DISCUSSION: Is the NSW Government too 'Sydney-Centric' with public transport?

 
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
Belmont needs more bus services like many other places up that way need.
simstrain
Buses should only really be used when other modes of PT can't be justified, perhaps Swansea is one of these areas, but not Belmont and Charlestown.

Remember, buses don't really attract passengers to use PT compared to rail and ferry services; they are slower than driving, usually indirect, infrequent, rarely run (it at all) early mornings and late night and only in one direction if they do, and contribute to higher fares when used in-conjunction with attractive modes of PT - if all of these issues can be overcome, then it be best practical to focus on a predominately bus-based PT system.

No reason why local services need to be as unusable as they are on the existing lines though, and all I'm really advocating for at the moment.

Ironically areas around Belmont have recently just had their bus services reduce, main road services are unaffected (for now), but services that wind through the hilly residential areas have been cut to 2 hourly frequencies to support Keolis Downer's premium on-demand services - how can the government allow this?

The Belmont line after the first two km basically avoids the population centres with the exception of Redhead, crossing Dudley Road area and Belmont itself. The last passenger train ran in 1971, a clear sign it wasn't competitive to alternatives. Had it survived today, yes it would be a "quaint" Sunday train trip to Belmont for "wet" lunch alongside the lake. It would have been nice to see the line retained as a HR line, but alas it didn't.

Not impossible to cross the sandy Swansea peninsula, but why would you, the population doesn't support rail PT plus you will pi$$ off the half local population building the line as there is almost no free space.
RTT_Rules
It's a shame the alignment never went via Charlestown, then it might have stood a chance of surviving, if somehow a line from Belmont via Charlestown branching off around Kotara could be built (could be LR or HR), it would be much more beneficial,
City Rd between Charlestown and the CBD already experiences congestion, which will only get worse as the population grows and (following current trends) PT declines.

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  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Buses should only really be used when other modes of PT can't be justified, perhaps Swansea is one of these areas, but not Belmont and Charlestown.

Remember, buses don't really attract passengers to use PT compared to rail and ferry services; they are slower than driving, usually indirect, infrequent, rarely run (it at all) early mornings and late night and only in one direction if they do, and contribute to higher fares when used in-conjunction with attractive modes of PT - if all of these issues can be overcome, then it be best practical to focus on a predominately bus-based PT system.

No reason why local services need to be as unusable as they are on the existing lines though, and all I'm really advocating for at the moment.

Ironically areas around Belmont have recently just had their bus services reduce, main road services are unaffected (for now), but services that wind through the hilly residential areas have been cut to 2 hourly frequencies to support Keolis Downer's premium on-demand services - how can the government allow this?

It's a shame the alignment never went via Charlestown, then it might have stood a chance of surviving, if somehow a line from Belmont via Charlestown branching off around Kotara could be built (could be LR or HR), it would be much more beneficial,
City Rd between Charlestown and the CBD already experiences congestion, which will only get worse as the population grows and (following current trends) PT declines.
Ethan1395
Swansea has no where near the population to justify anything using steel wheels on rail.

Belmont line, yes there are a number of lines and services that may still be open/operating, if only they ran via a different alignment.

Buses timetable are dictated by the same people who dictate train timetables. Yes buses tend to get around 25 - 33% less patronage than fixed rail, even if it takes marginally longer. Tourists naturally flock to rail as its easier to find, see where its going and usually the signage and timetables are more straightforward to read. Even knowing which side of the street to stand on can be hard when trying to catch a bus if on a back street. But none of this makes up for the fact if you cannot fill a bus, you won't fill a train.  

The route from Charlestown to city is 11km and almost parallels the railway by roughly 1.5km most of the way. In Sydney being within 2km of the railway station is considered within the catchment. The Sydney 2012 and 2016 railway compendium shows this nicely in a graph. However the ideal is 0.5km. It would cost $1-1.2B to build a tram on this corridor and the numbers unlikely stack up due to the lack of population density and the lack of a centralised employment zones in Newcastle. If you don't own a car along this corridor it would be fairly easy to ride and/or walk to the railway station if not catch a bus. I used to walk 1km just to catch the bloody bus 9km to the station at Gosford, both for school and later work.

The old Belmont line runs to Adamstown, which ironically is so unpopular the local railway station usage isn't alot different to that of Cockle Creek. If people are headed to the city, then the train/tram using this corridor would be unpopular.

Checking housing prices around Newcastle, I found suburbs with railway stations are generally cheaper than away from the railway station. In Sydney it tends to be the opposite with easy (walking) access to a railway station popular.

Going forward I think the Newcastle PT improvement mid term future is
- Improve station access
- Potentially add 1-2 new stations, Glendale and between Waratah and Warabrook
- Establish a 30min all stations rail service north of Fassifern which would including using Platform 3 as a terminating road.
- Expand the Tram, potentially to the hospital, which for some reason seems the location of choice for terminating trams.
- Improve bus connectivity.


Re: Toronto, final thoughts on this.
A potential extension of the Fassifern trains to Toronto is unlikely to be practical past the Cary Street to prevent a costly over pass. The revised terminus would be 400-500m before the old Toronto station so ok and on a main road, so I think better all round. I also think the area is a suitable terminus and carpark location.

The only issue is dealing with Facett Street and Lake Street LX. How to resolve but keeping it practical and cost effective?

No intermediate stations.

If you could make it all work, then yes it could be a simple stub line like Tonsley in SA supporting a 30min local service to Newcastle. With a 30min local service, I'd have the through Central Coast Newcastle trains operating semi express all the time, Fassifern, Cardiff, Broadmeadows all to Newcastle

However I think this is just spending money to put a railway somewhere because there used to be one, buses are probably better but as I like trains more than buses if the govt wants to spend the money, I say do it.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Buses should only really be used when other modes of PT can't be justified, perhaps Swansea is one of these areas, but not Belmont and Charlestown.

Remember, buses don't really attract passengers to use PT compared to rail and ferry services; they are slower than driving, usually indirect, infrequent, rarely run (it at all) early mornings and late night and only in one direction if they do, and contribute to higher fares when used in-conjunction with attractive modes of PT - if all of these issues can be overcome, then it be best practical to focus on a predominately bus-based PT system.

No reason why local services need to be as unusable as they are on the existing lines though, and all I'm really advocating for at the moment.

Ironically areas around Belmont have recently just had their bus services reduce, main road services are unaffected (for now), but services that wind through the hilly residential areas have been cut to 2 hourly frequencies to support Keolis Downer's premium on-demand services - how can the government allow this?

It's a shame the alignment never went via Charlestown, then it might have stood a chance of surviving, if somehow a line from Belmont via Charlestown branching off around Kotara could be built (could be LR or HR), it would be much more beneficial,
City Rd between Charlestown and the CBD already experiences congestion, which will only get worse as the population grows and (following current trends) PT declines.
Swansea has no where near the population to justify anything using steel wheels on rail.

Belmont line, yes there are a number of lines and services that may still be open/operating, if only they ran via a different alignment.

