Driverless metro service confirmed for north south rail link

 

News article: Driverless metro service confirmed for north south rail link

The North South Rail Link between Western Sydney Aerotropolis and St Marys will be a turn-up-and-go driverless metro service.

  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
RTT I think you had better check the latest fuel prices in Australia before you go and make statements such as "if you can't afford fuel than you cannot afford public transport".

Decent fuel (ie the stuff that doesn't make your car break down on the side of the road) is $1.50 a litre here and even the cheaper stuff is still $1.30 a litre. To fill a small car you still need to spend nearly $50 and if you have a larger car you can see little change from $100. With the new weekly transport caps that could provide unlimited travel for 1-2 weeks of travelling on the sydney trains, bus, ferry and light rail network.
simstrain
I was working on the basis of $1.50/L.

A 15 year old small sedan/hatch (say Suzuki Swiftgets 7L/100km, costing $3000 to $5000), assuming a round trip commute of 33km, that's $3.50/day, I think similar distance on Opal is around $3.50 each way, but obviously without the ongoing costs. Most people still own a car for themselves regardless if they use PT or not for work. perhaps those who'd partner doesn't work or live in high density in the inner city are the exception. So the overhead costs are there whether you use PT or not, just maintenance.

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  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Whoa mate, I am not referring to Newcastle and even my own situation with my talks against automation here.

I have a car, can afford fuel (fuel actually being the lowest expense of car ownership for that matter), work in Sydney, and plan on moving - so why advocate for Newcastle services if I'm alright? because it might be easy for me as one person to get up and move but try telling that to a family of 4! because people need to have more than one option when choosing a place to live! lack of infrastructure or employment opportunities if acceptable in a rural area but not in a city - and Newcastle is a city, and it's too far from Sydney for most to commute!
The link between unemployment and PT: simple, without usable PT, people who don't come from wealthy backgrounds can't get a job since most employers in Newcastle won't hire people without cars, and the only way to get a car without a job is to come from said wealthy background, car dependent environments are also toxic to small businesses.
Most people can't afford to live in non car-centric areas since the government refuses to build infrastructure outside of Sydney!

Anyway, the actual meaning of my comment comes down to this: automating things makes things cheaper for most but also puts a large portion of the population out of work (647,000 receive the Newstart allowance, even over-estimating that half are either sick or lazy leaves a large number unable to get work), not automating jobs will mean that products are more expensive and that leaders/owners might need to use Aldi brand toilet paper, but it would mean more people employed and less crime and less tax payer money spend on welfare - it sounds backwards to purposely not embrace technology to keep the population employed but do you have a better idea?
Anyway, I doubt that the current Olympic Park services will cease when the western metro comes through, maybe a frequency drop, but I can't see the services ceasing, so they really need to quit with the 8 carriage trains when 4 carriages are available, they do it on weekdays now, but for some reason they insist on running Waratah's to Olympic Park on a late Sunday night!

Quickly back to Newcastle, 'numbers' are an interesting term, where would they get the 'numbers' to not build a station at Glendale? patronage on existing services? that's counter-intuitive considering existing services are unusable when local stations are inaccessible and services bypass local destinations with no station at all.
The lack of a central employment district like a proper CBD is a serious issue (and the tram is not going to save it when the only way to get there is via terrible PT), but surely the NSW Government can provide just a little big more than they do now; I mean seriously: no pedestrian infrastructure to existing local stations, no local stations at local destinations alongside existing lines, poor connection times, services frequencies as low as once every 2 hours on some buses and trains; you'll never justify a metro or 4 minute frequencies or anything close to that in Newcastle (and anyone who would advocate for such would be delusional), but seriously? how can such lack of service be acceptable in a city of half a million?
Anyway, better save Newcastle discussions to other topics?
Ethan1395
The govt has access to the ABS data on where people live and work, go to school etc. Hence they can likely estimate to a reasonable margin the number of people for which new transport options are proposed/planned. I have no idea about Glendale but again what was the proposal and data presented, just another good idea  sent to the local MP for them to do all the hard work or was it a researched proposal?

Automation drives down costs, which increases your spending power. For example I work in aluminium, the typical manning per tonne has dropped by half in 25 years. This makes aluminium cheaper to make and cheaper use. Window and door frames for houses, boats, cars, TV's, phones, trains, trams, planes, drink cans, HV cables, solar panels, wind turbines etc etc are all cheaper. Transport vehicles made with more aluminium and less steel use less fuel etc etc.

