating that half are either sick or lazy leaves a large number unable to get work), not automating jobs will mean that products are more expensive and that leaders/owners might need to use Aldi brand toilet paper, but it would mean more people employed and less crime and less tax payer money spend on welfare - it sounds backwards to purposely not embrace technology to keep the population employed but do you have a better idea?
Anyway, I doubt that the current Olympic Park services will cease when the western metro comes through, maybe a frequency drop, but I can't see the services ceasing, so they really need to quit with the 8 carriage trains when 4 carriages are available, they do it on weekdays now, but for some reason they insist on running Waratah's to Olympic Park on a late Sunday night!

Quickly back to Newcastle, 'numbers' are an interesting term, where would they get the 'numbers' to not build a station at Glendale? patronage on existing services? that's counter-intuitive considering existing services are unusable when local stations are inaccessible and services bypass local destinations with no station at all.
The lack of a central employment district like a proper CBD is a serious issue (and the tram is not going to save it when the only way to get there is via terrible PT), but surely the NSW Government can provide just a little big more than they do now; I mean seriously: no pedestrian infrastructure to existing local stations, no local stations at local destinations alongside existing lines, poor connection times, services frequencies as low as once every 2 hours on some buses and trains; you'll never justify a metro or 4 minute frequencies or anything close to that in Newcastle (and anyone who would advocate for such would be delusional), but seriously? how can such lack of service be acceptable in a city of half a million?
Anyway, better save Newcastle discussions to other topics?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

RTT I think you had better check the latest fuel prices in Australia before you go and make statements such as "if you can't afford fuel than you cannot afford public transport".

Decent fuel (ie the stuff that doesn't make your car break down on the side of the road) is $1.50 a litre here and even the cheaper stuff is still $1.30 a litre. To fill a small car you still need to spend nearly $50 and if you have a larger car you can see little change from $100. With the new weekly transport caps that could provide unlimited travel for 1-2 weeks of travelling on the sydney trains, bus, ferry and light rail network.

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