Buses timetable are dictated by the same people who dictate train timetables. Yes buses tend to get around 25 - 33% less patronage than fixed rail, even if it takes marginally longer. Tourists naturally flock to rail as its easier to find, see where its going and usually the signage and timetables are more straightforward to read. Even knowing which side of the street to stand on can be hard when trying to catch a bus if on a back street. But none of this makes up for the fact if you cannot fill a bus, you won't fill a train.  

The route from Charlestown to city is 11km and almost parallels the railway by roughly 1.5km most of the way. In Sydney being within 2km of the railway station is considered within the catchment. The Sydney 2012 and 2016 railway compendium shows this nicely in a graph. However the ideal is 0.5km. It would cost $1-1.2B to build a tram on this corridor and the numbers unlikely stack up due to the lack of population density and the lack of a centralised employment zones in Newcastle. If you don't own a car along this corridor it would be fairly easy to ride and/or walk to the railway station if not catch a bus. I used to walk 1km just to catch the bloody bus 9km to the station at Gosford, both for school and later work.

The old Belmont line runs to Adamstown, which ironically is so unpopular the local railway station usage isn't alot different to that of Cockle Creek. If people are headed to the city, then the train/tram using this corridor would be unpopular.

Checking housing prices around Newcastle, I found suburbs with railway stations are generally cheaper than away from the railway station. In Sydney it tends to be the opposite with easy (walking) access to a railway station popular.

Going forward I think the Newcastle PT improvement mid term future is
- Improve station access
- Potentially add 1-2 new stations, Glendale and between Waratah and Warabrook
- Establish a 30min all stations rail service north of Fassifern which would including using Platform 3 as a terminating road.
- Expand the Tram, potentially to the hospital, which for some reason seems the location of choice for terminating trams.
- Improve bus connectivity.


Re: Toronto, final thoughts on this.
A potential extension of the Fassifern trains to Toronto is unlikely to be practical past the Cary Street to prevent a costly over pass. The revised terminus would be 400-500m before the old Toronto station so ok and on a main road, so I think better all round. I also think the area is a suitable terminus and carpark location.

The only issue is dealing with Facett Street and Lake Street LX. How to resolve but keeping it practical and cost effective?

No intermediate stations.

If you could make it all work, then yes it could be a simple stub line like Tonsley in SA supporting a 30min local service to Newcastle. With a 30min local service, I'd have the through Central Coast Newcastle trains operating semi express all the time, Fassifern, Cardiff, Broadmeadows all to Newcastle

However I think this is just spending money to put a railway somewhere because there used to be one, buses are probably better but as I like trains more than buses if the govt wants to spend the money, I say do it.
RTT_Rules

RTT,  This particular topic frustrates me, as I have posted previously and attempted three previous replies on this topic over the last few days only to lose all of what I have said.  I admire Ethans enthusiasm for rail services and I am very much of the same mind set but, they all have to be justifiable in regards to getting the services being sort for. Most of which are really not viable at least for some time into the future, but by then the area of PT will have changed dramatically fairly constantly.  As we now live in the valley neighbouring Morpeth, we do a reasonable amount of travel by train from Victoria St with my wife using it at least twice a week me, a bit less but we often go together or separately

The services from Telerah, to Wickham here through the week are very good but only warrant the 2 car DMU's. Today for the first time in 2 years living up here I saw a person waiting for a train at High St, it along with East Maitland, Tarro, Hexham, and Sandgate only have an hourly service in the off peak, and realistically thats more really than they need owing to the few who get on or off there.  The area is still growing and we live in a newish estate that had the first house begin construction just on 2 years ago, only a few blocks left that are empty still.

If one really looked at the geographic terrain and the like using an arc from say Belmont our more a straight line across to Rutherford, from a high up Google earth, or Near Map which is possibly more up to date than google, there can be seen huge pockets of green open spaces, many of the denser suburbs are also rather hilly and few new estates have level blocks of land even out our way, and the suburbs are also generally pock marked inside that line, however if you arced it with Belmont on the lower end and out taking in the Glendale, Cameron Park and then to Sandgate, you have the vast area of Newcastle covered within that arc.  Outside of there is small newer developments and one suburb could be better placed for train travel if there was an easy way to get to Metford station, that suburb is Chisholm, but there's no direct way to get to the station owing to the acreage homes between Raymond Terrace road, and the station. Going to Thornton is not that much further but there is really a serious shortage of car parking there, and its a growing area.

Ethan has desires for a station to service the Mater Hospital near Maud st, Seriously one has to consider firstly how many people would really use it, as the hospital is very much a specialised hospital that deals with Cancer treatment and patients there, what I have noticed with it is that there is nowhere near the numbers that would be visitors or in/outpatients that would actually use that station, there's certainly no real suburbia on the northern side of the line which at Maud st is a narrow ROW, as the coal road diverts under the Main lines there, and there's a steep embankment on the up track side. Thing is, the distance to walk from the new station is not really that much further than it would be from the current Waratah station,  which is now getting lifts owing to the numbers of passengers that use it.

The station for the Tafe.  Where would that station be built, it would have to be within the Triangle area between Hamilton, BMD and the area toward Clyde st Level Crossing which is a busy road, but there is not the room between the northern end of the triangle for a station between the trailing points and the crossing, on one side of the line is industry and the other side is the old gas works that has contamination all over it and no one is allowed on that land.  The only spot then really is at around Coal st, that has a bit of tail end to the rail corridor and its less than a Kilometre form Hamilton.  Students attending the Tafe college have a very frequent bus service that runs along the old Pacific Highway from Beaumont St at Hamilton its a 5 minute walk and the bus stops right at the front of the Tafe..

LR to Charlestown or Belmont, which direction?  There was talk of an extension to the NCLE LR once it was finished, going by the numbers that use the tram and the low density population the NCLE cbd, what is going to entice commuters onto it?  The current set up is that the trams run on solar powered pick ups at each stop, where the panto's are raised while the tram stops there to recharge the generators or whatever power source is used, If it went via say Merewether it may provide some improved services especially for the surfies, the most direct route though would be again the old Pacific Highway or what's now called City road, but again it will go through areas that have a lot of green space on each side of the road which in itself is quite narrow.

Lets talk of Glendale and the other relocations Ethan has suggested.  Cardiff he believes needs to be moved up the grade before Tickhole tunnel to serve Cardiff Heights. That is moving a station at big costs and one that does have a fair number of passengers using the trains, where its currently located, and also close to shops, albeit smaller but also quite a few professional services near the station and within a few hundred metres.  Cardiff heights has no real suburb that close to the line either, again the closer to Tickhole the sparser the houses and higher they are from the line.

Cockle Creek vses new station at Glendale.  Where is it going to go?  Again we come with the problem of commuter car parking, simply put there is no real area there, there is a dead end st that backs onto the shopping centre, but there is no room for a car park, over the other/eastern side of the line is all industrial and I doubt there is the room for a commuter park there either. How much to buy up the houses in that street, or you could move it further south to where there is a childrens park with playground equipment.