People complain about bank fees today, how much would the bank fees and interest rates be if the banks had the manning of the 1980's using passbooks? What about the still running the manual mortgages that were fixed, difficult change, pay off early and other ways to reduce interest payments, now due to automation borrow today, pay off tomorrow, no issue.

As I said before, the steam train example was not a joke and we cannot hold back development and progress trying to keep jobs that no longer should exist. It hasn't worked in the past and it won't today.

Again Newcastle's large scale higher unemployment issues are not solved by PT, its solved by creating sustainable jobs which then PT should be aligned to support. Just because you can afford a car, I would not define that as "wealthy".

Once the Western Metro is open, who would use the Olympic park shuttle? If you are city or Paramatta bound the Western Metro is faster and more direct, easier access to the North main as well.

Honestly I think the govt needs to look at redeveloping central Newcastle for apartments which then attracts shops and business and trams for some reason always seem to part of such plans in this day and age. I tend agree the frequency of the trains needs to be improved. I'd also rebuild Hamilton Airport as an island platform station to enable ease of transfer for those headed from Sydney line to Hunter line.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I was working on the basis of $1.50/L.

A 15 year old small sedan/hatch (say Suzuki Swiftgets 7L/100km, costing $3000 to $5000), assuming a round trip commute of 33km, that's $3.50/day, I think similar distance on Opal is around $3.50 each way, but obviously without the ongoing costs. Most people still own a car for themselves regardless if they use PT or not for work. perhaps those who'd partner doesn't work or live in high density in the inner city are the exception. So the overhead costs are there whether you use PT or not, just maintenance.
RTT_Rules

Why are you using a suzuki swift for an example. a mazda 3 or toyota corolla I could understand but the most popular cars in Sydney at the moment are Utes and SUV's and they do much more the 7l/100km's especially when stuck in traffic. You are also not taking in to account car parking and tolls and when you take that in to account your money rises quite a lot higher then $3.50 a day.

I think you need to get your math right. A 33km trip isn't going to cost $3.50 especially in peak hour.

edit. The most popular car 15 years ago was still the commodore.
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
The govt has access to the ABS data on where people live and work, go to school etc. Hence they can likely estimate to a reasonable margin the number of people for which new transport options are proposed/planned. I have no idea about Glendale but again what was the proposal and data presented, just another good idea  sent to the local MP for them to do all the hard work or was it a researched proposal?

Automation drives down costs, which increases your spending power. For example I work in aluminium, the typical manning per tonne has dropped by half in 25 years. This makes aluminium cheaper to make and cheaper use. Window and door frames for houses, boats, cars, TV's, phones, trains, trams, planes, drink cans, HV cables, solar panels, wind turbines etc etc are all cheaper. Transport vehicles made with more aluminium and less steel use less fuel etc etc.

People complain about bank fees today, how much would the bank fees and interest rates be if the banks had the manning of the 1980's using passbooks? What about the still running the manual mortgages that were fixed, difficult change, pay off early and other ways to reduce interest payments, now due to automation borrow today, pay off tomorrow, no issue.

As I said before, the steam train example was not a joke and we cannot hold back development and progress trying to keep jobs that no longer should exist. It hasn't worked in the past and it won't today.

Again Newcastle's large scale higher unemployment issues are not solved by PT, its solved by creating sustainable jobs which then PT should be aligned to support. Just because you can afford a car, I would not define that as "wealthy".

Once the Western Metro is open, who would use the Olympic park shuttle? If you are city or Paramatta bound the Western Metro is faster and more direct, easier access to the North main as well.

Honestly I think the govt needs to look at redeveloping central Newcastle for apartments which then attracts shops and business and trams for some reason always seem to part of such plans in this day and age. I tend agree the frequency of the trains needs to be improved. I'd also rebuild Hamilton Airport as an island platform station to enable ease of transfer for those headed from Sydney line to Hunter line.
RTT_Rules
Holding back automation development to keep jobs sounds counter-intuitive, but with 647,000 people receiving the Newstart Allowance, and when there are roughly 15 job seekers for every available job. Is there are better solution? I hope there is but I can't think of it.