While Cockle Creek has its problems owing to it being short and the access to the car park is not brilliant, there is enough room for the station to be expanded towards the bridge over the inlet there. Likewise the vacant land between the main road and the inlet could readily be expanded and made into a good sized car park, Those heading towards Glendale area, can turn left from the car park when leaving but they cannot turn right nor turn into the car park from the Glendale end.  However there is a very big round about just down the road a bit where an entry and exit could be put in, that exit provides direct access to Warners Bay area as well as up past the big Bunnings which is being developed and where Ethan has pointed out there is residential estates coming, but there is still a lot of decontamination work to be done in that area as its the old Sulphide pasminco zinc site.


Looking at Toronto, seriously if it was not viable for the service to be retained when school children needed the line but today there are more schools in that area, and one private one 5 minutes on the connecting buses for stopping trains at Fassi, how could it be viable now?

While I would love to see it open again, there has to be something that can make the huge investment for it to be viable,
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Thanks a6et, some interesting comments. and who knew there was a Morpeth in the UK.

Just quickly
Regarding the TAFE station option.
It could fit between Clyde Street and Sytx creek.
The point work east of the Clyde street LX can be easily moved to the west side as they are a legacy of a more complicated track layout.
The remaining cross over on the main can stay if it cannot be easily moved/removed. I assume its just used by the locos.
Clyde Street is a busy street which is perfect for access to a railway station.
No need for commuter carpark.
Station built on the railway ROW so no issue for the gas works.
It would then be spaced nicely around 1 - 1.2km from the stations either side.
If ever there was a through North Main suburban service, the stations location would be ideal.

Yourself and Ethan have highlighted some strengths and weaknesses and certainly opportunities for the Newcastle rail network. Certainly there will be no new HR lines and likely just one route extension of the Newcastle tram.

I just wonder has the govt got a long-term vision for the Newcastle passenger rail system? Should a list of short, mid and long-term options be put together on how to make the system more viable. Certainly I agree there are a number of long gaps in the stations where people live, then in other locations we have stations in the middle of no where combined with an unfriendly train service frequency.

It is ridiculous that the southern trains from the Interchange leave within 10min of each other and there are only two per hour, I know this is due to the spacing's further south, but this is really waving the big figure to the users in the north end.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Thanks a6et, some interesting comments. and who knew there was a Morpeth in the UK.

Just quickly
Regarding the TAFE station option.
It could fit between Clyde Street and Sytx creek.
The point work east of the Clyde street LX can be easily moved to the west side as they are a legacy of a more complicated track layout.
The remaining cross over on the main can stay if it cannot be easily moved/removed. I assume its just used by the locos.
Clyde Street is a busy street which is perfect for access to a railway station.
No need for commuter carpark.
Station built on the railway ROW so no issue for the gas works.
It would then be spaced nicely around 1 - 1.2km from the stations either side.
If ever there was a through North Main suburban service, the stations location would be ideal.

Yourself and Ethan have highlighted some strengths and weaknesses and certainly opportunities for the Newcastle rail network. Certainly there will be no new HR lines and likely just one route extension of the Newcastle tram.

I just wonder has the govt got a long-term vision for the Newcastle passenger rail system? Should a list of short, mid and long-term options be put together on how to make the system more viable. Certainly I agree there are a number of long gaps in the stations where people live, then in other locations we have stations in the middle of no where combined with an unfriendly train service frequency.

It is ridiculous that the southern trains from the Interchange leave within 10min of each other and there are only two per hour, I know this is due to the spacing's further south, but this is really waving the big figure to the users in the north end.
RTT_Rules
RTT, I am not really that convinced of a need for the Tafe Station, as there is conveniently and very good buses that already stop outside the Tafe.  While its possible to build the station and as you say could be done, it would need a VG business case to justify the cost, when one looks at other potential users, its hard to see the very small housing area would attract many to use it.

I think ATM the half hourly daylight hour off peak trains are more than adequate for the overall commuting, we lived at Wadalba near Wyong for 7 1/2 years prior to coming here, and that is a station that seriously needs upgrading especially with extensions to the car park, they boast about a park being accessible away from the station but I would not use it owing to no security features.  The Eastern side car park could readily have an extra two floors put in and within time it would be also full.

The ridiculous new Kangi servicing centre is going to be a headache as it will mean a lot of extra empty movements between it and running through Tuggerah to start ex Wyong, had it been built in the industrial area as originally planned between Wyong and Warnervale, they terminate, and run to the centre with less empty running.

At this point of time, there is not enough residential developments on the Southern side to have a need for more than 2 trains an hour off peak, but there is a degree of them going in around Morriset Cooranbong, and Wyee also around the Warnervale area, I would see the prospect that Morriset could once again become a terminating station as well as Wyong.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Charlestown by itself and with no other nearby population centres means it will not be getting what the north west has received in a heavy rail line. Buses are the only PT option as that area is quite hilly is it not and so light rail really isn't an option.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Charlestown by itself and with no other nearby population centres means it will not be getting what the north west has received in a heavy rail line. Buses are the only PT option as that area is quite hilly is it not and so light rail really isn't an option.
simstrain
I can remember trams of old going up some steep grades in the Sydney Area. One in particular was the hill climb from the spit bridge up Parriwi rd back onto the spit road.  Trams also had to climb the hill from Bronte Beach and they were old technology types.

The problem with much of the Newcastle area especially the near suburbs is that its all hills, I went to JH hospital this morning on all stations service to Wickham and took note of the passengers getting on & off stations, the 0847 train front car was at least 65% full with 12 getting on at Vic St 5 at Metford at Thornton another 10 got on, 2 off, Beresfield 9 on 2 off, Tarro 3 on nil off, Hexham, nothing, Sandgate 1 on 1 off. Waratah had around 11+ on ? off, Hamiton no on, ? off but 2 from the front car I was in. At Wickham there would have been around 50 getting off some to the bus stop on Hunter and the one outside with several to the tram.

Buses were a 3 minute walk for Hunter st, I accidently got on run 12 that had Charleston via JH Hospital although 13 Glendale was 4 minutes behind and goes direct to JH.  I soon learnt my error as this was a new number for the route goes via Mayfield, Unit, Jesmond and then to JH, this however was interesting as it stopped on the old Pacific Hghwy at the end of Beaumont st, 2 got on and 2 off, we then had one stop further along, caught in 2 sets of traffic lights, and stopped at the Tafe entry, all of 4 minutes. Through the Uni one was picked up and one off, but two other private buses were also going through there along with one other Government one.

School holiday affect, there were few of school age I saw, while two sat near me, the uni car park was quite sparse though. So some of these figures may differ at different times, but I for one cannot see any extension for the LR line being of any real benefit.  The wonderful government we have and the most wonderful of all the Transport minister is not really interested in the Ncle lower Hunter area as its all Labor held seats, so he could not care as shown with the new TT introduced 1 July that cuts many services as Ethan mentioned and brought in buses by demand, but not much info out there to explain how it works.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Charlestown by itself and with no other nearby population centres means it will not be getting what the north west has received in a heavy rail line. Buses are the only PT option as that area is quite hilly is it not and so light rail really isn't an option.
I can remember trams of old going up some steep grades in the Sydney Area. One in particular was the hill climb from the spit bridge up Parriwi rd back onto the spit road.  Trams also had to climb the hill from Bronte Beach and they were old technology types.

The problem with much of the Newcastle area especially the near suburbs is that its all hills, I went to JH hospital this morning on all stations service to Wickham and took note of the passengers getting on & off stations, the 0847 train front car was at least 65% full with 12 getting on at Vic St 5 at Metford at Thornton another 10 got on, 2 off, Beresfield 9 on 2 off, Tarro 3 on nil off, Hexham, nothing, Sandgate 1 on 1 off. Waratah had around 11+ on ? off, Hamiton no on, ? off but 2 from the front car I was in. At Wickham there would have been around 50 getting off some to the bus stop on Hunter and the one outside with several to the tram.

Buses were a 3 minute walk for Hunter st, I accidently got on run 12 that had Charleston via JH Hospital although 13 Glendale was 4 minutes behind and goes direct to JH.  I soon learnt my error as this was a new number for the route goes via Mayfield, Unit, Jesmond and then to JH, this however was interesting as it stopped on the old Pacific Hghwy at the end of Beaumont st, 2 got on and 2 off, we then had one stop further along, caught in 2 sets of traffic lights, and stopped at the Tafe entry, all of 4 minutes. Through the Uni one was picked up and one off, but two other private buses were also going through there along with one other Government one.

School holiday affect, there were few of school age I saw, while two sat near me, the uni car park was quite sparse though. So some of these figures may differ at different times, but I for one cannot see any extension for the LR line being of any real benefit.  The wonderful government we have and the most wonderful of all the Transport minister is not really interested in the Ncle lower Hunter area as its all Labor held seats, so he could not care as shown with the new TT introduced 1 July that cuts many services as Ethan mentioned and brought in buses by demand, but not much info out there to explain how it works.
a6et
interesting comments both now and last night.

I'm a bit busy to discuss further in detail so will pick it up in a few days if there is any interest.
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner


RTT,  This particular topic frustrates me, as I have posted previously and attempted three previous replies on this topic over the last few days only to lose all of what I have said.

This is one of the most frustrating things on this site.  There's no time allowed to compose a detailed response and unless you post it quickly you lose everything. Moderators please take note.
a6et
  a6et Minister for Railways


RTT,  This particular topic frustrates me, as I have posted previously and attempted three previous replies on this topic over the last few days only to lose all of what I have said.

This is one of the most frustrating things on this site.  There's no time allowed to compose a detailed response and unless you post it quickly you lose everything. Moderators please take note.
Transtopic
Its something that's been going on for a while, and don't know if I am the only one who has the problem.

I now find the best option especially if replying at night is to C&P
post
the main to a Word processor and then and then make the reply beneath it, it also allows time to do checks on the topic as well.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE

RTT,  This particular topic frustrates me, as I have posted previously and attempted three previous replies on this topic over the last few days only to lose all of what I have said.

This is one of the most frustrating things on this site.  There's no time allowed to compose a detailed response and unless you post it quickly you lose everything. Moderators please take note.
Its something that's been going on for a while, and don't know if I am the only one who has the problem.

I now find the best option especially if replying at night is to C&P
post

the main to a Word processor and then and then make the reply beneath it, it also allows time to do checks on the topic as well.
a6et

Yes it times out after a while and goes to login page, just login and you should be ok.

My biggest bug is actually the random cutting of posts. You type in, press post and it just gets cut off at some random location. Cope and Paste into a new post, reposting, none of it works. Its like someone is saying, your quota of words is up. Plus side is I've learnt to stop trying and thus just give up on that thread and save alot of time (and others Smile) on a particular thread.
  a6et Minister for Railways


RTT,  This particular topic frustrates me, as I have posted previously and attempted three previous replies on this topic over the last few days only to lose all of what I have said.

This is one of the most frustrating things on this site.  There's no time allowed to compose a detailed response and unless you post it quickly you lose everything. Moderators please take note.
Its something that's been going on for a while, and don't know if I am the only one who has the problem.

I now find the best option especially if replying at night is to C&P
post
the main to a Word processor and then and then make the reply beneath it, it also allows time to do checks on the topic as well.

Yes it times out after a while and goes to login page, just login and you should be ok.

My biggest bug is actually the random cutting of posts. You type in, press post and it just gets cut off at some random location. Cope and Paste into a new post, reposting, none of it works. Its like someone is saying, your quota of words is up. Plus side is I've learnt to stop trying and thus just give up on that thread and save alot of time (and others Smile) on a particular thread.
RTT_Rules
Never have that happen, mostly its trying to post what you have typed up and then to find the message that the subject page is not recognised or does not exist, or the page refreshes itself and all what you have put in is lost.
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
@RTT_Rules
RTT_Rules
Since the Newcastle buses are now private? are the bus timetables still done by the same people as train timetables?
Ironically, it's the private timetable doing better with bus-train connections with routes 28 and 29 connecting with Sydney-bound express trains at Broadmeadow and Cardiff.
The old government-run routes and timetables were shaped like a donut with Cardiff in the centre and never connected with trains unless by pure coincidence.

I imagine signage and routes could be improved to make buses easy to navigate, but the biggest thing for me personally is how frequent and comprehensive services are;
while trains run on consistent frequency from early morning to late at night, you are lucky to get a service when the sun is down and if you do, it's very irregular,
meaning if I catch a train somewhere, I can be reasonably sure I can catch a train home even if I get held up, if I catch a bus somewhere, I don't have this assurance so I'm better off driving to avoid an expensive Uber ride home.

The route from the CBD to Charlestown is close enough to the railway line (but you wouldn't know it due to lack of stations), it's primarily the Belmont to Charlestown corridor that can justify steel wheel on rail (but admittedly, not Swansea unless it's a through route), the Charlestown to CBD route would primarily be to connect a Belmont service to the main line and run via an employment hub,
but no need to focus on a new line until the existing ones are fixed, you said it yourself,
Adamstown is an unpopular staton, but so are all the local stations along the electrified line, since service frequently is pathetic (1 per hour on weekdays, 1 per two hours on weekends), stations are inaccessible (Adamstown is actually miles ahead just by having a pedestrian crossing out the front), poor connections with the Hunter Line, and it's not wrong to say "if anything of interest is along a rail corridor in Newcastle, there is no station there".

Interesting observation on housing prices, probably because railway stations in Sydney are extremely useful to be within walking distance of,
whereas ones in Newcastle are of little use and primarily just provide nearby residents with train noise.

In terms of what you think mid-term improvements are, we are pretty much in full agreement, Newcastle doesn't anything too extravagant considering the decentralised employment opportunities and low density.
We do need more than just 1-2 new stations though (see full list below), and I would push for 20 minutes frequencies, 30 minutes is sufficient, but 20 minutes will attract more passengers.
And if the tram goes to the hospital, would it be possible to then extend south-east to Charlestown, crossing over and interchanging with the HR line at Garden Suburb

Regarding Toronto, as much as I would want to see the line continue to original the heritage listed station, having the line terminate west of Cary St, probably would be a cost effective compromise to avoid the costs of a bridge and underpass.
Still have Blackhalls park and build a couple of road bridges over the creeks to redirect to Cary St and avoid the former LX's at Facett St and Lake St.
Agreed on having every ex-Sydney/Central Coast service running express through the metropolitan area stopping only at Fassifern, Cardiff, and Newcastle Intg, with improved local services, there is probably no need to have express services to stop at Broadmeadow (unless for regional connections) or Hamilton due to their close proximity to Newcastle Intg, just as no interurban/intercity service should be stopping at Redfern in Sydney due to it's close proximity to Central.
The one benefit of continuing to the original station though would be the ability to have a rail-ferry interchange. But first fix local services on the existing line to judge numbers and if rebuilding Toronto is justifiable, reuse the overhead from the Carlingford Line for cheap electrification, assuming a 20 minute frequency, would it be possible for the line to be entirely single track to avoid the need for points or points, duplication, or passing loops?