Newcastle's unemployment problems won't be solved entirely PT, but it would help, and the area needs PT anyway. Some small businesses for example rely on foot traffic to get customers, and in a city, food traffic usually only comes from PT users, and then there is the wealth disadvantage issue:
Are you 'wealthy' just becasue you can afford a car? no
Are you a 'wealthy' family when you are already are paying for two cars (for mother and father), mortgage/rent, the ever rising energy bills, school feels, internet/phone bills, the list goes on, and then on top of all that, you need to pay for insurance, registration, servicing, maintenance, for two 17 year old children BEFORE they are able to get a job and bring in an income for themselves? I would say yes.

Admittedly few would use the Olympic Park shuttle once the Western Metro comes through (maybe in peak hour if they know they can get a seat changing at Lidcombe with the Western Metro running standing room only), but I imagine obligations will keep the service running, but most likely only 1/2 per hour instead of the 6 per hour currently. I just really hope they have the sense to cut the weekend services to 4 carriages.

The Newcastle CBD is pretty much already being redeveloped into primarily apartments, but also a few office buildings, whether they give birth to shops and businesses is something we will have to wait and see.
Service frequencies need improving as you agree, but also equally important (or perhaps more so) is actually making services usable; local destinations such as the shopping centres that employ a number of people sit next to the railway line with no stations, existing stations have had housing developments go up next to them but have no proper pedestrian access, and connections with the Hunter Line are poor - Warabrook is one of the busiest local station in the Newcastle area, but people travelling from the south can't access it. The island platform idea you mentioned would be very beneficial.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Holding back automation development to keep jobs sounds counter-intuitive, but with 647,000 people receiving the Newstart Allowance, and when there are roughly 15 job seekers for every available job. Is there are better solution? I hope there is but I can't think of it.

Newcastle's unemployment problems won't be solved entirely PT, but it would help, and the area needs PT anyway. Some small businesses for example rely on foot traffic to get customers, and in a city, food traffic usually only comes from PT users, and then there is the wealth disadvantage issue:
Are you 'wealthy' just becasue you can afford a car? no
Are you a 'wealthy' family when you are already are paying for two cars (for mother and father), mortgage/rent, the ever rising energy bills, school feels, internet/phone bills, the list goes on, and then on top of all that, you need to pay for insurance, registration, servicing, maintenance, for two 17 year old children BEFORE they are able to get a job and bring in an income for themselves? I would say yes.

Admittedly few would use the Olympic Park shuttle once the Western Metro comes through (maybe in peak hour if they know they can get a seat changing at Lidcombe with the Western Metro running standing room only), but I imagine obligations will keep the service running, but most likely only 1/2 per hour instead of the 6 per hour currently. I just really hope they have the sense to cut the weekend services to 4 carriages.

The Newcastle CBD is pretty much already being redeveloped into primarily apartments, but also a few office buildings, whether they give birth to shops and businesses is something we will have to wait and see.
Service frequencies need improving as you agree, but also equally important (or perhaps more so) is actually making services usable; local destinations such as the shopping centres that employ a number of people sit next to the railway line with no stations, existing stations have had housing developments go up next to them but have no proper pedestrian access, and connections with the Hunter Line are poor - Warabrook is one of the busiest local station in the Newcastle area, but people travelling from the south can't access it. The island platform idea you mentioned would be very beneficial.
Ethan1395
Sorry, trying to live in the past is not the way of the future and your approach to solving employment reeks of the a 3rd world country.

Assume there is 2000 train drivers and guards in Sydney Trains. Average annual employment costs $200kpa x 2000 = $400mpa, imagine what the govt could do with $400M and how many jobs would be sustained in doing so.

Foot traffic
If I want to buy a carton of milk or a T-shirt or a TV, I will buy it were convenient. PT will not increase the sales, just change where I actually buy it.

I would challenge your so called definition of "wealthy" by Australian standards as what you are saying basically means anyone with a job is wealthy which I'm sure many would be offended by.

No one will get off at Western Metro Olympic Park to catch a train for 5min plus waiting and walking time to catch a train with more stops to the city and likely standing only from Lidcombe in peak but even if there is a seat, the time taken to change trains would exceed the travel time on the Metro to the city.

I read somewhere, maybe here maybe Rail Digest about the poor pedestrian access to the south coast stations. I tried to find the old 2016 Sydney Trains Compendium to get the station ridership numbers on WWW, but I think I downloaded it previously however I cannot seem to find it and so far I haven't been able to work out the OPAL data access yet to see what the numbers are.

Perhaps whats needs to be done is do a detailed desk top study to look at each station and identify the strengths and weaknesses to its success or failure in getting users and how to improve and other new station options. Then present this to the local members providing a list fo best bang for your buck. Its not hard if you know the area and realistic.

There was talk years ago of closing the entire Newcastle branch and running the sparks to Warabrook, I'm glad it didn't get that far, but the island platform would help. OR move Broadmedow to the junction.

30min to all Fassifern and all to Telarah on a reasonable close to clock face timetable isn't too much to ask.

Suburban Shopping centres are not attractive for PT users. People want to take a car to take home the shopping.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Holding back automation development to keep jobs sounds counter-intuitive, but with 647,000 people receiving the Newstart Allowance, and when there are roughly 15 job seekers for every available job. Is there are better solution? I hope there is but I can't think of it.

Newcastle's unemployment problems won't be solved entirely PT, but it would help, and the area needs PT anyway. Some small businesses for example rely on foot traffic to get customers, and in a city, food traffic usually only comes from PT users, and then there is the wealth disadvantage issue:
Are you 'wealthy' just becasue you can afford a car? no
Are you a 'wealthy' family when you are already are paying for two cars (for mother and father), mortgage/rent, the ever rising energy bills, school feels, internet/phone bills, the list goes on, and then on top of all that, you need to pay for insurance, registration, servicing, maintenance, for two 17 year old children BEFORE they are able to get a job and bring in an income for themselves? I would say yes.

Admittedly few would use the Olympic Park shuttle once the Western Metro comes through (maybe in peak hour if they know they can get a seat changing at Lidcombe with the Western Metro running standing room only), but I imagine obligations will keep the service running, but most likely only 1/2 per hour instead of the 6 per hour currently. I just really hope they have the sense to cut the weekend services to 4 carriages.

The Newcastle CBD is pretty much already being redeveloped into primarily apartments, but also a few office buildings, whether they give birth to shops and businesses is something we will have to wait and see.
Service frequencies need improving as you agree, but also equally important (or perhaps more so) is actually making services usable; local destinations such as the shopping centres that employ a number of people sit next to the railway line with no stations, existing stations have had housing developments go up next to them but have no proper pedestrian access, and connections with the Hunter Line are poor - Warabrook is one of the busiest local station in the Newcastle area, but people travelling from the south can't access it. The island platform idea you mentioned would be very beneficial.
Ethan1395
Sorry, trying to live in the past is not the way of the future and your approach to solving employment reeks of the a 3rd world country.

Assume there is 2000 train drivers and guards in Sydney Trains. Average annual employment costs $200kpa x 2000 = $400mpa, imagine what the govt could do with $400M and how many jobs would be sustained in doing so.

Foot traffic
If I want to buy a carton of milk or a T-shirt or a TV, I will buy it were convenient. PT will not increase the sales, just change where I actually buy it.

I would challenge your so called definition of "wealthy" by Australian standards as what you are saying basically means anyone with a job is wealthy which I'm sure many would be offended by.

No one will get off at Western Metro Olympic Park to catch a train for 5min plus waiting and walking time to catch a train with more stops to the city and likely standing only from Lidcombe in peak but even if there is a seat, the time taken to change trains would exceed the travel time on the Metro to the city.

I read somewhere, maybe here maybe Rail Digest about the poor pedestrian access to the south coast stations. I tried to find the old 2016 Sydney Trains Compendium to get the station ridership numbers on WWW, but I think I downloaded it previously however I cannot seem to find it and so far I haven't been able to work out the OPAL data access yet to see what the numbers are.

Perhaps whats needs to be done is do a detailed desk top study to look at each station and identify the strengths and weaknesses to its success or failure in getting users and how to improve and other new station options. Then present this to the local members providing a list fo best bang for your buck. Its not hard if you know the area and realistic.

There was talk years ago of closing the entire Newcastle branch and running the sparks to Warabrook, I'm glad it didn't get that far, but the island platform would help. OR move Broadmedow to the junction.

30min to all Fassifern and all to Telarah on a reasonable close to clock face timetable isn't too much to ask.  For 30min to Fassifern two sets would be required to do the local run to supplement the existing 60min all stopper and probably delete the Cardiff stop for the express.