I don't think the government has a long term plan at all for Newcastle passgner rail system or any PT for that matter, the governments only interest for PT is in Sydney and while Sydney needs the bulk of the focus since it needs large scale projects such as the metro,
not doing anything in Newcastle is not forward thinking at all, as I mentioned, not everyone can afford to live in Sydney, but many still need to live in cities (especially families) and Newcastle should be a logical choice for another place to live being NSW's second largest city, but with no usable PT which keeps cutting cut more and more, I wonder if a 'freight' line from Fassifern to Hexham could end passenger rail in Newcastle all together.

@a6et
a6et
Are you pressing 'submit' and being redirected to the log in screen? happens to me too, if I'm lucky, I can sometimes press the back button on my browser and get me post back, but this doesn't always work, so copying and pasting as you mentioned is the best way to go.

Looking into the reality and my enthusiasm, I strongly believe that people need to have a fair choice in where they live, Sydney is too expensive, so if people still need to live in a city,
Newcastle, NSW's second largest city with a 400K population, is cheaper but you will most likely need to pay a significant amount of money on car ownership,
the PT services are so bad that employers only like to hire people with cars, the problem with this is that, especially a young person with the extremely high insurance premiums, the only way to own a car is to come from a wealthy enough family who can afford to pay for all of the associated costs of your car BEFORE you are able to earn an income for yourself, come from a less wealthy family who can afford to buy your car but not pay your insurance premiums, then you are out of luck.

Anyway, onto stations;
    -The Mater Hospital station (call it 'Waratah West') would also serve the employees of the hospital, and also provide a station roughly half way between Warabrook and Waratah to fill a long gap between stations and provide an interchange point for buses - that 12 bus you accident crosses over the HR lines twice and never provides an interchange due to lack of stations.
    -The TAFE station (call it 'Islington') would mean Newcastle's largest two educational facilities are linked by rail, I know there are buses but consider the following scenarios:
         -Someone is travelling from the north, the train flies past their destination, they get off at Hamilton and need to change for a bus, their PT trip has just been made unnecessarily long and more expensive
         -Someone is travelling from the south, the alight at Hamilton and need to change for a bus, this makes their PT trip less convenient and more expensive
         -Someone is doing a night course (I'm not actually sure if there is night sure courses there, but assume there is), they finish when buses are either not running or providing a very limited services, meaning they need to walk 20 minutes to Hamilton station at night
    In all three scenarios, people are likely to just drive. The TAFE station shouldn't be that expensive either, since thanks to the LX, there is no need for an overbridge, allowances should still be made for one to be installed in future though in case the level crossing ever gets removed.

Regarding Cardiff station, I believe it should be moved WEST, towards Main Rd closer to the commercial area, I believe there should be another station at Garden Suburb immediately west of the Tickhole Tunnel to interchange with buses on the A37 to Charlestown and John Hunter Hospital. Cardiff Heights is a station I believe should be in between a relocated Cardiff and Garden Suburb station to half a long gap and serve an area difficult to serve by frequent buses.
hope that clears things up.

Regarding Cockle Creek and Glendale;
    -At Cockle Ck, some of the new residential development has already been constructed, that large roundabout is a killer though, it pretty much means that anyone living in the new residential development won't be able to walk or cycle to the station, nor can anyone cross the road from the bus stop on the opposite ride. That roundabout really needs to be a set of traffic lights with another set of traffic lights at the entrance to the car park to solve the 'no right turn' issue you mentioned and provide safe access between the station and the bus stop.
    -At Glendale, a stub road already exists which is meant to lead to a future station and road bridge to the Cardiff industrial area, there might be room to squeeze in a commuter car park but there is really no need for one here as it would be a destination station. Would be important to swap a few of those roundabouts for traffic lights though.
Roundabouts are terrible for pedestrian safety which means they are terrible for PT users safety, when it comes to stations, the most important means of access to consider is that for people walking or cycling to the station, then it's bus connections, and finally then it's commuter car parks.

Regarding the July 1 bus changes, not only is there much info on how the on demand buses work, there is completely misleading information being spread, one person asked in a comment on Newcastle Transport's facebook page if they could use their Opal card, to which they relied they could, and then they put up a video advertising the on-demand service with the caption "Grab your Opal card and give it a go", not one mention at all that the on-demand service charges a completely separate fare than normal services with no caps or transfer discounts, your opal card is essentially just a 'load&' go debit card for the on-demand service.

-------
Quickly, a list of what new stations are needed:
    -Kotara: in the commercial area, providing reliable PT access to many jobs, and linking the residential are on the northern side of the rail line which currently divides the area.
    -Garden Suburb: providing interchange for buses on the A37 to John Hunter Hospital and Charlestown
    -Cardiff Heights: halfving a long gap between stations and providing service to an area difficult to serve by frequent buses
    -Glendale: serving a commercial area and providing reliable access PT access to many jobs.
    -Argenton: serving the residential are adjacent to Glendale - might be a little too close to justify
    -Islington: serving the Newcatle TAFE and surrounding areas, and halving a long gap between stations
    -Waratah West: serving the Mater Hospital and surrounding areas, and halving a long gap between stations

And a list of what stations need access improvements to made usable
    -Hamitlon: needs a pedestrian crossing over the busy Beaumont St, there is already one across the quiet Fern St, how does this happen?
    -Broadmeadow: would benefit from a raised concourse connecting it to Lambton Rd
    -Existing Kotara: south entrance needs vegetation removed and re-pavement, it's isolated and dark and people don't feel safe using it, a pedestrian link to Blackbutt Reserve 0.4m north is required
    -Cardiff: needs to be moved closer to the commercial area
    -Cockle Ck: roundabout needs replacing with traffic lights and another set of lights needed at the car park
    -Booragul: needs a pedestrian link to the new housing development
    -Sandgate: needs pedestrian access on the east side
  a6et Minister for Railways

I don't intend to comment on much of what you have said except to say, you had a dig at me when I replied to one of your earlier posts by reminding me of the title of this blog, dare I suggest you have a look at the posts that you have put up compared to those I have?  I have primarily replied to post without starting them and tried to keep what I have said on the right track.

So, as for the cost of living, the only area that Sydney is more expensive than Newcastle is in the housing area, in fact by the time you work out the generally a lot more cheaper petrol, most food items and even PT now with new weekly ratings for Opal use I would say that overall the only way things are cheaper up in this neck of the woods is with housing, but that also depends on where you choose to live.