Suburban Shopping centres are not attractive for PT users. People want to take a car to take home the shopping.
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
Sorry, trying to live in the past is not the way of the future and your approach to solving employment reeks of the a 3rd world country.

Assume there is 2000 train drivers and guards in Sydney Trains. Average annual employment costs $200kpa x 2000 = $400mpa, imagine what the govt could do with $400M and how many jobs would be sustained in doing so.

Foot traffic
If I want to buy a carton of milk or a T-shirt or a TV, I will buy it were convenient. PT will not increase the sales, just change where I actually buy it.

I would challenge your so called definition of "wealthy" by Australian standards as what you are saying basically means anyone with a job is wealthy which I'm sure many would be offended by.

No one will get off at Western Metro Olympic Park to catch a train for 5min plus waiting and walking time to catch a train with more stops to the city and likely standing only from Lidcombe in peak but even if there is a seat, the time taken to change trains would exceed the travel time on the Metro to the city.

I read somewhere, maybe here maybe Rail Digest about the poor pedestrian access to the south coast stations. I tried to find the old 2016 Sydney Trains Compendium to get the station ridership numbers on WWW, but I think I downloaded it previously however I cannot seem to find it and so far I haven't been able to work out the OPAL data access yet to see what the numbers are.

Perhaps whats needs to be done is do a detailed desk top study to look at each station and identify the strengths and weaknesses to its success or failure in getting users and how to improve and other new station options. Then present this to the local members providing a list fo best bang for your buck. Its not hard if you know the area and realistic.

There was talk years ago of closing the entire Newcastle branch and running the sparks to Warabrook, I'm glad it didn't get that far, but the island platform would help. OR move Broadmedow to the junction.

30min to all Fassifern and all to Telarah on a reasonable close to clock face timetable isn't too much to ask.  For 30min to Fassifern two sets would be required to do the local run to supplement the existing 60min all stopper and probably delete the Cardiff stop for the express.

Suburban Shopping centres are not attractive for PT users. People want to take a car to take home the shopping.
RTT_Rules
The problem is not just drivers and gaurds loosing their jobs, it's the fact that there is already not enough jobs for the population, there are 647,000 people receiving the Newstart Allowance, and there are roughly 15 job seekers for every available job. There is already a silent crisis and imagine throwing a few train gaurds and drivers into the mix (they can't all move on to other positions). We shouldn't be automating or outsourcing until we can think of a solution to this. Do you have any suggestions.

As for foot traffic and small businesses, what I have observed in Sydney is that even in primarily residential suburbs, a number of cafes, take away stores, bakery's etc (not so much where you would buy a T-Shirt or carton of milk) pop up around the local railway station or bus stop. With no one using PT in Newcastle (because it's unusable), small local businesses are much fewer.

I didn't even imply that someone is wealthy just because they have a job! I was saying that if family is already paying for rent/mortgage, two cars for mum and data, water and energy bills, phone/internet, home maintenance, and groceries, and then they can afford to pay all of the associated costs of two more cars for the children, BEFORE they are even able to get a job, they are relatively wealthy - not every family can afford this, leading to the issue of needing to come from a rich family to have a better chance of getting a job in Newcastle.
Obviously PT is not a charity and can't just exist to help disadvantaged people (although this is a benefit), but in a city of almost half a million, it should be reasonable to expect to be able to take some form of PT to work, but the PT in Newcastle is almost completely unusable, did you here about the latest bus cuts? Newcastle has all the other features you would expect in a city (international retailers, 30,000 student university, 23,000 seat stadium, airport with jet services, etc), just no usable PT and no jobs.

Few would use the Olympic Park service after the Metro West comes, but as I was saying, obligations would keep an infrequent service running as I imagine the procedure for shutting down services outside of major events would be a complicated one, some might take advantage of this service (not enough to justify it's operation), and anyone travelling from what's left of the Bankstown Line. Once again, you wouldn't be able to justify it's operation, but the procedure of shutting down services might be complicated.
Even if the services ceases, there is no reason to be running 8 carriage sets now.

A user named djf01 talked about poor pedestrian access to the south coast stations, if you would go the Wikipedia article for a station, it lists the daily patronage in 2013. South Coast local stations have patronage compared to the Carlingford Line and Newcastle local stations have bugger-all patronage.
Obviously and unfortunately, it doesn't list what patronage is local and what is Sydney-bound.

There definitely needs to be a study to look at each station and identify the strengths and weaknesses to its success or failure in getting users and how to improve and other new station options. But to simply dismiss the need for stations at suburban shopping centres by saying people want to take a car to take home the shopping, as shopping centres also employ many people.
I would still push for 20 minute frequency for Newcastle local services to have the best chance for attracting passengers, and make sure a local suburban service terminates at Fassifern just before the Sydney-bound express come through for better connections. They should use the old Toronto platform to terminate locals to keep the main line clear.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
The problem is not just drivers and gaurds loosing their jobs, it's the fact that there is already not enough jobs for the population, there are 647,000 people receiving the Newstart Allowance, and there are roughly 15 job seekers for every available job. There is already a silent crisis and imagine throwing a few train gaurds and drivers into the mix (they can't all move on to other positions). We shouldn't be automating or outsourcing until we can think of a solution to this. Do you have any suggestions.

As for foot traffic and small businesses, what I have observed in Sydney is that even in primarily residential suburbs, a number of cafes, take away stores, bakery's etc (not so much where you would buy a T-Shirt or carton of milk) pop up around the local railway station or bus stop. With no one using PT in Newcastle (because it's unusable), small local businesses are much fewer.

I didn't even imply that someone is wealthy just because they have a job! I was saying that if family is already paying for rent/mortgage, two cars for mum and data, water and energy bills, phone/internet, home maintenance, and groceries, and then they can afford to pay all of the associated costs of two more cars for the children, BEFORE they are even able to get a job, they are relatively wealthy - not every family can afford this, leading to the issue of needing to come from a rich family to have a better chance of getting a job in Newcastle.
Obviously PT is not a charity and can't just exist to help disadvantaged people (although this is a benefit), but in a city of almost half a million, it should be reasonable to expect to be able to take some form of PT to work, but the PT in Newcastle is almost completely unusable, did you here about the latest bus cuts? Newcastle has all the other features you would expect in a city (international retailers, 30,000 student university, 23,000 seat stadium, airport with jet services, etc), just no usable PT and no jobs.

Few would use the Olympic Park service after the Metro West comes, but as I was saying, obligations would keep an infrequent service running as I imagine the procedure for shutting down services outside of major events would be a complicated one, some might take advantage of this service (not enough to justify it's operation), and anyone travelling from what's left of the Bankstown Line. Once again, you wouldn't be able to justify it's operation, but the procedure of shutting down services might be complicated.
Even if the services ceases, there is no reason to be running 8 carriage sets now.

A user named djf01 talked about poor pedestrian access to the south coast stations, if you would go the Wikipedia article for a station, it lists the daily patronage in 2013. South Coast local stations have patronage compared to the Carlingford Line and Newcastle local stations have bugger-all patronage.
Obviously and unfortunately, it doesn't list what patronage is local and what is Sydney-bound.

There definitely needs to be a study to look at each station and identify the strengths and weaknesses to its success or failure in getting users and how to improve and other new station options. But to simply dismiss the need for stations at suburban shopping centres by saying people want to take a car to take home the shopping, as shopping centres also employ many people.
I would still push for 20 minute frequency for Newcastle local services to have the best chance for attracting passengers, and make sure a local suburban service terminates at Fassifern just before the Sydney-bound express come through for better connections. They should use the old Toronto platform to terminate locals to keep the main line clear.
Ethan1395
Burdening the cost of potentially out dated jobs on the taxpayer is not a solution to unemployment and of those 647,000 on Newstart, few live in Sydney so keeping or not keeping those jobs will make no difference to those on Newstart.

As I said before if the govt could take the money used for example by the current pool of divers and guards and use it to build new lines its a win win for all including unemployment as the govt revenue is being used for effectively. $400Mpa will build 5-10km of new UG Metro lines per year employing more people. Or simply cut taxes by $400M pa and leave this in the pockets of people to spend, also driving more jobs.

PT itself is stealing jobs from the car industry, should we not close down PT to generate more jobs in the car transport sector?

To use your analogy, imagine if the taxpayer was still paying for manual track labour, steam era technology, 16 year olds riding bikes to tell drivers in their home their next train, manual signally. Billions lost every year to sustain the steam age. Having worked in India I've seen whats it like to have people sitting their doing brain dead jobs that just drags down progress with bureaucracy and one of the reasons they are not a developed nation.