I have yet to see any sort of numbers to support your argument on any of the proposals you have submited, while it may well have some enthusiastic ideas and desires, you have to come and face the fact of reality vses the unreality of those areas. For NCLE area,

How many of the staff at the Mater do you think would use rail if a station could be built there?  Go and have a look at the geophical aspect of how much room there is opposite the old steel factory  before the coal roads go under the main line.
You mention the aspect of how many students would use and how much further it would take to catch the train to Hamilton, walk and bus to the TAFE, how many use what is there already.

The round a bout at Cockle Creek and replace it with traffic lights for what advantage? And it is no hazard for turning buses as there are several that surely use it to run down to Toronto and lets not forget the one a Glendale shopping center entry and between the CC one and Toronto.  If all access to and from a new car pack at CC station along with extended platform would be a huge improvement if and when the new suburb is opened and built on.

You would have to be joking wanting to move the existing Cardif station to the west, I assume you meant closer to Glendale on the large curved section of track, from what I know of that area, from the main road underbridge and nearly down to the old Sulphide station line sits atop a high embankment that does not have a lot of room each side, to get to the existing commercial area is less than 5 minutes walk from the station, but how many would use the Woolies store there as against Glendale?

Interestingly I have sat at the JH hospital and watched several buses that go to Cardif and via Cardif heights, there is a direct road off the bypass that goes down Cardif Road and Main Rd right past Cardif station, and of interest is that there is nearly as much greened area's around there as there is housing, likewise trying to then fit two new stations between Cardif and Tickhole, is an fantasy as you may get a passenger a day at them.

Boragool station is having a new pedestrian access to the new estate, something I had mentioned some feeds back, our daughter is builing in there.

How many stations does the sections from Fassifern and BMD have and over what length of track?  The answer is 8 stations over an overall distance of 20.63 Km's an average of 2.57875 between them, if you and your two extra stations and leaving out the Kotara shopping one, what is then the average.  The longest sections are Cockle Ck - Cardiff at 4.45Km and then Fassi - Booragol of 4.08 Km's  then Cardif to Kotara 3.84.

Also the aspect that needs consideration is that of housing density along that line. Which when looked at realistically that 20 odd kilometres of track with 8 stations probably has more stations than is found along the majority of the Sydney network.

I would also suggest that the real reason behind the lack of stopping trains is the simple aspect that even when there is/was a half hourly service none of those stations with the exception of Cardif warrants a basically all stations service, was not all that long ago really when connecting trains at Morriset were there, but removed because of lack of patronage.

Lastly BMD access to Lambton Road, sounds a good idea, but that used to be the access point for the station as the stairs were there and booking office, it was removed as the result of many complaints about the ped crossing at the entry, along with the bus stops on each side, making it a big congested & dangerous area, and well helped by cars stopping to let out people to catch the trains.

As I have said, why not get a team of enthusiastic people and go around those areas, especially those you want to have new stations for and survey them and see how many would actually use those new stations and services if they were to be done.
  gw0071 Deputy Commissioner

4 pages?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Cockle creek is only a 4 car platform and so maybe it should be extended to the east of lake road to make an 8 car platform with entries on both sides of lake road. There would be scope then to widen lake road to 2 lanes in each direction and put in some rail loops/passing lanes so express trains can pass all stoppers at this point.

I know there is a push for glendale but I just don't see the reasoning for it.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Cockle creek is only a 4 car platform and so maybe it should be extended to the east of lake road to make an 8 car platform with entries on both sides of lake road. There would be scope then to widen lake road to 2 lanes in each direction and put in some rail loops/passing lanes so express trains can pass all stoppers at this point.

I know there is a push for glendale but I just don't see the reasoning for it.
simstrain
Sims, Cockle Ck is a sort of interesting station its likely the closest (depending on where on the Lake side you come from) to any really major suburban locations, and with the old Pasminco site undergoing huge rehabilitation works which has potentially a lot of homes but gee its been a long time in the process now.  The other aspect as I have mentioned is the green areas, and that includes a large number of sporting fields and the like at Speers Point, which takes a lot of activities on weekends and at holiday times for locals.

Heading on the other side of the station though is again a large golf course and smallish residential area of Argenton and Glendale, old suburbs and its only once you get to Edgeworth and to the west that there is more residential areas..

With the station itself, there is more than enough room to expand the platforms to accommodate even the new interurbans that are supposed to be longer than what's in use now.  The old collieries had their own access across the creek with piers still seen, and there was two tracks there IIRC, and watering facilities for steam at the NCLE end of the down platform.  The tracks used to go pretty well all the way to Sulphide IIRC, that land and ROW would still be owned by the Government, so having a passing loop is feasible but where does one put the entry unless its straight off the bridge, but if the platform was extended it could continue towards Sulphide with the station being incorporated with the road bridge piers.

With the old ROW that could readily have a western side road approach alongside that track and a carpark down towards the creek area built there with access back onto the main road to head west. The Lake or Eastern side could have access to the up side car park by the large roundabout that will be the Southern access to the new estate areas and as I said previously both entry and exit onto it. Currently there are 4 road points of it, but one more is not going to affect it that much.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Back again, Ok my view

Hunter Line
- 30min timetable with a few extras thrown in peak is acceptable.

- Current train spacing of 27min apart departing and 33min arriving due to minor stations being skipped is acceptable.

- Station spacing, there needs to be two extra stations as Hamilton to Waratah and to Warrabrook station spacing is over 2.4km apart and this through an area where there is potential traffic catchment and destination. In a small city trains will be avoided if they don't go where you want and frequently enough. Such standards exist in Sydney. To say people can just transfer to a bus means you will loose them to cars. short train then short bus ride, forget it, I'l drive.  Both Warabrook and Waratah generate a reasonable volume of bi-directional traffic so think how much more this line could support if the service was improved.
1. Clyde Street station for the TAFE and other traffic
2. Maud Street station for the local industries and housing
Construction of both stations is straightforward and low cost.

- No comment on the stations currently skipped, if they are so rarely used, 1hrly is enough.

Through traffic from Newcastle Line to Hunter Line
- After serious consideration, this is not needed for the foreseeable future. The numbers getting off on the Hunter Line at Waratah and Warrabrook assume to be the bulk of those transferring don't justify it. Alot of growth would need to be generated before this could be considered.

- However transfer at Hamilton should be simplified to cross platform. Newcastle Interchange is a further 4min in each direction, so adding 8min to the trip.

- Hunter trains should be timed as much as possible to enable quick changes at Hamilton with southern trains in both directions, not 29min waits, typical of Brisbane on some lines.

Newcastle Line
- The current timetable is unacceptable and designed to pi$$ people off. You may as well say its a 1h timetable to even the express stations and likely part of the cause of the poor ridership. Should be 30min all stations Fassifern to Newcastle using one local train, an all stopper to Gosford and with the express to Sydney making up the 3rd train.

- The local train could run to Morriset, but there is no 3rd platform to stable off the main and Fassifern has this almost ready to go, plus the southern limit of most of the demand anyway and operationally its 30min all stops, then allows time to be flexible to fit in with others. So cost wise I think this will sit better with the govt.