All your theory is doing is literally dragging down Australia's competitiveness with our foreign counter parts and destroying more jobs than you are trying to save, it hasn't  worked in the past and won't work now.

There is no obligation to the govt to keep Olympic Park Line in operation and a 30min service would quickly see the end.

Again you are mixing PT with jobs.  PT does not solve an employment problem, its as simple as that.

Newcastle has alot of stuff, but its so spread out its impossible to service with PR. So stupid planning of the past. Look at BRisbane, took them 20 years to realise their main football stadium QE2 was built in a dumb location and finally closed and revamped the old Lang Park in the city next to a railway station and surprise, people now use the train to go there.

Shops open next to busy railway stations because there is sufficient passing trade to sustain a business THERE. The vast majority of these shops trade would still exist if the railway wasn't there, they would simply be in another location. My family uses 7L of milk a week, I need to buy it regardless of my transport option. You will not increase overall employment this way.
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
Burdening the cost of potentially out dated jobs on the taxpayer is not a solution to unemployment and of those 647,000 on Newstart, few live in Sydney so keeping or not keeping those jobs will make no difference to those on Newstart.

As I said before if the govt could take the money used for example by the current pool of divers and guards and use it to build new lines its a win win for all including unemployment as the govt revenue is being used for effectively. $400Mpa will build 5-10km of new UG Metro lines per year employing more people. Or simply cut taxes by $400M pa and leave this in the pockets of people to spend, also driving more jobs.

PT itself is stealing jobs from the car industry, should we not close down PT to generate more jobs in the car transport sector?

To use your analogy, imagine if the taxpayer was still paying for manual track labour, steam era technology, 16 year olds riding bikes to tell drivers in their home their next train, manual signally. Billions lost every year to sustain the steam age. Having worked in India I've seen whats it like to have people sitting their doing brain dead jobs that just drags down progress with bureaucracy and one of the reasons they are not a developed nation.

All your theory is doing is literally dragging down Australia's competitiveness with our foreign counter parts and destroying more jobs than you are trying to save, it hasn't  worked in the past and won't work now.

There is no obligation to the govt to keep Olympic Park Line in operation and a 30min service would quickly see the end.

Again you are mixing PT with jobs.  PT does not solve an employment problem, its as simple as that.

Newcastle has alot of stuff, but its so spread out its impossible to service with PR. So stupid planning of the past. Look at BRisbane, took them 20 years to realise their main football stadium QE2 was built in a dumb location and finally closed and revamped the old Lang Park in the city next to a railway station and surprise, people now use the train to go there.

Shops open next to busy railway stations because there is sufficient passing trade to sustain a business THERE. The vast majority of these shops trade would still exist if the railway wasn't there, they would simply be in another location. My family uses 7L of milk a week, I need to buy it regardless of my transport option. You will not increase overall employment this way.
RTT_Rules
Well from what you are telling me, not embracing the automation technology will create new problems, but still, what is the solution to there being are 647,000 people receiving the Newstart Allowance, and there are roughly 15 job seekers for every available job?

Stuff is spread out in Newcastle, but it's not impossible to serve by PT as it may seem. The main university campus gets good rail patronage but poor connection times shy away passengers travelling from the south, the main TAFE campus is next to the railway line but there is no station, same goes for the specialized Marter Hospital, the primary John Hunter Hospital would be a short bus form the rail line where the main arterial road crosses over but there is no station, two major retail (and employment) centres at Kotara and Glendale are next to the rail line with no stations, the stadium at Broameadow actually is near the station but there is poor connection times for those travelling from the north and inaccessible stations for those travelling from the south, you probably could never justify building a station solely to serve an industrial area but in the case of the Glendale retail centre and the main TAFE campus there are industrial areas nearby so local stations would also serve said areas as a bonus.
These issues wouldn't be too difficult to fix with the right stations in the right places with the right pedestrian infrastructure and a fix bus network.
Should be move the Newcastle discussion to another topic?

Of course shops open where there is sufficient passing trade, and in the case of a PT centric area, it's foot traffic, in a cer-centric area, it's a suburban shopping centre, where the rents are far too high to support small businesses. No one solution will increase employment, but it's a matter of implementing several solutions.

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