Station spacing,
- Broadmedows to Adamstown is 1.9km, but not alot in the middle anyway.
- Adamstown to Kotara is 2.2km long and I think potentially another station is justified next to the Kotara mall with easy access to Northcott road.
- Kotara to Cardiff, over 3km as the crow flys, however potentially a station in the middle may not have a large catchment as it would seem. The most obvious location is south of Charlestown Road where the tracks are spaced apart for the short tunnels. The issue is there is alot of green either side, but it does provide a short direct bus hop to Charlestown.
- Cardiff to Cockle Creek is also over 3.5km, with the proposed Glendale. Yes a station could be built at the end of Montgomery street, but it won't be cheap as the access from both sides is lacking. I think the numbers may support it, but the industrial side and shopper centre are a bit of an unknown quantity. Again I think longerterm is maybe justified.

Hard to know if chicken or the egg, but the surrounding population of Adamstown appears similar to that of Broadmeadow and Waratah, yet the ridership is pathetic, is it because it gets one train an hour so close to the city?

Fassifern, reopen platform 3 as a terminus station for locals.

Pedestrian access to a number of stations needs improvement.

The S bend at Cardiff should be removed, by using the siding corridor past the glass factory, more for the through trains to keep speeds up.

Reuse of old railway corridors,
Most are buried under roads and houses so these are no longer an option.
Belmont line is mostly away from the population base apart from where its close to the mainline, so no it won't be coming back.

Tram extension
Before drawing lines on maps, we need to remember they won't build trams like they used to and this includes street running is treated like splitting EMU's for off-peak, ie won't happen in general. It also costs around $80-100M/km so they will want to make sure its actually used.

Extension to Broadmeadow may actually be viable as it forms a triangle of rail PT through one of the few built up areas of Newcastle and a further extension to near the foot ball stadium and surrounding suburbs if it can be made to work is the likely most logical extension within the next 20 years.

Running to Mayfield, why? There is a railway, the extra station would help do the same and its high cost.

It would appear the hospital is equally off the table as this would be a near $1B exercise, likewise Charlestown.

Toronto Line
Potential extension to Toronto Cary street is an option I'd park for now until the rest is resolved. The more destinations the local rail network has the more it will be used. Also if this was done then both the Sydney trains would be switched to express between Newcastle and Fassifern as you will need two locals. Again this is a low cost extension. short platforms, no shunting points etc required, single track.

Now overall some people will question the cost of the extra stations and bus transfers could do the job, well the same could be said about the Newcastle tram and as I said before, placing too much reliance on bus-train interchange for short runs leads to PT failure, not success. if the railway is there, its active, trains are running, the location is low cost, then build it!
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
a6et
a6et

Sorry if you felt like I was having a dig at you. I know you made a previous reply that I felt where you were primarily talking about outer-suburban commuting mentioning growth in Wyee and parking issues at Gosford, touching very little on local PT which I was trying to point out that this is what this topic is primarily about. Anyway, sorry if you felt like I was having a dig at you.

I agree with you about the cost of living and how the only thing Newcastle is cheaper than Sydney in is housing, the problem arises when housing in Sydney is far too expensive for most, meaning people who need city life (for families for example) will be forced to live in places like Newcastle where they are going to pay more for food, petrol, and car ownership.
PT can somewhat solve this, young people can get a job before they get a car (and then get one if they choose too without needing their family to be wealthy enough to pay their insurance premiums), in my experience in Sydney also is that many cheaper services come out of small businesses which rely on foot traffic, and I can't see those sort of businesses working in a car-dependent environment where the passing trade is in the suburban shopping centre with rents too high for small businesses.

No usable PT like this has ever existed in Newcastle before, so there is no way of getting numbers, I do in reality there is very little chance of getting stations at Cardiff Heights or Argenton, but the TAFE station, Kotara commercial area station, Garden Suburb interchange station, and Glendale station, along with improved access to the existing stations should be a no-brainers, local services that bypass local destinations is never going to work.

The Maud St station wouldn't just serve Mater staff, it would serve the entire surrounding area and provide a station in between the long cap between Warabrook and Waratah,
as for the TAFE station, I can speak from experience as I have studied, I always saw many students alighting from the buses, but in my class most drove, one person lived right near Teralba station but they were a busy person and said they didn't catch the train because they didn't have time (can't blame them with no tafe station and we finished class at 3:30 with the all-stops leaving at Hamitlon 3:36 and the next at 4:36), another person lived in Warabrook and drove, another lived in Beresfield and drove, another in Toronto and drove.
Not only does it take more time to take a bus from Hamilton after taking the train, it's more expensive too, further turning people off, we really should have point to point PT fares, instead of transfer discounts.

The advantage of replacing the roundabout at Cockle Ck would be to allow pedestrians to safely access the station, have you ever tried to cross the road at a large multi-lane roundabout? I have and it's terrifying, a car that's been going around the roundabout and turning off and one just entering the roundabout to turn rights looks exactly the same with a right blinker on, there is no way to tell if it's safe to cross. Someone living in the new residential area should not have to drive 0.5km to the station just because they can't cross the road.
Definitely fix the access to the car park and expand, no need to extend the platform though, and I will explain below when repying to simstrain.
Replace the roundabout with traffic lights at the entrance to Stockland Glendale as well, might as well have a sign saying 'no pedestrians allowed' if it's going to stay a roundabout. I'm not too sure about the one between CC and Toronto, will need to look into it.

Yes I want Cardiff station moved to the west (and so do the developers), if we kept the hairpin curve, then yes, on the curve, but I agree with RTT_Rules about straightening said turn using the siding corridor past the glass factory, doing so would mean a straight alignment through the commercial area and a convenient location for a station.

A station at Garden Suburb would not just be an interchange for John Hunter Hospital, but also Charlestown (a subrub with greater turnover than the CBD) to the south.

Good to know Booragul is getting pedestrian access, now it just needs a proper service.

Regarding density, the stations and service needs to come first and then the density will follow, as stated in a Herald article I linked before, developers want the new stations, they suggested the TAFE station, a station between Broadmeadow and Adamstown (I can not see at all how this could be justified though), a station in the Kotara commercial area, a station in the Cardiff commercial area (they identified the existing station as weak for development. alongside Cockle Ck), Glendale station, and a station at Argenton.
In Sydney, the suburbs didn't get dense and then we built a rail line through, we built the rail lines and stations 100 years ago and the areas got dense around them.

Previous patronage can not be used as an counter-argument to service improvements, since the stations are accessible and not in the right places.

If the previous Lambton Rd access was dangerous, then there needs to be an improved design, not just leaving the platforms sitting in suburbia with no access to the commercial areas.

Surveying locals and ask why they don't use their local station would be a good idea.

simstrain
simstrain
There is no need to extend the platforms at Cockle Ck, if a train longer than the platform is stopping there, it's a symptom of a big problem of there not being sufficient local services so they need to slow down Sydney services to provide extra service, Cockle Ck is a local station and should be served by local trains.
You could definitely put in some passing loops though, historically the station had 4 platforms so there is more than enough room as a6et pointed out, you might even be able to turn the existing platform 2 into an island platform to save money on station access.

Interesting that a6et pointed out the potential for Cockle Ck with houses and weekend destinations, I would say the same for the exsting Kotara station, loads of houses around the area, Blackbutt Reserve is 0.4km north of the station and is a very popular destination for locals on weekends, but in typical Newcastle fashion, there is no pedestrian access to this location that has NO PT, not even buses, not even a footpath or a pedestrian crossing so someone can walk.
Similar case for stations at shopping centres, some might say that stations at shopping centres are not needed because most people want to drive to take home shopping (I guess people without cars don't matter), but they are also locations where a large number of people work in one places, and more specifically to this topic, they are lesuire destination on weekends containing attractions like cinemas and restaurants.

But forget any weekend patraonge with current service frequencies, it's one train every 2 hours!

RTT_Rules
RTT_Rules
Well we are pretty much in agreement with most of what you have said, certainly a far cry form when this topic first started, why the change? either way I'm happy.

30 minute frequencies are acceptable and would make me happy, but I would still push for 20 minute frequencies inside the metropolitan area (which I would say is Fassifern and Sandgate) to have the best chance of attracting passengers. Hourly is unacceptable and 2-hourly is just pathetic, local stations on the electrified line only get a 2-hourly service on weekends.

No need to worry about Glendale station coming off the end of Montgomery St though, there is already a stub road behind the shopping centre waiting for a station, all you would need off Montgomery St is a walking/cycling path to feed the station:



I would say service frequency and the other stations limit patronage at Adamstown, it's hourly (a few extra in peak) on weekdays, and 2-hourly on weekends - unusable. Connections with the Hunter Line a poor and any other destination alongside the rail line has no station.
There is nothing wrong with the station itself, it even has lifts now, and a pedestrian crossing out the front - a major milestone a railway station in Newcastle, only beaten by Waratah which was a pedestrian crossing with traffic light.

Regarding tram extention, what about Wallsend? wherever the tram gets extended to should be far from the HR lines for greatest rail catchment. I heard one claim that there are plans to extend it to the University - WHY?????

I would also throw in the fact that there should be a dedicated fleet of local trains for Newcastle and Wollongong, something similar to an electric Hunter Railcar would be perfect.

I would also agree to fix what we have now before considering rebuilding Toronto, I still also think there should be a new Belmont line on a new alignment running via Charlestown (you might be able to use a few parts of the old alignment at Kotara and Belmont iself), but that's a long way off as first we need to fix what we have now, and that will give us a true idea on numbers and how many would use any new lines.

Overall, the cost of new stations, new access, and new bus network (which would also be needed to support new stations) is minuscule compared to what is spend on Sydney, and that is exactly how it should be, a large chunk of the PT budget spend on Sydney with a tiny portion spent on Newcastle, it only annoys me when they don't spend a cent on Newcastle and won't fix the issues we have now.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
I agree with you about the cost of living and how the only thing Newcastle is cheaper than Sydney in is housing, the problem arises when housing in Sydney is far too expensive for most, meaning people who need city life (for families for example) will be forced to live in places like Newcastle where they are going to pay more for food, petrol, and car ownership.
PT can somewhat solve this, young people can get a job before they get a car (and then get one if they choose too without needing their family to be wealthy enough to pay their insurance premiums), in my experience in Sydney also is that many cheaper services come out of small businesses which rely on foot traffic, and I can't see those sort of businesses working in a car-dependent environment where the passing trade is in the suburban shopping centre with rents too high for small businesses

The cost of living bench mark for Sydney is $7600/mth vs the Newcastle at $6050/mth, yes salaries are in many industries lower but considering the cost of living is in post tax dollars you would need to earn nearly $3000/mth less in Newcastle to be worse off and this on a median or lower salary is unlikely to have such a difference.  

Basically if you choose live in Newcastle, you can afford a car to drive to work where PT is not suitable and most people in Sydney still own a car and car is still the mode of choice to travel to work in Sydney.

Your location for Glendale is right on the junction for the two sidings either side of the line, you need to move south more.

Cockle Creek Round about, local councils hate traffic lights, they are costly and accidents that occur are more deadly. You either move the pedestrian crossing away from the round about so drivers have time to see you and stop or you build an over pass.

As for tram to Wallsend, unless the road is wide enough to take two lanes of traffic for a dedicated tram way, no.

 
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Glendale just isn't going to happen. That stub will sit there for all eternity unless it will be used as an alternative entry for trucks to access the loading docks of the shopping centre. The other side is just industrial and a 200 metre cockle creek with new connections is actually a much better option. Unless the EDI facility goes bust there is no chance a train station can even be built there.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Oh, the previously mentioned Cockle Creek to 4 platforms won't happen. It was 4 plats which included two for the old bridge and branch line in place, not to the Nth Main. If I recall collectedly.
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
@RTT_Rules
@RTT_Rules

I'm aware of the fact that most people in Sydney still own a car (and most couples own two) but it's perfectly reasonable for the car to come post-employment,
in Newcastle, in most situations, the car, all it's expenses, and the exorbitant insurance premium for the young has to come pre-employment,
placing a significant financial burden on families, and placing less wealthy people at a significant disadvantage.
Acceptable in a rural town, unacceptable in a city of 400K with half-done infrastructure.

Looking at the satellite pictures closer, the platforms would need to go a little further west immediately before the junction into EDI. Could still use the existing stub road though. Either construct a bus turning bay or connect to Montgomery St as you mentioned, the former would mean quicker through bus services connecting at the station, but I'm not sure how happy locals would be.

Interesting point about traffic light accidents being more deadly than roundabout accidents.
But wouldn't placing pedestrian crossings away from the intersection lead to circuitous pedestrian routes which would lead to PT failure?
Railway stations in Sydney are almost always in a walkable environment with direct pedestrian crossings and no large roundabouts.

AFAIK the road from the CBD to Wallsend would be wide enough to accomodate 2 traffic lanes and LR tracks.
Regardless, it's important that wherever the tram goes, it should be where the railway doesn't go to provide the greatest catchment to rail travel.
Extending through Broadmeadow to the stadium would be nice but it's also close to the railway.

I never suggested converting Cockle Ck to 4 platforms, I was just pointing out that it historically had 4 platforms so it's possible to run extra tracks through as passing loops and convert the existing platform 2 into an island platform, which would make the track running past the existing platform 1 a passing loop.
The old extra platforms were for the old branch to West Wallsend.

@simstrain
simstrain

Glendale is needed, as RTT_Rules pointed out, short train rides + short bus rides lead to PT failure and losing people to cars, which would be the case if it instead of building a station at a significant local destination (Glendale), people were expected to take a short bus trip parallel to the railway.
Neither Cockle Ck or Glendale would need a 200M platform as they would be local stations served by local trains which would ideally be 2-3 carriages and single deck (basically a Hunter Railcar EMU).
  a6et Minister for Railways

Oh, the previously mentioned Cockle Creek to 4 platforms won't happen. It was 4 plats which included two for the old bridge and branch line in place, not to the Nth Main. If I recall collectedly.
RTT_Rules
you are correct re the platforms RTT
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Oh, the previously mentioned Cockle Creek to 4 platforms won't happen. It was 4 plats which included two for the old bridge and branch line in place, not to the Nth Main. If I recall collectedly.
you are correct re the platforms RTT
a6et

I never said 4 platforms. I said a bypass loop so freight and express can overtake all stoppers. 2 platforms but 3-4 tracks.

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